The Instigator
Geekis_Khan
Pro (for)
Losing
27 Points
The Contender
JTSmith
Con (against)
Winning
39 Points

All elected and appointed government officials should be paid minimum wage.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/15/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,842 times Debate No: 3649
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (18)

 

Geekis_Khan

Pro

This is just a different take on the minimum wage issue. This isn't about raising or lowering it, although this resolution could have that effect.

Since this isn't about whether minimum wage is good or bad, I'll ask that my opponent not run a critique, saying that minimum wage shouldn't be used at all. That is not the point of this debate.

The central idea of the PRO is that government officials are the ones who determine what the minimum wage is. The minimum wage is supposed to be the minimum amount of money that one can live off of.

In that line of think, if these people are the ones who say that this is enough to live off of, then they should live off of it.

I'd also like to point out that for the purposes of this debate, we are not talking about government employees that are hired. We are only referring to elected and appointed officials.

I will wait to see what points the CON brings up against this before actually building more of a case.

Good luck to whomever decides to accept this challenge.
JTSmith

Con

JTSmith forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 1
Geekis_Khan

Pro

Well, he forfeited, so I'll just give a few erasons to vote PRO, and hope he replies next round.

First, I extend the idea that people who say that minimum wage is enopugh to live off of should live off of it.

Now I'll address onne of the problems commonly associated with raising minimum wage and show why it doesn't apply: inflation.

The problem is that when we raise wages, prices go up, so they cancel each other out.

But when we follow this resolution, we are giving our representatives a direct incentive to find a balance. They'll want to have wages that aren't negated by inflation. Therefore, it will continued to be altered until a a balanced has been achieved. They'll want to achieve a balance because it is directly affecting them.

This will ultimately have a huge positive effect on those living off of minimum wage.

The transition period might be tough, but ultimately, it will get better.
JTSmith

Con

First, I'd like to apologize for bailing on you the last round. I was visiting my fianc´┐Ż for a week and didn't have time. Poor judgment in thinking I could make time for debate.org…lol

Now, on to your points. I can definitely understand where you're coming from and the idea sounds like a fun kick in the pants to certain elected officials. The truth is, however, that this would be very impractical and unfair.

I will list the problems below.

1.No one is going to want to run for office. We need these officials. Their positions are absolutely required for success, and if we don't pay them enough, their not gunna run for office. We'll be up the creek without an elected official…

2.Most people make more than minimum wage. Even a lot of fast food joints now pay a bit over minimum wage. To pay elected officials less than the bus boy at burger king is not fair.

3.Elected officials require a higher pay rate because they have to pay for things we don't. The government is very stingy about their office cost allowance, and officials often have to pay their own way on flights, hotels, car rentals, office meals, required dinners and social functions. They could never afford all of these, let alone food and shelter.

4.These elected officials certainly enjoyed a specific lifestyle before they were elected. Dropping their pay so much could result in them loosing their house or car. They'd have to drop cable and internet. They wouldn't be able to afford things like healthcare. You'd be dooming them to the poor house

5.How would you determine hourly pay? These people work often 24-7. Phone calls, late night meeting, paperwork at home. They couldn't just clock in for these hours. There would be too much argument over how many hours they truly worked.

6.Not all elected officials agree on minimum wage anyway. You might get a good kick on the die-hard republican, but your also kicking the liberal who wants to raise them for you.

7.Lastly, the world pays an individual what it thinks their worth based on their past. The fact of the matter is, outside of teenagers, who have very little in expenses, the people working minimum wage jobs are mostly those who didn't put in the effort to get a better job and/or education. Those running for office are getting paid better because they have earned better. They have worked harder and put in more effort. They deserve the extra pay.
Debate Round No. 2
Geekis_Khan

Pro

It's fine. This'll just be a shorter argument.

I'll hit each of your contentions.

1.) There will always be people who want to be in office. Teaching jobs don't pay well, but there are still kids that want to be teachers. If anything, this will help us get a better pool of only people who are truly committed.

2.) Who says it isn't fair? this seems a bit more subjective to me. and besides, In general, our major branches of government aren't getting high approval ratings. why should we be paying them more for a job where they're not performing well?

3.) Ah, but with the amount of funds the government would be saving from these wage cuts, there'd be more than enough to pay for flights and hotels when needed.

4.) Yeah. They'd be poorer. That's the point. They say that this is enough to live by, so they should try to live by it.

5.) You can figure out a system for that. That's really just a technical argument. the main idea is that they have to be paid by minimum wage. A little technicality like that isn't enough to vote CON. And I don't see why they can't be paid hourly for that, either. How long do these meetings and phone calls last? that's how you pay them right there. And as for the working on paper work at home, there are a lot of people who work on paper work at home and don't get any pay for it (they still get hourly pay). Why should it be special for government officials?

6.) Okay, so the liberal who wants to raise minimum wage has to live by it too. Once again, they're setting the minimum wage, they should live by it, regardless of political ideology. It's just a basic ideological point that if someone says that this is enough to live by, they should be willing to live by it. This could even improve those liberals' outlooks on the situation, as they'll have firsthand experience, and know what actually needs to be done concerning minimum wage.

7.) I refer you to my rebuttal to your second point.

Thank you. You thought of some arguments that I wasn't expecting.

Keep in mind when writing your rebuttal that I won't have a chance to respond. So, try to be fair to me, I guess. :)
JTSmith

Con

I'll hit each of your contentions as well.

1.) Teaching jobs pay better than minimum wage. Sure there are gunna be a few people who will take the job, but those most qualified are going to find better paying jobs. No one wants to go to college for at least 4 years to get payed minimum wage. If we want to continue to have qualified and hard-working individuals running this country, we need to pay them fairly.

2.) Running a congressional seat takes a lot more work and more hours than running a burger stand. Whether or not they are getting good approval ratings, they are still doing the work and still deserve to be paid thusly.

3.) Ok...as far as three goes...i'll take that point. Nice one...

4.) Its enough to live by for someone with less to pay for. Minimum wage is designed mostly for single young adults who need to pay rent and other basic expenses. These office holders are providing for a family. They need to be able to feed themselves as well as their kids. Odds are, they have a mortgage to pay. Not a rent. They have other expenses as well such as life insurance, more health insurance, more car insurance, homeowners insurance. These things would be absolutely necessary for people of their circumstances. If they were paid minimum wage they would have to declare bankruptcy and lose everything.
Generally speaking, the people living off of minimum wage dont have these expenses.

5.) It should be special because government officials do it a lot more. My dad works for the government. He spends hours at home doing work. The same applies to other government officials. They spend hours doing this kind of work. The government would literally be stiffing them if they ignored these hours. Besides, there would be all kinds of conflicts and even lawsuits over paychecks. Not worth it.

6.) They Liberal isnt saying that its enough to live by, but he still gets the punishment???
There is no logic to that. Its like those days back in elementary school when one could threw a paper ball and the whole class had to stay in from recess. Lets punish everyone for on man's crime??? I think not...

The fact of the matter is that these people have earned more and they need more. Whether or not you agree with them about minimum wage, they deserve their pay, just like i deserve my 12 dollars an hour.

Giving them a few weeks on minimum wage is on thing, but only paying them minimum wage is far too unreasonable for the work that they do and the things that they accomplish.
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Folwart 2 years ago
Folwart
Paying government officials minimum wage is completely reasonable and logical. They make the wage, it should be something a person can get by with. An added benefit would be their health care, travel expenses and food while on the job could be paid for. After their term is up they could be paid a flat rate bonus that is voted on by the people every so often. It's not only reasonable, it's a rock solid solution. As it stands, fools get rewarded no matter how poorly they perform or how much they lie. Take away the reward and you'll see quality people with integrity that actually care about humanity taking the reigns. In order to understand this logic, forget everything you think you know and have been taught about the way the world works. We were raised within a radically dysfunctional, broken and corrupt system. It works how we say it works because the Government is supposed to serve us, not the other way around. Don't ever believe otherwise and don't ever forget it. Humanity!
Posted by Geekis_Khan 9 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Like I said... Had I gotten that other round...

I think a lot of people consider that.

Or they vote off of reslution.

Hopefully, the former.

Probably not, though.
Posted by LaSalle 9 years ago
LaSalle
The way I see it, doing something like paying a govt official minimum wage is kinda out there and unreasonable. So I was expecting Pro to blow me away with his argument in order to convince me that this might be a good idea. But at the end of the debate I'm still thinking... nah, no way, shouldn't happen, bad idea... so Pro didn't do his job and I voted Con. How this is a close debate I'll never know.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 9 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Suffice it to say that I did have rebuttals to what he said in Round 3. Now, whether the voting public would buy it or not, well, that's a different question. Maybe I'll redo the topic sometime.
Posted by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
I second Haden's *sigh*

And apparently 5 other people voted strictly based on the resolution as well. Otherwise...?

The funny thing is that even the resolution is far-fetched (not to mention I disagree with it). I'd have fun with this if Pro challenged me to the same debate ;D
Posted by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
I'll be honest, Geekis, I think you are a great debater; however, I am particularly disappointed with your performance in this debate... although I agree with you that a lot of it is probably attributed to the missed round. I'm not positive about that though - it just kind of played out like a 2 round debate instead of a 3 round debate. No biggie. Regardless, I think this one clearly went to CON, but I'm sure you'll find a way to keep that win percentage of yours ;) I find it highly unlikely that this debate would remain close otherwise. In any case, you should sign up for the next debate tournament on Facebook. It's fun.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 9 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Like I said... I could've rebutted a lot of those points well had we gotten the other round in.

But the way it's played out, I can easily see a CON vote.
Posted by elphaba1389 9 years ago
elphaba1389
i agree with "con" on this one. granted, it's a kick in the butt for government officials. But it's not realistic.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 9 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Oh, it's too bad you missed Round One. I'm reading your last argument, and I could've had some good rebuttals and clarifications and made it a much better debate. Oh, well.
Posted by advidiun 9 years ago
advidiun
I have to side with con on his one.
Paying elected officers minimum wage doesnt make sense practically speaking...
even if it sounds fun >:D
18 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by ANSmith 8 years ago
ANSmith
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by advidiun 8 years ago
advidiun
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by JTSmith 8 years ago
JTSmith
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Jamcke 8 years ago
Jamcke
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by cloppbeast 8 years ago
cloppbeast
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by SPF 9 years ago
SPF
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by LaSalle 9 years ago
LaSalle
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by MaxHayslip 9 years ago
MaxHayslip
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by geekiskhanisgod 9 years ago
geekiskhanisgod
Geekis_KhanJTSmithTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30