The Instigator
colelevine
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Jifpop09
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

America needs to reboot back to our founding principles, or our liberty will eventually evanesce.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Jifpop09
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/16/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 751 times Debate No: 46050
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

colelevine

Pro

British philosopher C.S. Lewis wrote, "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
Conservatives indubitably understand that liberty prevails as a treasure that not every society has. It is a gift, not to be neglected. It is a privilege to be defended by the people and the armed services. In order to accomplish this, despotism must be counteracted or extirpated. There must be an equal balance of authority, as too much power is jeopardizing to a free civilization. The citizens of a free nation must have rights that can never be taken away or worked around. As radio commentator Mark Levin said, "Conservatives don't hate government, they hate tyranny." If conservatives do not come to grips with America's tyrannical transition, America, the "once free" country will be like many other countries: once was free.
Jifpop09

Con

Alright. I accept my opponents challenge. He may go a head and post his first argument.
Debate Round No. 1
colelevine

Pro

If America does not watch where it is headed it will stumble miserably. We need a reality check. Our founding fathers gave us a gift of freedom, and they set up an excellent way to run this country. In the way they set it up, people get to be free, no one gets too much power, and everyone can chase the American Dream. It's a win-win.
In 2014, it is different.
If you are financially successful, you are basically punished to serve those who are unsuccessful by taxation.
Our healthcare is following the treacherous path that Canada took. They failed miserably, as life saving surgeries have long waits, and there are shortages of doctors.
Our supreme courts have too much power, for example the judicial-review. Which far exceeds the framer's intent, by establishing a legislative veto.
Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are going bankrupt. These programs have accumulated over $50,000,000,000,000.00
in IOU's payable by our next generations.
Our spending is out of control. We need a budget, as we are on a reckless path.
President Ronald Reagan siad, "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction... It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States to be free."
Jifpop09

Con

I was under the impression this debate would be about a restoration of american roots, not whoever can give the best speech. Most of this seems to show incredible conservative bias, so I will attempt to stray from that in my debate. I would like to clarify that I'm not arguing that are founding principals are wrong, but that we need to be more progressive in our acceptance of new principals and ideas.

Things have changed.
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The world has changed a lot since good ol' washingtons day. We have been through the enlightenment , modernization, progressivism, and introductions to new economic themes and governing styles. Warfare has changed. Markets have changed. Government has changed. America is on the brink of a new era, and we can be the forerunners.


Traditionalism can be dangerous.
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There is no doubt that if a nation is unwilling to reform, there will be consequences. Let me give a few examples.

- Enlightenment: Russia, was sadly left out of the enlightenment era. While other european nations were thriving in new religious reforms and educational advances, Russia was still being subjected to the medieval social structure. It took 100s of years to recover from the effects. Which left Russia weak compared to its neighbors.

-Modernization: Many nations had fallen by failing to modernize in the 1800's. Many of the nations had the ability to modernize, but they choose instead to stick with tradition. It turned out terribly for them. Nearly every nation on earth had been colonized. All due to favoring tradition over progression.

- Progressive Era: The progressive era was marked by many changes in how the government should interact with its citizens. America was the leader in new reforms, such as mininum wage, womens suffrage, and social policies. Many of these things were very new to Americans. By the time it was all over, America had become a super power. Not because we stuck to tradition, but because we realized the need to progress.

Rebuttals
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Conservatives indubitably understand that liberty prevails as a treasure that not every society has. It is a gift, not to be neglected.

And so do democrats, liberals, and independents. From the day we are born we are taught to love our country. Something not exclusive to conservatives.


"Conservatives don't hate government, they hate tyranny."

I am a liberal progressive, and I hate tyranny as much as the next guy, but nothing has changed much since our founding. The president is still elected roughly the same way, and is exercising no power not given by the framers of the constitution.

Our founding fathers gave us a gift of freedom, and they set up an excellent way to run this country. In the way they set it up, people get to be free, no one gets too much power, and everyone can chase the American Dream. It's a win-win.

How has this freedom been taken from you? Is someone out there restricting you from pursuing your dreams?

If you are financially successful, you are basically punished to serve those who are unsuccessful by taxation.

Yet we are all family within our borders. Do we not share among our family? Or do we let our less successful brothers and sisters struggle with poverty and hunger, just so we can teach them to try harder?

Our spending is out of control. We need a budget, as we are on a reckless path.

Our government is not so reckless to not make as to not make a budget. In fact, here is this years...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

President Ronald Reagan siad, "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction... It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States to be free."

I am of the opinion that a human life has more value then idealistic freedom. Freedom can be won and lost, but happiness, laughter, family, and friends are all I need to make it to the end of the day.

Sources
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http://www.e-ir.info...
http://www.regentsprep.org...
Debate Round No. 2
colelevine

Pro

My text was not merely a speech but it was a good review over everything we have wrong in this country. I was just telling the facts, without a bias.
Times change, and the framers even said the Constitution will need change. Our constitution has been amended a total of 27 times. Whether our constitution is being nostalgic to the "Good ol' Washington days", or being realistic to now, we still need to follow it and respect it until it is changed again. So conservatives do not exactly believe in Traditionalism, but they want America to follow all of the rules and rights of our current documents.
I totally respect the idea that Traditionalism can be dangerous, but what about our traditional ways can be dangerous? Freedom of speech, or do we constantly need Progressives trying to limit what is being said on talk-radio.
The Progressive Era had many consequences on this country.
During the Great Depression, the Progressives launched a counterrevolution that radically and fundamentally altered the nature of American society. President FDR and an overwhelmingly Democratic congress, through an array of federal projects, taxes, entitlements, and regulations known as The New Deal, which breached the constitution's firewalls. At first the SUpreme Court fought back, striking down New Deal programs as exceeding the limits of federal constitutional authority, violating state sovereignty, and trampling on private property rights. But rather than seek an expansion of federal government through the amendment process, he threatened the very makeup of the court by proposing to pack it with sympathetic judges that would go along with his counterrevolution. The federal government began passing laws and creating administrative agencies at a dizzying pace, increasing its control over economic activity and, hence, individual liberty. It used taxation not merely to fund constitutionally legitimate governmental activities, but also to redistribute wealth, finance, welfare programs, set prices and production limits, create huge public work programs, and establish pension and unemployment programs. From this era forward, the Democratic Party and the federal government would become inextricably intertwined, and the Democratic Party would become as dependent on federal power for its sustenance as the governmental dependents it would create. Ironically, industrial expansion resulting from WWll eventually ended the Great Depression, not the New Deal. Indeed, yes, the enormous tax and regulatory burden imposed on the private sector by the New Deal prolonged the economic recovery.
Democrats do understand or appreciate the true value of liberty. Instead they set out to throw it away. They want more government, temporary solutions that are consequential in the long run, higher taxes, more welfare, social programs, e.t.c.
Everything has changed since our founding. The government works around the constitution, the government is much bigger and more authorizing than ever before.
Did I ever say that I could not chase my dreams? I just said that it was eligible in the way the framers set it up.
Sharing with our "family" is not being forced to provide money at gunpoint, is it?
Jifpop09

Con

Times change, and the framers even said the Constitution will need change. Our constitution has been amended a total of 27 times.

Sounds like a partial concession.


Whether our constitution is being nostalgic to the "Good ol' Washington days", or being realistic to now, we still need to follow it and respect it until it is changed again.

This is true, but I disagree that we need to backtrack. Some of the founding principals are in need of change, and rebooting could be dangerous.

I totally respect the idea that Traditionalism can be dangerous, but what about our traditional ways can be dangerous? Freedom of speech, or do we constantly need Progressives trying to limit what is being said on talk-radio.

Progressives advocate for freedom of speech. As moderates, they seek to progresion in freedoms as much as the left or right.


During the Great Depression, the Progressives launched a counterrevolution that radically and fundamentally altered the nature of American society. President FDR and an overwhelmingly Democratic congress, through an array of federal projects, taxes, entitlements, and regulations known as The New Deal, which breached the constitution's firewalls. At first the SUpreme Court fought back, striking down New Deal programs as exceeding the limits of federal constitutional authority, violating state sovereignty, and trampling on private property rights.

The new deal was controversial for the time, but most generally agree it was effective. The fact that a law that went against tradition ended up working, speaks volumes for the need to change.

Democrats do understand or appreciate the true value of liberty. Instead they set out to throw it away. They want more government, temporary solutions that are consequential in the long run, higher taxes, more welfare, social programs, e.t.c.

I can assure you that democrats want freedom as mucgh as any other group. We are simply trying to afford that freedom to all our citizens. 25% of citizens who go on welfare for 2-5 years, end up recovering. Welfare is a way to boost back citizens into the working world, and to get them back on their feet. Does it need reform? Sure! Few are in favor of status quos in the US. As for raising taxes, democrats actually seek to lower taxes for the 99%.

Did I ever say that I could not chase my dreams? I just said that it was eligible in the way the framers set it up.

You said it like it was no longer possible in the current system.

Sharing with our "family" is not being forced to provide money at gunpoint, is it?

Taxes are nothing new. People who have citizenship are considered family, and if you don't provide for the family, then you get booted out. It is a little harsh, but it is what makes the nation wealthy, so we can afford all the luxuries we have.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by colelevine 3 years ago
colelevine
Ok. Post your argument. I understand now.
Posted by Jifpop09 3 years ago
Jifpop09
Yeah, sorry about that. I wanted to accept, but I was unsure, so I went back to the basics. We can debate civilly now though.
Posted by colelevine 3 years ago
colelevine
Why don't you try posting a comment? I would love to have a debate, but I do not appreciate the insults for expressing my opinion.
Posted by Jifpop09 3 years ago
Jifpop09
Ohhh, now I can't accept this, as I just said Idiot. Oh well.
Posted by Jifpop09 3 years ago
Jifpop09
The conservatives appear to be the biggest idiots on this site.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by donald.keller 3 years ago
donald.keller
colelevineJifpop09Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct and Spelling are even. Con made a real case while Pro seemed to only preach of a classic, and slightly misread, history... Bring up the gift to be free as though Slaves didn't exist then... Con defended his case with sources and reasoning. Pro simply didn't put forth a case... He argued that we should return, not why it'd be better.