The Instigator
Riversidegirl4life
Pro (for)
Tied
3 Points
The Contender
Zaradi
Con (against)
Tied
3 Points

All schools should adopt the "Stop, Start, Continue" system

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/19/2012 Category: Education
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,248 times Debate No: 21255
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (2)

 

Riversidegirl4life

Pro

I will begin by giving an objective, unbiased definition of the system.

The "Stop Start Continue" system is a system with which students can review their teachers at the end of the school year. Each student is given one form to fill out for every teacher. On each form the students should briefly state what the teacher should stop doing, what they should start doing and what they should continue doing. These forms will be submitted to the school principal who will read them all and discuss the student's output with each teacher individually. The sumissions are annonymous and are done on the computer so the principal can't distinguish the hand writing.

In this debate, the Pro will argue why all schools should adopt this system, and the Con will argue why they should not.
First round is acceptance, please begin!
Zaradi

Con

Sounds interesting.
Debate Round No. 1
Riversidegirl4life

Pro

Thanks for accepting!

I think that the Stop, Start, Continue system is a great system to introudce to schools for many reasons.

Firstly, it is important for teachers and students to work as a team.
Although it's true that the students haven't studied teaching at university, but they do know what works best for them and what they feel needs imporving. After all, teachers and students need to work together for students to achieve their potential, so the teachers should receive honest feedback from the kids. This programme would allow students to annoymously let their teachers know how their partnership could be improved on the teachers' behalf. After all, students receive a lot of imput from teachers (try harder, keep it up, try this method, try that method) so why shouldn't the otherside of the partnership receive feedback too?

Students will feel as though they have a voice
Many students at school feel as though they have no input into the way the school is run. Although most schools do have a Student Council or Student Voice, shyer pupils or pupils who simply dont have the time to commit to these groups don't have the same opportunity to put forth their ideas. This programme will allow every student to have an opportunity to be heard without feeling under pressure or as though their opinion isn't "as good" as everyone elses (something which can happen in group discussion).

It benefits teachers as they can see where to improve
Not only does it give the students the opportunity to put forth ideas, but it also gives teachers the opportunity to take on ideas. Obviously the teacher doesn't have to take on every opinion of every student, but by receiving a few comments they can get an overall view of the impact their teaching has, and how they can imporve on things they may not have even though of! When we ran this programme at my old school, one of our teachers said that he received multiple comments that he spoke too quickly, something which he didn't know he did at all! In this instance, the Stop Start Continue programme clearly benefitted the students as many shy students may feel uneasy verbally asking the teacher to speak louder.

Students can put forward new ideas
This is where the "start" bit comes in. Although "stop" allows students to tell teachers what they feel isn't working for them, "Start" allows students to be creative and free-thinking, and put forward new ideas. For example, if a student thinks that more group discussions would benefit the class, or more interactive worksheets should be given out, or even that more colourful informative posters would liven up the classrooms, they can let the teachers know! Like I stated above, these kind of things are subjects which some students may feel shy or apprehensive to bring up, so an annonymous form to fill out would really help.

After all, it's not all negetive!
Although "Stop" and "Start" are to do with what can be improved in the learning atmosphere, the "Continue" section helps the teacher see what he or she is doing right, and what the students enjoy. Students may want to simply put forward that the teacher makes really imformative PowerPoint presentations, or that the school trips are really helpful towards the course. Again, this is beneficial as the teachers can see what is working, and which sections they should possibly do more of or introduce to other classes.

Thanks!
Zaradi

Con

I'll go ahead and get right to it.

The BOP for this debate is on the pro side, seeing as implementing this would be a change in the normal status quo. So the main portion of my efforts will go to refuting my opponent's case.

The thesis of my position that this kind of plan is more likely to cause negative or no benefits than cause the benefits listed by my opponent.

1. There's too much room for actual abuse of this policy than would be room for actual help from this policy.

What this policy proposed by my opponent is one that people can anonymously submit some form that tells teachers what they ought to do and what they ought not do when teaching. I would presuppose that people going onto and submitting for all their teachers that they should "Stop giving out tests and homework" and to "Start giving out free A's and candy to everyone" would be an unacceptable response to my opponent. If so, then:
1) This is what will most likely be the norm. Teenagers are inherently rebellious, and school is generally looked at by the average teenager as a form of government instituted prison from teens. I certainly know that if it were implemented in my school that not only would I not take it seriously, but that the vast majority of my school would not take it seriously either.
2) Since it is anonymous, there is no way for the administrators to actually punish this kind of behaviour. I could submit it anonymously and tell all my female teachers that they need to "Stop acting like a b*tch" and "Start taking off all your clothes in class" and there would be no way to punish me for this. This would cause more problems in the system than would benefits because the school would then have to spend time and resources trying to track me down in vain.

2. Students aren't teachers, thus do not know what is best for them when it comes to education.

While students may have preferences on ways they wish to be taught, these are often unapplicable to the curriculum that is mandated by teachers to teach to their students by the school district. For example, it's irrelevant if a student wants their history teacher to do more hands-on teaching because it's impossible to do so short of teaching the Revolutionary War by handing out muskets and cannons and telling them to shoot away at their fellow classmates. Teachers design how they teach their designated curriculum materials because they know what they have to teach, and know how to best get all the information across.

I will now refute my opponent's case:

It is important for teachers and students to work as a team.

1. Refer to my first point, which refutes this. There would be no actual working benefit from this, as the average teenager would not give realistic feedback.
2. There is no warrant as to why the students and teachers have a partnership to critique each other's performance. The teacher's job is to teach the material and make sure the students understand it. The student's job is to understand the material and achieve a passing grade. The student's job is NOT to teach the teacher how to do their job.

Students will feel as though they have a voice.

1. My opponent fails to warrant why having a voice in how their teachers teach their classes is actually something we ought to be concerned about.
2. Students already do have a voice. Through the student elections of Student Council members, they choose who represents them to the school, and thus have a voice in how the school operates.

It benefits teachers as they can see where to improve.

1. Refer to my first point as refutation of this. Since the average teenager would not take this seriously, teachers would gain no benefit from this.
2. Refer to my second point as refutation of this. Since students are not teachers, they do not know how to adequetly teach this to teenagers with varying points of view and aspects on life. Thus, the information they would provide would offer no real benefit.

Students can put forward new ideas.

1. Refer to my first point as refutation of this. Since the average teenager would fail to take this seriously, the ideas put forward would be false and mis-leading.
2. Refer to my second point as refutation of this. Since students are not teachers, their ideas on how to teach the course will be misguided and ill-conceived on how to teach the material to a wide spectrum of different students.

It's not all negative!

1. The vast majority is negatively based.
2. The vast majority of comments would be negatively based, seeing as two of the three sections ask for negative answers.
3. Because the majority of the comments would be negative, the negative would then outweigh the positive.

So in review, while this plan is a good idea in theory, the actual implementation of this plan would lead to largly negative results.

I await the pro's reply.
Debate Round No. 2
Riversidegirl4life

Pro

I'd like to begin by rebutting some of your points.

Q1:"Teenagers are inherently rebellious, and school is generally looked at by the average teenager as a form
of government instituted prison from teens."
Inherent: Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute (1)
You state that teenagers are inherently rebellious, but you have no sources to back this up! You haven't quoted any sources suggesting this theory whatsoever, so I can't possibly take you seriously on this fact. As most of your argument is based on this, I feel little need to rebut each point as they are based on an unsourced opinion. Also, I said all schools, not all high schools, so students who are not teenagers will still be able to input data.

Q2: "Since it is anonymous, there is no way for the administrators to actually punish this kind of behaviour."
You haven't really suggested why punishment for writing vulagr comments on the forms is neccesary or constuctive. You state that "the school would have to spend time and resources trying to track me down" and again you haven't given any explaination as to why this would be neccesary. My opinion is that yes, kids will occasionally submit rude comments, but so what? It all gets filtered through the head teacher anyway, so any unkind comments can simply be ignored, there is no reason to "punish" the kids who wrote these comments. As you haven't given any reason as to why these students need to be punished, I see your argument as invalid.

Q3: "Students aren't teachers, thus do not know what is best for them when it comes to education"
You're right, and this is why we don't let students run the school for a week! The comments don't have to be applied obviously, so the fact that students may not know what is right for them all the time is okay. After all, if some comments aren't suitable, such as "You should let us text during lessons" they can be ignored. It's not like everything the students suggest is going to happen, if this was the case your argument would be very much valid, but as it isn't it's not.

Q4:Teachers design how they teach their designated curriculum materials because they know what they have to teach, and know how to best get all the information across.
It's true that teachers have designed their syllabus in a specific way, but all syllabi allow room for flexibility. For example, if most students in a Latin class feel as though they would like to revise a specific section of grammar, it may be in the teacher's interest to set aside some time to revise this specifc section. Allowing the students to have some input into what sections may need revising is a good plan, as both the students and teachers benefit from it.
Also, you state that teachers know how to get their information across. My example from my previous argument explained how a teacher didn't know that he was talking too quietly in class, and the system helped him realise this. Teachers are only human after all! and sometimes they will make a mistake which they might not notice, such as maybe speaking too quickly or not giving enough time for students to note down their homework tasks. It's little things like these which can make a big difference in a student's learning, and having revison sessions in class can really boost a student's grade! (2)

Q4: "the average teenager would not give realistic feedback"
You use this point to refute my point [about the importance of students and teacher's working as a team.] Again, you haven't given any sources whatsoever to prove this! Without any evidence to back up this "fact", your argument surrounding it is invalid.

Q5: The student's job is to understand the material and achieve a passing grade. The student's job is NOT to teach the teacher how to do their job.
I'd really like to know where you're getting all this information about what students' and a teacher's "jobs" are, because without sourcing; my dissagreement is just as valid as your claim. The following article shows how a teacher-student teamwork is important for achieving goals. (3) And personally, I believe that in a team- the members should be able to speak freely and discuss which aspects of each member's performance possibly requires and improvement.

Q6: "My opponent fails to warrant why having a voice in how their teachers teach their classes is actually something we ought to be concerned about."
You said that teenagers feel like their school is a form of imprisonment, don't you think that a way to change that would be to let students feel like they can make a difference? Although what you said wasn't entirely true, it is true that 43% of students don't feel entirely happy with the way their school is run, and I believe that the way to change this is letting students have a say in how their school is run!

Q7: Students already do have a voice. Through the student elections of Student Council members"
This may apply in your school but neither my current school, my brother's school, nor either of the schools we went to have "Elections of Student Council members" . Although your school may have something like this, I'm sure a lot of schools don't. Maybe it's an American thing.

Q8: Since the average teenager would not take this seriously, teachers would gain no benefit from this.
Refer to Q4.

Q9: two of the three sections ask for negative answers.
Although the stop section is aimed to construct rather than appraise... the other two are positive. What's negative about suggesting new ideas for class and telling the teacher what she or he is doing well? Even if somehow these are twisted into negatives, there is a difference between negative and constructive, and there is nothing wrong with building and improving, which is really what this whole system is about :)

1.http://dictionary.reference.com...
2. http://www.shelleycollege.org...
3. http://vocserve.berkeley.edu...
Zaradi

Con

You state that teenagers are inherently rebellios, but you have no sources to back this up!

1. So you're telling me you haven't ever once not done what your parents or teachers or guardian's have told you to? If your answer is no, that you have at one point disobeyed your parents or teachers or guardians, you would have been rebelling. And since at one point in time most, if not all, teenagers would have rebelled against their parents or teachers or guardians, we can reasonably deduce that teenagers have a tendency to be rebellious. Sound logic is a warrant in itself.
2. Just because something doesn't have a website saying why statement x is true, doesn't automatically make statement x false. If this were true, then your argument that I don't have any cited sources to prove my point would be wrong because you don't have any cited sources explaining why that's necessary! Not every line of argumentation needs cited evidence.
3. But if you really must have cited evidence, my claim that teenagers are rebellious is still backed up by numerous articles.[1][2][3]


You haven't really suggested why punishment for writing vulgar comments on the forms is neccesary or constructive.

This is my argument exactly. Since some, if not most, teenagers would do this, it's the exact opposite of constructive. Thusly, these forms are only giving teenagers opportunities to mess around when they need to be learning.

Also, schools would need to track down those who did write rude and vulgar comments to enforce the rules of society. Since the purpose of the forms is to instruct teachers of what they can do better and what they ought not do, writing something sexual or vulgar is clearly contrary to the purpose, thus violating the rules. If the school did not make an effort to track down those who did it, it would give normal students who maybe weren't rebelling origionally then idea that they can get away with this kind of behavior, and would only cause more rebellion. So simply 'ignoring it' is an insufficient response.

Since this argument was insufficiently responded to, you can extend this argument as one of the first reasons to vote con, as it provides a major down side to the implementation of this policy.

The comments don't have to be
applied

If the comments are not being applied, what is the point of this policy in the first place? Wouldn't it be easier to then just tell the teacher "Hey, you really should try this instead of this" instead of having to fill out forms of papers that do the same thing in a more complicated manner?

But secondly, this isn't even responsive to the point that this argument represented. Since students aren't teachers, they thusly don't have the teachers perspective when it comes to how to teach materials. Thus, suggestions from students would be invalid or only contradicting to the purpose as a bad idea. Since this point was insufficiently rebuted, you can extend this cleanly across the flow as the second reason to vote con, as it shows a second downside to this policy.

set aside some time to revise

I have some major problems with this section. For the first part, the cited article she gives isn't saying what she's trying to make it say. The article is about things students can do to earn higher grades, not why teachers changing the curriculum increases student grades. So thus, the source is invalid for the purpose of her argument.

Also, most curriculums, if not all, have no room for deviation. Teachers generally have a certain number of assignments and tests that they must issue, and a certain number of lessons they must give in a time period. This doesn't give them any time to spend a day or two reviewing materials that students didn't get: they would have to learn it outside of class or come in for private tutoring.

Again, this argument was insufficiently responded to, so you can extend this argument as the third reason to vote con.

Again, you haven't given any sources

Again, you don't need a source for every line of argumentation. Logic that is sound works as a warrant as well.

I'd really like to know where you're getting all this information

Simple intuitive reason. You don't see students standing in front of a room of teachers giving a lecture on how students ought to be taught lessons. Their job is to learn and to achieve a passing grade, not to tell the teacher how to do their job.

Also, I'd like to point out that the link you gave lead to a 404 error. So I can't receive certification from your 'source' that you're actually saying what you're claiming to.

don't you think...

Belief is different from reason. Just because I believe x does not automatically make x true.

Refer to Q4

Refer to my arguments against Q4.

The other two are positive


Stop is negative because you're telling the teacher what they're doing wrong. Start is negative because you're pointing out to the teacher that they need to be doing this to be a good teacher. Thusly, start is also negative. The only positive thing is continue, but this positive is outweighed by the two negatives.

So this debate breaks down in a few ways:

1. My opponent is failing to meet their BOP as to proving definitively why this policy is a benefit. Since I'm showing multiple downsides to this, this is the first and main reason why to vote con.

2. I'm the only one with arguments that survived the round. So I'm going to be the only person extending out offense for their side. So you can vote con here off of a risk of offense.

I'd like to thank my opponent for a fun debate : D

Sources: [1] http://www.troubledwith.com...

[2] http://www.teenhelp.com...
[3]http://www.lifescript.com...
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Zaradi 5 years ago
Zaradi
I agree. Your role as a debater is to influence the voters DURING the debate round. Not after in the comments.
Posted by Riversidegirl4life 5 years ago
Riversidegirl4life
I agree, but as a debater I beleive that it is my role to influence people's personal opinon through my debate.
Posted by Zaradi 5 years ago
Zaradi
@River:

Personal opinions aren't supposed to hold sway in a voter's decision. The voters are voting on who did the better debating, not on what they personally believe. So if you think pro did the better debating, by all means, vote pro. If not, then vote con.
Posted by Riversidegirl4life 5 years ago
Riversidegirl4life
Wouldn't you want to let yourself, or your kids, to have the opportunity to influence one of the biggest factors in their life, school? If so, vote Pro!
Posted by RougeFox 5 years ago
RougeFox
I just don't think that any of your arguments respond to the argument that shy students could point out small teaching flaws. Where do you respond to that specific argument? Cause that's what I'm voting off of. Like, you first contention doesn't apply to that because you didn't prove 100% of responses would be bad. Your second contention doesn't apply because a student knows if a teacher is talking too quickly. And non of your other arguments respond to shy students could point out small teaching flaws. So, where do you respond to that specific argument?
Posted by RougeFox 5 years ago
RougeFox
What response did I not read? Like, how do you evaluate the debate?
Posted by Zaradi 5 years ago
Zaradi
Okay, so the reason you evaluated that way is you didn't read half of the debate.
Okay, totally fair. Thanks for clarifying.
Posted by RougeFox 5 years ago
RougeFox
No, because you don't answer the argument that there can be selective following of comments. Unless you show that 100% of teens are rebellious, and that being rebellious causes teens to respond nonconstructively 100% of the time, then he still has some solvency. The two problems with the argument are 1. It doesn't apply to all teens 2. It doesn't show that 100% of rebellious teens would be nonconstructive. Therefore, she at least has some solvency, even if it is only a tiny bit. Therefore, this argument doesn't hold against her response that all comments don't have to be implemented. Your responses to "all comments don't have to be implemented" in the third round aren't sufficient because they don't respond to the unique benefits (shy kids and simple mistakes, like talking too fast). Although these may be small benefits, they exist, and outweigh you only offense which is essentially "cumbersome system." There is no reason to believe that negative feedback that doesn't have to be taken into account would outweigh the unique shy kids and simple mistakes benefits.
Posted by Zaradi 5 years ago
Zaradi
But that's exactly what it does. All of the pro's responses rely on the assumption that people who fill out these surveys do so honestly and with the intention to actually do so honestly. The point I bring up about rebellious teenagers calls this assumption into question. Thus, it takes out all of the aff's solvency.
Posted by RougeFox 5 years ago
RougeFox
Cause it doesn't take out all of solvency.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by RougeFox 5 years ago
RougeFox
Riversidegirl4lifeZaradiTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: I'll go more in depth later in the comments but in general two both of you there were way to many cross applications of responses (the same response to multiple arguments) and there weren't enough clearly established impacts on either side. I vote off of student voice, and the argument that only some advice must be taken and "bad" advice doesn't have to be accounted for. Pro actually preempted a lot of con arguments (if you want to get technical). More to come in comments. PM with questions.
Vote Placed by Greyparrot 5 years ago
Greyparrot
Riversidegirl4lifeZaradiTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I think con wins with the 2 negatives outweighing the positives approach... very creative!