The Instigator
Umar99
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ADHDavid
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points

Allah exists without a place according to correct Islamic belief

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
ADHDavid
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/25/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 674 times Debate No: 79051
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (2)

 

Umar99

Pro

I ask for the opponent to be Sunni Muslim, well if they hold this belief then they would be Wahhabi/Salafi and not Sunni in reality. The reason I ask for this is so that the sources used are accepted and time is not wasted on the validity of sources as has happened in a previous debate.

As a member of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamah I believe Allah exists without a place and that Islamic sources agree with my belief. I strongly abhor the wahhabi, psudeo-Salafi and anthropomorphist beliefs about Allah of which is one of their most important beliefs and they say that Allah has a place LITERALLY above the throne. These people are victims of Literalism and need to understand the existence of metaphors in Islamic texts.

I shall be bringing evidence from the Quran and Sunnah and from the classical Islamic scholars.
ADHDavid

Con

I will be arguing that Allah does not exist, and his place doesn't exist either.

Nobody has ever recorded an observation of Allah's abode/home/mansion/cardboard box. I had a friend named Allah once. Actually, his name was Adam. I saw Adam. I have proof of Adam. The Qua-ran isn't proof of Allah. Or his place.
Debate Round No. 1
Umar99

Pro

As you can see my opponent has not grasped the nature of this debate and has mistakenly understood this to be a debate about the existence of Allah/God which it clearly is NOT. What the debate IS about is WHAT THE CORRECT ISLAMIC BELIEF is about Allah. I thought I had made this clear for all yet there had to be someone who failed to comprehend such a basic request.

I am not and nor will I throughout this debate, debate the existence of Allah since this is not what I am arguing right now and so as you decided to accept the debate then I request you to stick to the topic of debate and not stray from the topic, something many people love to do on this website.
ADHDavid

Con

"Allah exists without a place according to correct Islamic belief"


Actually, I am arguing that Allah does not exist without a place, which means I can argue that Allah does not exist. The reason I can do this is becuase "Con" means against, so I do not have to be a Muslim to argue against this topic.Pro has failed to provide any sources or arguments for his case in the second round, instead choosing to a use improper capitalisations to highlight his beliefs, so I will touch base on what umar99 wrote last round and the round before for a moment.



"I ask for the opponent to be Sunni Muslim, well if they hold this belief then they would be Wahhabi/Salafi and not Sunni in reality. The reason I ask for this is so that the sources used are accepted and time is not wasted on the validity of sources as has happened in a previous debate."


Umar asked his opponent to be a Sunni Muslim, which I certainly am not. The problem he does not see is, is that he asked, or requested this, he did not require it. Which means that I can argue in this debate, specifically against the existence of Allah without a place, without being a Sunni Muslim. This means that, although I am against Pro, I do not have to believe that Allah exists with a place, but simply that he does not. He provides a reason, I applaud him, but his reason is flawed. Using only Islamic sources...? Since that is a request as well, I will deny it and argue with scientific sources.


"As a member of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamah I believe Allah exists without a place and that Islamic sources agree with my belief.


I have several problems here. For one, he is using solely Islamic to express his belief. If I believed in the bible, and I said: "Noah built a boat and sailed in it with 10000 animals, the bible agrees with my belief!"... That would be illogical and immediately dismissed. Which means I am going to dismiss this, as there is no evidence that Islamic sources are scientifically accurate.



"I strongly abhor the wahhabi, pseudo-Salafi and anthropomorphist beliefs about Allah of which is one of their most important beliefs and they say that Allah has a place LITERALLY above the throne. These people are victims of Literalism and need to understand the existence of metaphors in Islamic texts."


Wait, can't we say that this is a metaphor? You can't say this, as anything can be a metaphor, including the whole entire source! If the book specifically does not mention it is a metaphor, then it is not a metaphor. This strengthens my point, as now everything in the Quran can be a metaphor, including Allah, and his place, as there is no clear consensus as to what is and what isn't a metaphor in the Quran.


"I shall be bringing evidence from the Quran and Sunnah and from the classical Islamic scholars."

I will quickly refute said evidence.


"As you can see my opponent has not grasped the nature of this debate and has mistakenly understood this to be a debate about the existence of Allah/God which it clearly is NOT. What the debate IS about is WHAT THE CORRECT ISLAMIC BELIEF is about Allah. I thought I had made this clear for all yet there had to be someone who failed to comprehend such a basic request."


Correct: free from error; in accordance with fact or truth.


The Quran is not based off of facts or truths, it is based off of beliefs. I can believe in anything, and it does not have to be factual or truthful. Now....the title of the debate, and the reason I am against it.


"Allah exists without a place according to correct Islamic belief"


There is no correct islamic belief, as the Quran is not based off of scientific fact, as it believes in an Omnipotent being that created the universe, which, although I am not proving that it wasn't, there is exactly no proof that it was. Because of this, I will be arguing that I am against Allah existing without a place, but not for Allah existing. Because of this, I will use evidence to prove that the Quran is not factual.


"By the sun and his brightness, And the moon when she followeth him"


This is a quote taken from an Islamic text. Since I cannot prove that it is not a metaphor, as anything in Islamic belief could be a metaphor, according to Umar 99


" These people are victims of Literalism and need to understand the existence of metaphors in Islamic texts."


Then anything I can gleam from the Quran ( Or any Islamic text, for that matter) could be a metaphor, correct, as there is no fine line between a metaphor and a fact. If Umar99 can scientifically provide evidence as to the Quran being factual, then we can accept it as fact. This is a truly impossible feat, and I wish Umar99

good luck in the next round.


The Islamic view of the Christian Bible is based on the belief that parts of Bible are a revelation from God, however some of that has become distorted or corrupted (tahrif)”


https://en.wikipedia.org...


http://www.livescience.com...


http://www.1000mistakes.com...


http://www.deism.com...


https://danielmiessler.com...




Debate Round No. 2
Umar99

Pro

Umar99 forfeited this round.
ADHDavid

Con

I extend my arguments from last round, accepting that I have made some grammatical errors.
Debate Round No. 3
Umar99

Pro

Umar99 forfeited this round.
ADHDavid

Con

I extend my arguments here as well, as it seems that Umar has forfieted.
Debate Round No. 4
Umar99

Pro

Umar99 forfeited this round.
ADHDavid

Con

I win..forfieture. Winning.
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ADHDavid 1 year ago
ADHDavid
"ADHDavid There is plenty of scientific proof and non-scientific proof of Allah but that is NOT the debate subject. You have greatly misunderstood what this debate is about, the debate is about what ISLAM SAYS about Allah and NOT WHAT YOU THINK OR SAY.

So yeah you basically don't have a clue and if you read the title of the debate carefully you'd know what the debate was about."

Umar, I do understand what the debate is about. I am going to refute your point, and by doing so I will need to question the actual existence of Allah, because if I disprove Allah, or provide evidence of his non-existence, then I can also disprove that "Allah exists without a place according to correct Islamic belief"
Posted by ADHDavid 1 year ago
ADHDavid
Actually, this debate is what the correct Islamic belief says, and there cannot possibly be a correct Islamic belief.
Posted by Umar99 1 year ago
Umar99
ADHDavid There is plenty of scientific proof and non-scientific proof of Allah but that is NOT the debate subject. You have greatly misunderstood what this debate is about, the debate is about what ISLAM SAYS about Allah and NOT WHAT YOU THINK OR SAY.

So yeah you basically don't have a clue and if you read the title of the debate carefully you'd know what the debate was about.
Posted by ADHDavid 1 year ago
ADHDavid
There is no scientific proof of Allah. Period.
Posted by HarunHernandez 1 year ago
HarunHernandez
It depends on what you mean by place. Allah has the attribute of the High and as being in the heavens, and as mounting the throne. This is in a manner known to Allah only.

Many people think we are being literalists when we say this but it is not the case at all. The matter revolves around believing in a physical, living god versus a conceptual god, which is not really a god at all.

People only raise this issue because they believe in some Aristotelian concept of God. According to that concept, the god isn't worthy of worship but is only a concept of the mind. A "god" in most languages is what people ultimate object of veneration.
Posted by robertacollier 1 year ago
robertacollier
Umad, please stop posting the same thing in every post.
Posted by Umar99 1 year ago
Umar99
And robertacollier we know of your ignorance of Islam so please stop posting the same thing on every debate :)
Posted by Umar99 1 year ago
Umar99
And robertacollier we know of your ignorance of Islam so please stop posting the same thing on every debate :)
Posted by Umar99 1 year ago
Umar99
ADHDavid, if a Muslim rejects the sources which are the Quran and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH then he isn't a Muslim...He has no choice but to accept the sources. It wouldn't make sense for a person to disagree with Allah and the Prophet PBUH and then label himself as a Muslim.

And no Muslim man or woman has any right in the affair, when Allah and His Noble Messenger have decreed a command regarding it; and whoever does not obey the command of Allah and His Noble Messenger, has indeed clearly gone very astray. Quran, Chpater 33, Verse 36.
Posted by Umar99 1 year ago
Umar99
Theunknown, if God was a metaphor then how would Him revealing Books and sending Messengers make sense? Also by metaphor what is meant is figure of speech and not interpreting every single thing literally.

For example in America there's a saying: "hit the road". Now the person saying that doe not intend for the person he is addressing to grab a stick and start to whack the road with it. What he means is to depart and begin one's journey.

And it is not about what I think since I am not a scholar of Islam and my knowledge is merely a drop in the ocean of knowledge that the scholars possess which why I refer to them and look to them for answers to my questions. And so it is them that I quote.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
Umar99ADHDavidTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Umar99ADHDavidTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro ff many times, so conduct to Con.