The Instigator
adamh
Pro (for)
Winning
60 Points
The Contender
guitaristofra
Con (against)
Losing
15 Points

Allow Concealed Carry on College Campuses

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/14/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,192 times Debate No: 413
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (25)

 

adamh

Pro

I believe that properly trained students with a concealed carry license should be able to carry on their college campus. Currently, college campuses are Gun-Free Zones. That means that even if you have the concealed carry permit, you may not bring the gun on to campus. My question is: who does this law hurt?

The last few years has seen a rapid increase in the number of school shootings and other school violence. It seems every week or two you hear about a high-school or college age kid amassing a smorgasbord of weaponry, bringing a gun(or guns) to school, shooting people, and then committing suicide. It happens so frequently now that people non-chalantly hear it on the news as they flip the TV channel - they don't think twice about it anymore. The kids that are doing this are disturbed and once these nuts get it into their heads that they're going to go on a shooting rampage, nothing short of their plan being exposed will stop them.

Now back to my question - who does the ban on concealed carry on campus hurt? I will tell you who it hurts, it hurts the innocent, law-abiding students of the school who are going to school to learn and get an education. It impedes on their ability to be as safe as they can possibly be. This is an important thing to remember: the nuts who are planning the attack DO NOT CARE if it is a 'Gun-Free Zone', they're packing heat either way, with the intent to kill. The people who are restricted by the Gun-Free Zone are the law-abiding, responsible citizens with CC permits. The aren't going to break the rule that says they can't carry, then when the wacko with a shotgun and a book bag full of ammo charges through the doors, they are left defenseless.

My argument is that allowing the CC permit holders to carry on campus will ensure a safer campus if the unthinkable happens and the school comes under attack from a degenerate madman. Within a few minutes of the attack, concealed carriers would be able to draw their weapons and take out the assailant with one clean shot to the head, stopping the tragedy from becoming much, much worse, saving many lives.

The people with CC permits are smart, responsible people who are able to make educated decisions to protect themselves and their peers from an undeserved catastrophe. If this ban were lifted, we would have much safer campuses around America, and many potential tragedies will be stopped short, all because people are allowed to fully employ their Right to Bear Arms, as granted to them by the Constitution.
guitaristofra

Con

Firstly, I don't understand how the campuses of America will be safer if any student with a CC permit is able to walk around with concealed weapons. Being a student myself, it would make me very uneasy to know that anybody walking around me might have a concealed firearm, even if they are supposedly "smart, responsible people." Also, when guns become involved, it is rarely an issue of "one clean shot to the head." If there are a bunch of students carrying guns, and someone comes in with their own weapon intending to shoot people, do you think that one of the students is just going to say "don't worry, I'll handle this" and get a clean shot in the assailant's head? I think the reality of the situation would be that there would be a period of chaos when all of the concealed weapon holders take those weapons out and start firing. There is even high probability that bullets will miss their targets and innocent people will get injured or killed.

Also, I'm sure that in the past many CC permit holders, not in schools but in other places, have actually been the crazy criminals who take out those concealed weapons and start firing on people. Schools are places of books, not guns. There are thousands of colleges throughout the United States, and the number of campuses where shootings happen is relatively tiny. If students anywhere with a CC permit are allowed to take guns to school, the number of shooting will go up because fighting fire with fire does not work. Giving people more opportunities to use weapons has never been, and never will be, a solution to violence.

Lastly, using our "right to bear arms" is a really poor argument for allowing arms in schools. Do you really think when our founding fathers made the "right to bear arms" they were thinking of it pertaining to schools? I really don't think so. I think that right was created mainly because of the need for a militia, which means that the citizens needed to have guns on hand in case they were called to fight the British, French, Spanish, Native Americans, or whoever. Clearly, there are no more militias in the United States, and even if there were it would have nothing to do with schools. Allowing guns in schools will not reduce crime, that just doesn't make sense. Schools should continue to be Gun-Free Zones.
Debate Round No. 1
adamh

Pro

First of all, thank you for debating me. While we completely disagree on this issue (and evidently many others from a view at your profile), it'll give us each an opportunity to express our beliefs in a fun, educational manner.

You mentioned in your post that it would make you very uneasy to know that anybody walking around you might have a concealed firearm. What about when you walk out in public at stores, restaurants, and maybe even work? There's a good chance that you have passed many people who are concealing, and college campuses should not be different from any of these other establishments. The people with the CC permit are responsible and have had much training and extensive background checking to ensure that they are of sound body and mind. Here is a list of what most states require:
• The holder being at least 21 years of age
• No felony convictions; or Class A or B misdemeanors within 5 years
• No domestic violence conviction
• Being a legal citizen of the United States
• Not chemically dependent (ie. Known alchoholic or drug user)
• Not delinquent in child support payments
• Is legally allowed to purchase a handgun
• Has no court protective order or restraining orders against them
• Has not been diagnosed by a physician as suffering from a major psychiatric disorder or hospitalized for psychiatric problems
While these requirements do not guarantee anything, they set a very low possibility of the wrong people getting their hands on a permit.

I am confident that one clean shot is an attainable goal for a skilled shooter and would not be an issue, regardless of how stressful the situation. The assertion you made about these folks loosing their concentration tells me that you personally have had little or no experience using a firearm.

While it is possible that a crazy criminal(and very tricky one at that) could get their hands on a CC permit, why would they go to the trouble. If they're crazy enough to shoot someone, than who cares if they have a permit or not, they're going to shoot someone either way - permit to carry a gun or not.

A look at the statistics shows that more guns does equal less crime. While it is simple to say fighting fire with fire won't work, it simply isn't true. Since the fall semester of 2006, state law in Utah has allowed licensed individuals to carry concealed handguns on the campuses of all public colleges. Also, concealed carry has been allowed for several years at both Colorado State University (Fort Collins, CO) and Blue Ridge Community College (Weyers Cave, VA). This has yet to result in a single act of violence at any of these schools. Numerous studies, including studies by University of Maryland senior research scientist John Lott, University of Georgia professor David Mustard, engineering statistician William Sturdevant, and various state agencies, show that concealed handgun license holders are five times LESS likely than non-license holders to be arrested for violent crimes.

I agree with you that when the Founding Fathers wrote the Right to Bear Arms amendment, they were not thinking about schools. However, these are VERY different times. The thought of a student taking a gun into a school back then never even crossed their minds. The idea that did cross their mind was the right for citizens to protect themselves from danger regardless of their location, and that's exactly what allowing guns on campuses will do.
guitaristofra

Con

Well, I understand everything that you're saying, and it makes sense. I just don't think that allowing more concealed weapons by non-professionals in colleges is the solution. There is definitely a problem with the fact that pointless violence is occurring at campuses, but I believe there's only been about 9 campus shootings in the past 40 years. Every life counts, but I don't think the situation is so severe that concealed weapons should be allowed on colleges. I agree that a vast majority of CC permit holders will be acting defensively and responsibly with their weapon, but there is just too much room for more problems when guns are allowed legally. This whole CC permit business makes guns more available anyways, because people are able to legally buy and sell the guns and carry them. This makes it easier for potential criminals to get a hold of a gun. I know that they could get a hold of one anyways, but the fact that it is easier when there are more guns going around means that someone that may not have gone through the trouble if guns were really rare may be able to obtain one easily and use it. I think there are other solutions that could work alternatively to the CC permit. There could be increased security, so that if a student starts shooting then there will be a trained, professional security guard nearby. Also, there could be metal detectors/x rays or some other precaution before students are able to enter the campus.
Debate Round No. 2
adamh

Pro

Well, I don't have much else to add to my argument other than two quotes. First, Don Kates, professor of Criminal Law and criminologist said, "Unfortunately, an almost perfect inverse correlation exists between those who are affected by gun laws, particularly bans, and those whom enforcement should affect. Those easiest to disarm are the responsible and law abiding citizens whose guns represent no meaningful social problem. Irresponsible and criminal owners, whose gun possession creates or exacerbates so many social ills, are the ones most difficult to disarm."

Second, I'd like to quote you, "I understand everything that you're saying, and it makes sense."

Thank you for the debate.
guitaristofra

Con

The reason people rob banks also makes sense, but that doesn't mean in any way that it's the right thing to do.

There are much better ways to make college campuses safer than to allow the students to carry weapons.

Nice debating with you.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by guitaristofra 9 years ago
guitaristofra
You must have had a wonderful life :p
Posted by SnoopyDaniels 9 years ago
SnoopyDaniels
I was in Israel last year and place was crawling with soldiers with guns, big guns. I felt safer than I've ever felt in my life.
Posted by adamh 9 years ago
adamh
guitaristofra,
you say you'd like to have faith in society. you can begin by having faith that the good people with CC permits will use their firearm wisely.
Posted by guitaristofra 9 years ago
guitaristofra
Well, cloppbeast, I personally prefer people to do wrong things illegally, instead of legally. I'd rather people consume alcohol or do drugs illegally, and I'd rather people use guns and kill each other illegally. Maybe it's just me but I'd like to have some faith in society. Also, it does seem that if people can legally carry concealed weapons everywhere else, why not colleges? I think the point is, CC-holders shouldn't exist. There shouldn't be concealed guns anywhere, unless it's breaking the law, which is bound to happen.If you give society guns, they'll shoot people. If you take those guns away, no one will get shot.
Posted by adamh 9 years ago
adamh
Lsav,
Yes and 17 of those 40 have taken place in the last 9 years alone, as compared to the 23 others that have taken in place in every year before 1997. Do see the trend that says they're becoming more and more common. Look, overall, you're right, colleges are usually very safe. The point is, if CC permit-holders can carry everywhere else, why not on their campus too?

By the way, I don't know where you go to school, maybe your school is ahead of the curve, but very few colleges I know of have ID checks and a police force (unless by police force you mean mall security tards with outfits and flashlights).
Posted by Lsav 9 years ago
Lsav
I think college environments are really no place for guns. You're safer on a college campus than practically anywhere else with most colleges having very strict security measures (i.e. magnetic lock doors on dorms, required ID checks, etc.) and their own police force. The reason college shootings are so shocking when they happen is because they are so rare, they effect the young, and because college campuses are usually so controlled. There have been 10 deadly college shootings in the past 40 years, as a student myself, knowing the amount of knives that get pulled out and fists that coming flying on a normal weekend party night, I would feel extremely uneasy if I knew someone who was deeply inebriated could pull out a gun at any moment, even if they do have a license to do so. College campuses are notorious for young, frivolous behavior and guns have no place in an environment like that.
Posted by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
WOW adamh you are very good at debates. Your argument was well thought out, I can tell you did your homework. Very good! I really like the points you made with bullets.
Posted by HatedvsLoved 9 years ago
HatedvsLoved
cloppbeast - Good point. Criminals are going to break the law no matter what.
Posted by cloppbeast 9 years ago
cloppbeast
//Firstly, I don't understand how the campuses of America will be safer if any student with a CC permit is able to walk around with concealed weapons.//

No disrespect intended, but just because you don't understand, guitaristofra, doesn't mean it isn't true. With a little intuitive thinking, it is quite easy to understand. The point you are missing is, even on gun-free campuses any student is able to walk around with concealed weapons. Do you think a sign is going to prevent a murderer from carrying a weapon on campus? Do you think a murderer would say, "I can't wait to carry my concealed weapon on campus and kill a fellow student. Wait... oh darn, never mind, there is a sign on campus that says 'No-Guns.'" I doubt it.
Posted by Darth_Grievous_42 9 years ago
Darth_Grievous_42
I don't agree with adamh, but his argument was the better fought. On a personal note: I don't personally believe anyone should be able to have guns. Call my a pacifist pansy, I don't care, it's just my opinion. I think the more opportunity there is for violence, the more violence there will be. This is why America has the most gun related deaths in the world. Because people are able to misconstrue a law passed in a time of war, more people die each year in America than all the European countries combined. To use HatedvsLoved analogy of fire fighters, saying and I quote: "When a wild fire is out of control, you know what the firefighters do???? They set a fire going in the opposite direction at it, 99% percent of the time, the fire is stopped." Well, yes, maybe the original fire is stopped, but there is still a greater amount of destruction in the end. I don't know where you came up with this sat, but in the cases of both the California and Haman fires, this technique made them far worse than they would have been. But its not fire that's the issue here, it's fire arms. More guns equals more deaths, no matter who has them. The fear of a crook robbing you is grossly overstated in America. The chances of someone robbing you in a corporate office or shooting you in a school are slim, though unfortunately not none. But that slimness should be able to be taken care of by trained law enforcement, not train civilians. I don't own a gun, and I've never been shot at, or had a need to. The simple fact is the less guns there are, the less shooting there will be. The less fire, the less need to fight it. Its a hard concept for many to grasp, I know, but I can guarantee its the truth.
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