The Instigator
Arithmetician
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
m93samman
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

Although he has some flaws, Olimar is not a bad character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
m93samman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/26/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,551 times Debate No: 13482
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (2)

 

Arithmetician

Pro

Many Brawl players are quick to flag Captain Olimar as a horrible character. It's been 2 years since Brawl's release, and within the time span, people still don't know about Olimar's potential as a fighter. As an Olimar main, I find this very offensive. The main reasons people think Olimar is terrible are (from which I've seen):

1. His tether recovery.

or

2. People don't know how to use him correctly.

Olimar is a great character, and for a lot of reasons:

1. His Side B can dish out insane amounts of damage when White Pikmin are latched on. Not only that, he can also use his Side B for mindgames. An Olimar player can throw Pikmin around the stage, confusing the opponent about which Pikmin are going to land on him/her and which aren't. While the opponent is dodging/attacking the Pikmin, Olimar can rush in for a surprise attack.

2. Many people think you can kill Olimar's Pikmin easily, and that Olimar is a sitting duck when they're killed. Unless the Pikmin aren't following Olimar, they cannot be killed. Olimar can also quickly replenish his Pikmin supply, pulling out all 6 in about 1 second.

3. I have to admit, Olimar's recovery isn't very good. However, Olimar has all the necessary tools to prevent himself from being launched off the stage. First are the mindgames I mentioned earlier. Second is his Down B. The 1st few seconds of his Down B provide him with Super Armor, which prevents Olimar from being launched at all. Third are his amazing spacing techniques. Olimar can space with his long smashes, his Side B, and even his grab! All the necessary tools to keep the opponent away.

I will now await an opponent.
m93samman

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate, and look forward to the humor and intense video-game analysis involved.

To begin, I'd like readers to watch videos only when I refer to a video in my debate, as opposed to watching them at the same time. Watch the first video now.

Olimar comes from the Pikmin game, also a Nintendo original. He is largely dependent on his pikmin population for support, as they are his... support.

In the Pikmin game, he was the strongest player. He also happened to be the only player. The Super Smash Brothers series of games is a culmination of Nintendo stars, and Olimar somehow managed to make it. I believe that Olimar does in fact "suck" and is a bad character.

In the following free for all, Olimar spends the first minute almost entirely evading everyone and throwing pikmin at people from a distance. See the second video.
By the end of the video, you see that he was the second person to die when confronted with a light swordsman (Marth), a heavyweight swordsman (Ike), and a heavy strength character (King Dedede). Clearly he didn't last very long.

But I can't prove anything just with videos, so I'll try to get into analysis.

Regarding my opponent's arguments,

1. Side B. My opponent argues that this move can "dish out insane amounts of damage", but this is not unique to him, as all characters have very powerful moves. The problems with this attack though, are several.

1) They can be blocked with a simple shield (click R or L).
2) Thrown pikmin can be destroyed in mid-air by attacking with a smash attack.
3) Thrown pikmin can be knocked off by tapping A (basic attack).
4) A roll or dodge (R or L + left/right/down) will cause a pikmin to fly off course.
5) Thrown pikmin can't be aimed. The fat purples are always lobbed short, whites are thrown hard and long, all others are just plain old throws like I'm over-hand tossing an apple to my friend across the hall. Not very powerful.
6) Latched on pikmin can be destroyed with a smash attack (most common occurrence when throws are effective, which is rare).

Clearly, the attack isn't great. Not only that, reliance on throwing pikmin is a bad thing. I've seen it where people only run around tossing the colorful little demons and end up getting cornered with no pikmin. The second they try to spawn some, they are knocked off course.

2. The pikmin are not easily killed, yes, but that's only when they're not used. As soon as they are thrown, they are as vulnerable as Olimar is without pikmin, or as vulnerable as the Chicago Bulls were in '96 without MJ. It's frightening.

3. After admitting recover is bad, there isn't much to talk about. The "mindgames" are just that; they don't work, just like hypnosis is a scam to get people to purchase naptime at a psychiatrist's office. Down b, my opponent claims that the first few seconds initiate invulnerability. This is false; it only lasts for a fraction of a second, so it is hard to time with an opponent attack. Moreover, Olimar can't move for an equal amount of time (until the rainbow sparkles or whatever the hell that whistle emits, subsides). That would leave Olimar invincible, then completely defenseless, in order. That's begging defeat.

After saying that people don't know how to use him correctly, my opponent never offers a "correct usage" method for which we can use Olimar, to prove that he is not a bad character.

My arguments are few.

1. Olimar's smash attacks are weak, and [ALL] rely on pikmin- this leads many to the common belief that he is weak. He can rarely knock opponent's off course.

2. Olimar's Final Smash is easily avoidable. If you button mash, you can get out of the ground after being dug into it, and then a jump and tilting the control stick towards the edge of the map will leave the rocket ship drop worthless. Moroever, if the map has any platforms in the center, the rocket ship always hits them, so being at the corners leaves the explosion to far to have an impact.

3. Olimar is short and small-bodied, so is easily hit off of the map. See video 1 again :)

I will offer more videos if required, but that's all I feel like looking up. I wish my opponent luck.
Debate Round No. 1
Arithmetician

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for taking this debate. Now to get this started.

Your first video proves nothing.

Your second video shows a terribly played Olimar. The Olimar player shown in the video made extremely poor decisions, such as staying Pikminless for too long and doing random moves, all while not even concentrating on his opponent. It's not Olimar's fault he lost the battle, but rather the poor player using him.

Now to counter my opponent's arguments.

1. Yes, all characters have powerful moves, but Olimar's stands out before the rest. With multiple white pikmin, Pikmin Throw's damage soars, doing more damage than just about any attack.

1) Yes they can be blocked, but they will beat the opponent's shield. With many Pikmin latched on, careless players will find their shield broken.
2, 3, 4, and 6) This is there the mindgames come in. While the opponent is busy attacking, dodging the Pikmin being lobbed at him/her, Olimar can rush in for a free grab or smash while the opponent is left vulnerable after attacking or dodging.

"I've seen it where people only run around tossing the colorful little demons and end up getting cornered with no pikmin. The second they try to spawn some, they are knocked off course."
That's the player's fault for carelessly using his Pikmin. Good Olimar players know when to throw their Pikmin and when to pluck some more.

2. Like I said before, Olimar can instantly replenish his Pikmin supply, so Pikmin being killed is not an issue.

3. These "mindgames" are what separates good Olimar players from bad. Olimar can keep his opponent at bay by using Pikmin Throw mindgames to throw off his opponent, which keeps Olimar from being attack and therefore keeps him from being launched off the stage. I admit, I made a huge mistake about his Down B. What I meant to say was the first few frames, not the first few seconds. This was a foolish error on my part. Anyway, after protecting himself from an attack, Olimar has plenty of time to dodge out of the way of another attack. The "rainbow sparkles" go away quickly.

1. Olimar's smashes are very powerful, especially if Red or Purple Pikmin are used. The only exception are White Pikmin. If they are used for a smash attack, the damage is small with barely any knockback, but that's not Olimar's fault. It's the player's fault for not organizing his/her Pikmin correctly. Also, Olimar's Down Smash is a great tool against people who like to roll-dodge around you a lot.

2. Unless the opponent is someone who can fly really high (Kirby, Pit, Metaknight, etc), the opponent gets a guaranteed 54% damage from the monsters, therefore the rocketship explosion does not matter as much.

3. As I said before, Olimar has the necessary tools to prevent himself from being launched off the map, therefore size and weight don't matter.

I now await a response from my opponent.
m93samman

Con

Thanks for the quick response.

I'd like to begin simply by pointing out that my opponent has the burden of proof, and has to do the large portion of substantiating in order to win this round. Also, on a side note, my opponent's organization is atrocious, like Olimar's pikmin usually are. Which is a point I will make later. I'll respond to arguments in the order that my opponent did, that'll be as easy as I can conceive.

First video: I'd argue that it does prove something- the size of his body means it's easy to knock him off because he has little inertia, and, I'm sure my opponent would agree, the game takes physics into account. Bowser and Olimar with 103% damage each will not fly the same distance from the same attack.

Second video: That's my opponent's opinion. If the player chose Link and did the same things (being evasive and throwing around bombs and boomerangs and shooting arrows) he would have been much more effective; Link is better than Olimar in that regard.

"1." I'm not sure how good this argument is. White pikmin rarely come up and, like my opponent later says, white pikmin are severely poor when it comes to smash attacks. What good is high damage dealing abilities when you can barely push your opponent? And there is no reason to believe that just because white pikmin are available, they will work. Like I said, their throw trajectory is preset.

"1)" They will not beat the shield, contrary to my opponent's belief. And when they do latch on, like I said before, one smash in any direction will kill all latched pikmin.

"2, 3, 4 and 6)" (where did 5 go?) It goes the other way around. While trying to distract an opponent with careless pikmin throws, a large character (with an intelligent controller) would rush in for a smash that would K.O the small-bodied Olimar.

"Good Olimar players know when to throw their Pikmin and when to pluck some more". Olimar still sucks.

"2." It is not instant; the time it takes to summon six pikmin (max) is enough time for King Dedede to use his running 'A' attack (dive) half way across the map "Final Destination", or Ganondorf to use his down b after running in a few steps.

"3." My opponent relies on an unreliable "first few frames" for invincibility, which literally lasts for maybe .12 seconds, which is generous. It's only a distracting move that players will attempt to use and end up successful 1 in 50 times.

"1." Notice the contradiction, with this point and the previous. You need a balance between white and non-white pikmin; pikmin creation is random and out of the players' control. I've seen people die trying to throw unwanted pikmin off of the map to spawn white ones, just to fix their order or skew the balance of pikmin towards white.

"2." My opponent his wrong here. With Zelda, I was able to escape with 0% damage as a result of Olimar's Final Smash. One example is enough to prove this point wrong, and there it is. Plus, the issue of a platform in upper-center stage (like on Battlefield) was ignored by my opponent.

"3." No proof provided. See my previous arguments.

______________________________________PERSONAL ANALYSIS__________________________________________

Just off the top of my head, there are a few issues that I feel merit some discussion.

1) My opponent mentions pikmin disorganization as a result of the player. It is very time consuming to sort out pikmin by color and size to the advantage of Olimar, and will potentially result in multiple lost lives.

2) Pikmin thrown are easily killed; it takes a dodge or hit. If Olimar's pikmin are successful 50% of the time (to be generous), 3 land on the player. Then a smash attack will kill all 3, and Olimar will need to summon 6, or, as my opponent proposes, go in for a grab. But given the distance from which pikmin are generally thrown, the other player will have time to avoid the grab. So logically, Olimar will begin plucking pikmin. This cycle (my opponent's main arguments all revolve around pikmin-tossing) will leave the Olimar player at a disadvantage.

3) Olimar's small-body physics is disadvantageous for many reasons; I've killed Olimar with one smash attack by King Dedede even at 0 damage; I knocked him far enough off the map to where he couldn't return after leaving him with only 3 pikmin for his up-B recovery.

4) My opponent needs to come up with an ideal "Good Olimar Player" (GOP :p) for me to refute. If he continues saying that my arguments only pertain to a BOP, then I can't make any arguments. After the standard is provided, the debate will be easier to judge, given a brightline.

I look forward to my opponent's reply.
Debate Round No. 2
Arithmetician

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for his response, and I apologize dearly for my late one. I'm going to keep this final argument short.

Anywho, I'd like to direct your attention to these videos:

These videos show two top professional Smash players at an official Smash tournament. The rules were who wins 3 out of 5 matches wins overall. Despite the fact that one of the players used Meta Knight (who is considered to be the best character in the game), the victory fell into the hands of the Olimar player. This is a GOP, as my opponent calls it. He has perfect control over his Pikmin and uses the right ones in the right situations.

Now to counter my opponent's arguments:

"1) My opponent mentions pikmin disorganization as a result of the player. It is very time consuming to sort out pikmin by color and size to the advantage of Olimar, and will potentially result in multiple lost lives."

The Olimar player can grab the opponent, throw him/her away, then proceed to quickly toss Pikmin off the stage and pluck some more or whistle them into the order the player wishes while the opponent recovers from Olimar's throw.

"2) Pikmin thrown are easily killed; it takes a dodge or hit. If Olimar's pikmin are successful 50% of the time (to be generous), 3 land on the player. Then a smash attack will kill all 3, and Olimar will need to summon 6, or, as my opponent proposes, go in for a grab. But given the distance from which pikmin are generally thrown, the other player will have time to avoid the grab. So logically, Olimar will begin plucking pikmin. This cycle (my opponent's main arguments all revolve around pikmin-tossing) will leave the Olimar player at a disadvantage."

In this statement, my opponent only provides an example of an Olimar using Pikmin Throw at maximum range, and that the opponent is close to the edge of the stage (whereas the Pikmin would die from a dodge by falling off the stage). Let's say Olimar is at close to medium range, and the opponent is nowhere near the edge of the stage. Olimar throws 6 Pikmin, the opponent dodges 3, and they land on the floor and run back to Olimar. The other 3 land on the opponent. The opponent attacks them, and since Olimar's close enough he can run in for a dash grab or another attack of the player's choice while the opponent recovers from their attack.

"3)Olimar's small-body physics is disadvantageous for many reasons; I've killed Olimar with one smash attack by King Dedede even at 0 damage; I knocked him far enough off the map to where he couldn't return after leaving him with only 3 pikmin for his up-B recovery."

I'm going to have to agree with my opponent with this one. Olimar's weight can be detrimental.

"4) My opponent needs to come up with an ideal "Good Olimar Player" (GOP :p) for me to refute. If he continues saying that my arguments only pertain to a BOP, then I can't make any arguments. After the standard is provided, the debate will be easier to judge, given a brightline."

Those videos should do nicely.

Also, please take a gander at this:
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...

In the middle of the page, you can clearly see the current tier list for Brawl. Look who's in spot #8. That's right, it's Olimar. Being #8 out of all those characters is pretty darn good.

This concludes my argument. I patiently await my opponent's response.
m93samman

Con

After displaying his incredible capacity for resilience, my opponent seemed to have retaken the lead. But fear not; I shall climb back to the apex.

I'll begin with some observations:

1) The standard for GOP that my opponent has provided renders me defenseless- although, something was overlooked. The resolution refers to Olimar as a character; what my opponent has done is prove that, in the case of a GOP, Olimar is not bad. But, Olimar remains to have potential flaws that are difficult to overcome.

2) SSB wikia providing that Olimar is in spot 8 says nothing, for two reasons. First, there is absolutely no analysis- it is a probability based chart. Second, we don't know what the standard is for tiers, so we can't analyze good/bad. Not only that, he's tier B, which puts him out of the list of "good" players.

Moving on, I'll keep my responses limited, and simply a summary because my opponent won't have a chance to refute them, seeing as this is the last round.

Olimar's non-cumbersome stature leaves a cumbersome burden on the player- a necessary desire to avoid smash attacks. Seeing as his small size renders him weak, he inherently has a disadvantage of some sort. Moreover, most of the scenarios in which my opponent provides about reorganizing pikmin and catching the opponent off guard with mind games are speculative, for you can never know the true nature of your opponent.

In conclusion, I feel that the burden to prove that Olimar is not a bad character has not been fulfilled by my opponent. Although, I do admit, I am tempted to try him out a few times. I thank my opponent, and new friend, for this wonderful debate, and hope he stays on this site for an interesting future, as opposed to leaving like most first-debaters.

Happy Halloween!
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by xxdarkxx 6 years ago
xxdarkxx
One thing I must say is the the videos in round 3 could have been used as much better evidence then they were. The person playing as metaknight is Mew2King. Mew2King happens to be arguably the best Brawl player in the world. He has won tournament after tournament including MLG tournaments.

He could play as a pixel and still beat anyone on this website.
Posted by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
Good luck good luck :)
Posted by Arithmetician 6 years ago
Arithmetician
@m93samman
:D As you can see from my profile, this is my first debate, so good luck to us both!
Posted by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
happy?
Posted by Arithmetician 6 years ago
Arithmetician
@m93samman
Ok :D

@losedotexe
Bad as in, you know, the "He sucks" bad.

@Sieben
No.
Posted by Sieben 6 years ago
Sieben
Olimar is not metaknight

/debate
Posted by 1stLordofTheVenerability 6 years ago
1stLordofTheVenerability
Olimar is annoying, but I favour his Rocketship after he's taken the Brawl Powerball. :P
Posted by losedotexe 6 years ago
losedotexe
If you can clarify what you mean by 'bad', I might take this debate.
Posted by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
Because I'm in college and I'm not sure how much time I have. I'll think about it, maybe tomorrow :)
Posted by Arithmetician 6 years ago
Arithmetician
@m93samman
If that's what you think, why don't you become my opponent hmm?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Vania.Ruiz 6 years ago
Vania.Ruiz
Arithmeticianm93sammanTied
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Vote Placed by WhoDaFoo4 6 years ago
WhoDaFoo4
Arithmeticianm93sammanTied
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