The Instigator
sugarplum034
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
John-Locke
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

All Americans are mandated to stand for the pledge of allegiance (in school, ceremonies, etc.)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/12/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,471 times Debate No: 1746
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (8)

 

sugarplum034

Pro

We're in America, are we not? The least one can do as a citizen, or resident, or immigrant to the United States is raise themselves out of their seats for the Pledge of Allegiance. While I think it should be mandatory to recite the pledge, I understand not everyone believes in what it says (God, One nation, etc.) But to not even give the flag any respect is especially heinous, especially in today's society where patriotism is one of the only things we have to hold our country together in the so-called "War on Terror"
John-Locke

Con

i agree that people should try and get together and work against the "war on terror." But you made a very good point right off the bat. "We're in America, are we not?" And because we're in america, doesn't that mean right there that we as a people are served with the right to freedom of speech and expression? I agree that the people have a right to choose what they want to do to represent themselves and their believing in their country. so long as they're not blatantly telling everyone "the pledge is stupid, you shouldn't do it, you're an idiot/follower/tool etc." they should maintain their first amendment right to doing as they want how they want.
In short. As "Un-American" as it may seem, the people have the right by the first amendment of Constitution, weather it be by staying seated or by standing for it, people have rights to hear the pledge and do what they want.
Debate Round No. 1
sugarplum034

Pro

"And because we're in america, doesn't that mean right there that we as a people are served with the right to freedom of speech and expression?"
On the contrary, in order to even be granted all of these rights and freedoms that come with our country, you must show some degree of loyalty. The pledge is a simple verse that symbolizes a belief in a nation free and united, founded on revolutionary Democratic ideals and freedom of choice.

"I agree that the people have a right to choose what they want to do to represent themselves and their believing in their country"
As I said, this freedom does come at a small price, and that is reciprocation in that the citizens themselves support America as America supports them in their needs and wants. It is quite selfish and hypocritical to reap all the benefits of being an America, and then deny the respect that the flag of your country deserves.
John-Locke

Con

"On the contrary, in order to even be granted all of these rights and freedoms that come with our country, you must show some degree of loyalty." with that idea, the degree of this country has been reduced to some sort of cult. to say that you must recite a prayer basically, each and every day, to prove your citizenship sounds a little absurd. we cant go telling people they're not citizens for not reciting the pledge when we give free hand outs. we give welfare to poor citizens who wont ever get off it. unemployment is one thing, people who are not unproductive but down on their luck and looking for a new job (at a highly reduced rate mind you) should be commended and helped along. People who have been on welfare for their entire working career and possibly before hand, how can we say its fair? they're drains on the economy, and should be kept from being citizens. The fact that they pledge each day to the country and its plight, that they'll do what they must to make it better is a lie. by that reality, people from other countries that just manage to get in, not even necessarily under legal conditions, can make the argument for it as well... its far to lax. there are exams and ways to get to be a citizen.

there are far to manny ways to prove that there are manny citizens who don't believe in the american way, working hard to get to the top. a society where they could move up and down with our own social mobility, making their own way. the drawing up of a pledge each day was just to spot out spies during the red scare. to have it today is sort of absurd... people have sort of elevated it to a new level. for those who get something from it, some sort of spiritual way, its good. but for those who don't want to because they don't have to, because as their views go, its not important. They have the right to say no. They have the right to stay seated.
Debate Round No. 2
sugarplum034

Pro

"to say that you must recite a prayer basically, each and every day, to prove your citizenship sounds a little absurd."
First of all, this cannot be deemed as a prayer, because it has no religious affiliation whatsoever. To say that we are 'Under God' is not actually a connotation of religion, but rather a general encompassing of all sects and religions, or lack thereof under one unified nation. The pledge is meant to make people feel connected as one, not isolated or divided. I think most people are missing the true meaning of what the Pledge Of Allegiance is. It is a pledge for your allegiance to the country that provides what you need to sustain life, it is the country where you reside and are making a name for yourself, however much you may love or hate it. Either way, it is still the country in which you live and the least you could do it pledge your allegiance, however temporary, to it.

"we cant go telling people they're not citizens for not reciting the pledge when we give free hand outs"
I'm not saying anything about revoking citizenship. However, there are millions of people dying to become citizens of the United States that can't became of immigrant specifications and regulations, and how is it fair that the people who are lucky enough to be granted this citizenship are taking it for granted by not even having the common decency to STAND for the pledge? I'm not being unreasonable hear, and, god forbid asking them to recite the pledge. I understand that some people have moral disagreements with what the Pledge actually says. But standing is another thing. Standing is just a symbol that, as a citizen of a free nation, you are willing to sacrifice some for the good of the country. That is what America is, or is supposed to be.

"The fact that they pledge each day to the country and its plight, that they'll do what they must to make it better is a lie"
It is this attitude exactly that causes more people to lapse into a mindset of apathy. If the pledge is optional, it will eventually die out and no one will have any motivation. It is a symbol, yes, and however powerful or not powerful it has become, it is still there to serve it's purpose. That is a principle, the principle of loyalty. The principle of pledging to a country whose purpose was to provide for the people, by the people.

As the preamble states, "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."

pos�ter�i�ty (p-str-t)
n. 1. Future generations

If not for ourselves, let us do it for the future of America.
John-Locke

Con

see what i dont understand, you keep talking about how you want people to feel for the country and you want people to really have some pride. you said that you think this will help promote some sort of idea that will continue onto our children.

these were the ideas what came about when it was first started and was practicaly manditory. the pledge came about as a defence against communism (which i think i might have already made note of) the point is, we came up with it a while back and thought the same ideas you're talking about now. the fact that they didnt hold true, means that they're probably not going to hold true for the future, or for our own children. as the time goes by, you realize its not the same, you dont feel the same for your country, or its not manditory or nessisary for you to do so, you just dont want to. as that apethy grows for the pledge, lots of other loves about the country continue, such as watching or voting in primaries or elections. or talking about the current events or how you feel on almost any topic. the usage and deffence of one's constitutional rights, i feel, is much more important than any little prayer to show people that we dont have to be scared, to show that we're united.

we're united for ourselfs i feel, as a people. we want our freedoms and we defend them our own way.

this debate is all first amendment. regardless of whether or not everyone should stand for the pledge as a sign of respect to say the least, we cant force it because it doesnt infringe upon anyone else's rights. and as citizens (Which you clearly stated they were) you cant take that right away from them or pass any laws against it.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Redman 9 years ago
Redman
Actually sugarplum, no one MUST show loyalty in this country: all that do who really are in dissent are usually pressured into it by their peers, because most individuals are not strong enough to stand up for their opinions. The people may act however they choose to. People must show loyalty to established law, or they are thrown in prison by the majority. But no one HAS to recite the pledge of allegiance. To be made to do this would be unconstitutional: read the 14th amendment. If you want an example, look at Jehovah Witnesses. They worship no objects, like a flag. That is there right in the purest sense of freedom.
Posted by 08tsuchiyar 9 years ago
08tsuchiyar
Question....did you ask them if they were illegal? How do you know that information is correct? Just wondering if you were making assumptions or if you were sure cause I hate xenophobia!

BTW those same people died for the right not to say the pledge....nobody should have to say it....should is another matter.
Posted by NickUnderwood 9 years ago
NickUnderwood
WHAT!! of course EVERYONE should have to stand! i dont care if you are from america or not it is respect for our country and the ppl who died for it! and i noticed at my school that most mexicans do not say the pledge, well most of them are illegal but there is nothing more that could make me more upset then to see a illegal mexican not standing for OUR pledge while my family is gone to war so that they may live here and we pay for it!
Posted by 08tsuchiyar 9 years ago
08tsuchiyar
At least take the "under God" part out....
Posted by buttercupx224 9 years ago
buttercupx224
While I agree that everyone ought to say the pledge, I disagree that the should have too. It is wrong for people to be required to say the pledge. When you stand up to say the pledge, it is because you want to, not because you have to. Saying the pledge is a declaration that you are a proud American and have faith in your country. If the pledge is required, it loses its meaning. If the government today went to those legnths to promote patriotism, Our country wouuld essentially become totalitarian.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"According to the first amendment, all Americans have the right to freedom if speech, press, petition, religion and expression."

Uh, not exactly. The Constitution is often read this way, but it's an inaccurate reading.

Being a member of the press doesn't absolve me of wrongly reporting something. Claiming something as a religion doesn't absolve the consequences. Claiming freedom of speech doesn't absolve one of culpability for what they say. Nor were any of the above intended by the framers.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"because it clearly says in the constitution that these rights are granted by our creator, not our country."

Really? The Constitution says this? Please do point me to where this is written in the Constitution. I've read the darn thing multiple times, and I just must have missed that gem as you seem so certain it's there.
Posted by Yraelz 9 years ago
Yraelz
Sugarplum034 please send me an invite to debate this with you. I would very much enjoy this one.
Posted by buttercupx224 9 years ago
buttercupx224
oops, i meant to say of, not if
Posted by buttercupx224 9 years ago
buttercupx224
According to the first amendment, all Americans have the right to freedom if speech, press, petition, religion and expression. By that, if a certain individual doesn't want to stand for the pledge, they are exercising their right to expression. So, by defying the first amendment, you place yourself in a state of paradox because defying basic rights and laws in our country is actually minimizing patriotism.
So, basically you just contradicted yourself.
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by beem0r 9 years ago
beem0r
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