The Instigator
JustinChains
Pro (for)
Winning
22 Points
The Contender
headphonegut
Con (against)
Losing
15 Points

America should have a Border Wall surrounding it's borders.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
JustinChains
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/15/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,995 times Debate No: 15972
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (6)

 

JustinChains

Pro

It is in my firm opinion that America should build a Border Wall on the borders of Mexico and on the borders of Canada.

My reasons for this wall are as follows...

[1]

This will create jobs... Jobs that are desperately needed in America right now.

Here are some of the ways it would create jobs...

- Through the construction phase of the border wall. This will create work for all the related businesses in the construction of this project.

- Through the construction phase of all the buildings for maintenance, faculty, utilities, and storage needed once this project would be completed.

- Through the construction of all the roads that will need to be built in order to travel to and from all areas of the border wall.

- Through the demand for faculty, border guards, maintenance crew, and any other personnel that would be needed in operating the border wall and adjoining facilities.

[2]

Having this border wall would greatly diminish the success of drugs, weapons, illegal immigrants, and anything else that America does not want coming across it's borders.

[3]

Because the number of illegal immigrants that come across the border will be under control, a couple of beneficial things will happen to America.

- Due to the lack of cheap labor, wages will rise and competition between small businesses in the labor trades will become easier.

- Due to the rise in wages and easier competitive market, businesses and people will earn and spend more money.

- Due to businesses and people spending more money, demand grows.

- Due to demand growing, businesses will need to produce more supply in order to meet the demand.

- Due to businesses needing to fill more demand, they will become more productive, make more money, and need more employees.

- Due to businesses becoming more productive, making more money, and needing more employees, job positions are created and filled by unemployed citizens.

- Due to these unemployed citizens earnings new income, they contribute to the pool of taxes and stimulate the economy.

- Due to the economy being stimulated, all of the above continue to happen.

All of these scenarios I have painted are of great benefit to America and I can not think of a single reason on how this border wall could have a negative effect on our Nation's image or health.

If you feel that you can give me one... Then accept my debate.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing your perspective.

- Justin Chains -
headphonegut

Con

hello and thank you for starting this debate.

"Jobs... are desperately needed in America right now."
what is your basis for this contention?

what material would you use for "the wall" and what kind of architecture or architect would you use and how long would "the wall" be? furthermore how would you ship the "material" and where would it come from? what people would apply for this "job?" and will you build said "facilities"? and do these people that "maintain" the facilities need learning experience? how about the "border guards" do they need training?

2. "Anything else that America does not want coming across it's borders." what else would America not want? small latino people? is there a majority vote on what constitutes what America wants? and as for drugs, weapons what makes you say America doesn't want those? and what makes you think Americans don't smuggle weapons into Mexico for the drug cartels.

3. Isn't there a border already and isn't it failing?
what kind of cheap labor do you mean? not enough Mickey'ds how bout Wendy's? competition will be easier? why would you want that? and how will businesses and people earn and spend more money?

there will be no rise in wages because a lack of something doesn't mean you get something else like money people will just find more people to fill the lawn mowers, so you haven't said why wages will rise, furthermore there probably won't be any raise in wages because you haven't said who's being paid and why they're being paid and how the wall affects them.

"businesses and people spending more money demand grows" why will they be spending money and why will demand grow? and a growing demand of what?

supply of what? and what demand?

what businesses are you talking about? And what are they making or selling that people are buying?

Do the employees that these businesses are looking for need training or a sort of specialty in a field or a degree?

what unemployed citizens?

"all of the above will continue to happen." what? where? in a vacuum world? and why will it be constant?

How it's negative
1. material that is needed to build a wall must also be transferred by trucks that spend gas and needs truck drivers to drive them and the material needs buying.
2.all of these people guards, maintenance, architectures, management, and carpenters, are needed to be paid
and who besides illegal immigrants are willing to do this sort of job. the guards need training and the training need to be funded. ultimately everyone needs to be paid.

conclusion: you said that jobs are desperately needed which implies that people need money and that people are being laid off from their jobs because there is no money. one final question where is the money to pay all these people going to come from? the gov't? that's a very nice way of saying the people isn't it. that seems a bit redundant they're going to pay themselves? the solution can't be throwing more money into the fire to stop the fire.

negated
Debate Round No. 1
JustinChains

Pro

[1]

I said... "Jobs... are desperately needed in America right now."
Con says... "what is your basis for this contention?"

Answer - Jobs are always needed Con, in any nation. It is one of the many ways a nation grows stronger.

[2]

Con says... "what material would you use for "the wall" and what kind of architecture......"border guards" do they need training?"

1.)

Q = "what material would you use for "the wall" and what kind of architecture or architect would you use and how long would "the wall" be? furthermore how would you ship the "material" and where would it come from?"

A = All of these questions would be left to the Military Architect for answering and have no relevance as to the importance of building a border wall in general.

2.)

Q = "what people would apply for this "job?" and will you build said "facilities"? and do these people that "maintain" the facilities need learning experience? how about the "border guards" do they need training?"

A = (Q1) Any people that qualify for the job. (Q2) The same forces that build the wall would build the facilities.
(Q3) Some of the employees will need previous experience in a similar field and some would not, as applies to any job. (Q4) Depending on previous work experience , some of the border guards would need training and some would not.

I would like to state that my opponent asks questions that are irrational in concluding the importance of building a border wall in general. Most of these questions are not relevant to the debate and most are answered through common sense. Do to time constraints.. I will not answer common sense questions after this round.

That being said... I will move on.

I do not have enough space to answer all 1001 of cons questions.. So I will argue with this as my final argument for this round...

Con says.. "How it's negative
1. material that is needed to build a wall must also be transferred by trucks that spend gas and needs truck drivers to drive them and the material needs buying.
2.all of these people guards, maintenance, architectures, management, and carpenters, are needed to be paid
and who besides illegal immigrants are willing to do this sort of job. the guards need training and the training need to be funded. ultimately everyone needs to be paid."

1.) What Con explains here is supply and demand, which stimulates the economy and helps it grow.

2.) Any job training that would need to be undertaken would only further stimulate a demand towards current training facilities, which stimulates the economy further.

The budget for building a border wall and how to find this in the budget are not relevant to this debate in my opinion. This debate is about if America "should" or "shouldn't" build this wall. The funding of large construction projects and this one in particular could be a whole debate in itself.

- Conclusion -

My opponent makes a weak argument in this debateand asks far too many irrelevant common sense questions.

- Justin Chains -
headphonegut

Con

you didn't even answer my relevant awesome analogy at the end. Such a shame.

My opponent wants to build a big wall on the borders of america the only reason for this is that he wants to build a lot of jobs. And BTW you dismissed all my question under the category "commen sense" which means you don't have the answers or don't know the answers I think the latter is most likely. Furthermore why the military architect?

2. Your answers are vague and do not satisfy the burden of proof.
which of my questions are irrational?
and you won't answer them or can't answer them?

my opponent then examines my steps to how it's negative and then only focuses on those points and completely ignores the conclusion but let's examine what he deduced

"How it's negative
1. material that is needed to build a wall must also be transferred by trucks that spend gas and needs truck drivers to drive them and the material needs buying.
2.all of these people guards, maintenance, architectures, management, and carpenters, are needed to be paid
and who besides illegal immigrants are willing to do this sort of job. the guards need training and the training need to be funded. ultimately everyone needs to be paid.

conclusion: you said that jobs are desperately needed which implies that people need money and that people are being laid off from their jobs because there is no money. one final question where is the money to pay all these people going to come from? the gov't? that's a very nice way of saying the people isn't it. that seems a bit redundant they're going to pay themselves? the solution can't be throwing more money into the fire to stop the fire."

1.) What Con explains here is supply and demand, which stimulates the economy and helps it grow.

2.) Any job training that would need to be undertaken would only further stimulate a demand towards current training facilities, which stimulates the economy further.

The budget for building a border wall and how to find this in the budget are not relevant to this debate in my opinion. This debate is about if America "should" or "shouldn't" build this wall. The funding of large construction projects and this one in particular could be a whole debate in itself.

1. it's supply and demand? really who is demanding these things except you? you have said people need jobs but not which people you have not proved that anyone needs jobs furthermore what is being supplied and who is demanding it?

2 WHAT DEMAND? you're saying there's a demand who's demanding it? you still haven't even proven that our economy needs stimulating everything is functioning properly as far as our economy goes.

"The budget for building a border wall and how to find this in the budget are not relevant to this debate in my opinion. This debate is about if America "should" or "shouldn't" build this wall. The funding of large construction projects and this one in particular could be a whole debate in itself."

I shouldn't buy a car cause I don't have enough money
Debate Round No. 2
JustinChains

Pro

My opponent has no proper knowledge of how an economy works, nor even what supply and demand means in the context of a nation's economy.

My opponent has no knowledge of the negative state our economy is in.

My opponent falls off topic throughout most of his argument and does not put up any argument as to why a border wall should NOT be built, which is the position he has taken in this debate.

And furthermore I grow tired of my opponents unintelligent questions that don't efficiently apply to this topic.

For this I refute my opponent's argument entirely so far.

Why should America NOT build a border wall?

That is your burden as my opponent. I ask you to carry your burden properly, so we can have an intelligent debate.

If you are not capable of doing so, then why have you accepted this debate?

I can feel the passion in your words...the emotion. But you make no intelligent arguments for why an American border wall should NOT be built.
headphonegut

Con

that's just bad argumentation it's not about the money it's about morality.

if that was true why did you present the benefits of the border wall in mula? by your logic you haven't made an argument either and you haven't answered my questions. the burden is on you. Who presented or challenged someone to debate you did. who took the aff. or the one who has the burden of proof? you did. so you haven't presented an argument I have. and if you still insist that I haven't then that makes us tie and the tie goes to me because somebody has to win and you have to prove that your case is above mine not tie.
Debate Round No. 3
JustinChains

Pro

My argument is clear. My reasons for my opinion are clearly laid out in my opening round. Supporting arguments, opinions, and statements have been dispersed in the following rounds. I've carried my burden on why I feel America should have this wall. You haven't carried your burden in why you feel America shouldn't have this wall. You ask questions, questions that are common sense and/or don't carry the weight of your burden.

Your opposition in this debate is weak and you carry your burden badly.

I was hoping for a great opponent. I will be more careful in selecting the debate parameters for who can participate in the future.

Why shouldn't this wall be built? I have given my reasons for why it should be built. The burden has shifted. Please quit asking 1000 questions and carry your burden.

What are your reasons for why you accepted this debate and for why you are in opposition to my perspective.

This is your burden now. I have carried my burden to your feet.
headphonegut

Con

no they're not

the negative only has to cast doubt not show any proof

I will be more careful to never again debate you.

I was hoping for a logical opponent.

why "should" the wall be built? you still haven't said why.

it's you burden not mine
Debate Round No. 4
JustinChains

Pro

I will never debate with you again either and I'm glad we agree on that fact. Your picture shows a reflection of immaturity and general rudeness, which I must conclude reflects your personality, considering you chose it.

I carried my burden and gave my reasons for why I feel this wall should be built in the very first round and all you have done is waste my time ever since then. I will copy and paste my reasons again to show how I have carried my burden.

It is in my firm opinion that America should build a Border Wall on the borders of Mexico and on the borders of Canada.

My reasons for this wall are as follows...

[1]

This will create jobs... Jobs that are desperately needed in America right now.

Here are some of the ways it would create jobs...

- Through the construction phase of the border wall. This will create work for all the related businesses in the construction of this project.

- Through the construction phase of all the buildings for maintenance, faculty, utilities, and storage needed once this project would be completed.

- Through the construction of all the roads that will need to be built in order to travel to and from all areas of the border wall.

- Through the demand for faculty, border guards, maintenance crew, and any other personnel that would be needed in operating the border wall and adjoining facilities.

[2]

Having this border wall would greatly diminish the success of drugs, weapons, illegal immigrants, and anything else that America does not want coming across it's borders.

[3]

Because the number of illegal immigrants that come across the border will be under control, a couple of beneficial things will happen to America.

- Due to the lack of cheap labor, wages will rise and competition between small businesses in the labor trades will become easier.

- Due to the rise in wages and easier competitive market, businesses and people will earn and spend more money.

- Due to businesses and people spending more money, demand grows.

- Due to demand growing, businesses will need to produce more supply in order to meet the demand.

- Due to businesses needing to fill more demand, they will become more productive, make more money, and need more employees.

- Due to businesses becoming more productive, making more money, and needing more employees, job positions are created and filled by unemployed citizens.

- Due to these unemployed citizens earnings new income, they contribute to the pool of taxes and stimulate the economy.

- Due to the economy being stimulated, all of the above continue to happen.

*************************************************************************************

That was me giving my reasons again for why we should build a border wall. I feel a great loss for having wasted my time in dealing with such an opponent. What reasons has my opponent given in opposition for why this border wall should not be built?

My opponent's opposing argument is what? Exactly.

Thank you for your time.
headphonegut

Con

blah blah blah same post

everyone please don't vote
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
A wretched debate in which Pro's only sound argument was his second contention, and he immediately dropped that. The reason building the fence doesn't create jobs directly is that it would be paid for by taxes, and the taxes result in costing more jobs than the fence would create. The big costs of illegal immigration is in welfare costs and in the criminal justice system, where a high percentage of serious felons are illegals.

We should build a border fence. The best type is two fences with a patrol road between them and security cameras. That is proven to work extremely well.

Once the borders are secure, immigration reform will be politically possible, so we can get on with setting up a system of guest worker permits and so forth.
Posted by headphonegut 6 years ago
headphonegut
why did you vote? unvote both of you
Posted by Silver_Falcon 6 years ago
Silver_Falcon
Pro: "My opponent has no proper knowledge of how an economy works, nor even what supply and demand means in the context of a nation's economy."

What a joke after all his primitive fallacies, he gives. The most obvious one is the "digging ditches" fllacy that we need jobs, ignoring the productivity. You can offer all the people as many jobs as you can, but you cant fund it if it is not productive (you just waste capital - both money and workforce).
Lowering competition in jobs certainly won't help bussiness. It will just make them uncompetitive to the rest of world. Pro perhaps see the economy as a numbers play in increasing GDP by whatever means, ignoring the real processes behind (diminishing capital). He fails to see the fundamental role of economic calculation - using rare resources to maximize their utility.

Con is right in that Pro's argumentation is wrong and basicly lot of his question are valid, but he should have attacked the fallacies more directly (but that perhaps require more knowledge about history of economic tought).
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Aaronroy 6 years ago
Aaronroy
JustinChainsheadphonegutTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Con was very rude while Pro made very good points
Vote Placed by Cobo 6 years ago
Cobo
JustinChainsheadphonegutTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro insulted Con Con did not uphold BoP.
Vote Placed by socialpinko 6 years ago
socialpinko
JustinChainsheadphonegutTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Does no one notice that justinchains clearly has multiple accounts and awarded himself 7 points?
Vote Placed by Justin_Chains 6 years ago
Justin_Chains
JustinChainsheadphonegutTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: A border wall might help with some of America's problems.
Vote Placed by whatisx 6 years ago
whatisx
JustinChainsheadphonegutTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: the questions are valid and con is supposed to make pro's argument doubtful and illogical con did that furthermore pro refused to even debate he simply says no I told you answers don't matter to a debate you're not debating, and then went on to simply say nothing relevant.
Vote Placed by joshjenkns 6 years ago
joshjenkns
JustinChainsheadphonegutTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: negative never made any arguments, just asked about the specifics of wall. Aff presented a case and neg didnt or even attack the Aff's therefore vote has to go to the Aff. both fell to Ad hominem fallacy in the third round and the rest of the debate making the debate pointless.