America should not take more extreme measures to win wars.

hi this is my first time being on this site (so please tell me if I'm doing something wrong). and I'm looking forward to a lot of fun :P anyways. also I don't know what this should go under so I'm going place it under miscellaneous.

on another forum me and another guy were discussing the topic of whether or not America should stop humanizing our enemies and basically take more "extreme measures". one of his main points was that US soldiers are dieing because of the fact that they are holding back too much when civilians are around. his extreme measures are to do what ever is needed to win regardless of the civilian casualties.
here is a link to the original arguement if your interested. it starts on page 24 (actualy 23 but it really started after that) and ends on page 29.
http://forums.ubi.com...

my position on the matter is that the US should not, take more "extreme measures". and that stopping the humanization of our enemies will lead to our demise. also the world will not allow us to take more "extreme measures". they would step in to stop us. soldiers SHOULD hold back when civilians are in danger.

As you stated in your argument, our men and women fighting for us are dieing because of your lack of "extreme measures." I say kill them all and get the heck outta there. Do you thing the guy with a C4 vest cares about the civilians? Do you think he cares that he might kill a civilian along with the solder?

If you ever has been to a kindergarten or preschool they will say "treat others as you would want to treat you." If you don't remember, they flew two freaking air planes into the world trade center, and they sent another two to the pentagon and the whitehouse. Shouldn't we not worry about collateral damage?? they blew us up and killed or civilians, lets go back to that preschool lesson and turn it around from "treat others as you would want to treat you" to "treat others as they treat you" take it from the lessons of preschool teachers around the world, take the "extreme measures."

Also Mr deamonic, take it from the English teachers of the world, you must put the period inside the quote marks.

if you so worried about soldiers being killed then why go to war at all? why not just stay home? cmon people its called war for a reason, it is not pretty. its not like you are running around picking flowers. soldiers will die.

the terrorist does not care who he kills that is true. but does that mean that we shouldn't? should we become the very enemy we hate? then why are we so angry at them. we should stop fighting them and join them in blowing others up.

also your the golden rule that you mentioned there, "treat others how you wish to be treated." is not how you are using it. The version you mentioned is more like "Treat others how they treat you". ill refer to the first one as the golden rule now. the golden rule is meant to stop the cycle, not continue it. its means to make you stop before hitting them back and go, "this isn't what I want to happen to me, if I do it to them, then I have no right to complain that they did so to me."

point being if we stop caring and go all out, in my opinion we are not only no better then those whom we hate, but we would be far far worse. because we would know its wrong. they view it as the right thing to do. we wouldn't.

further more, these extreme actions we have seen thought the history of the world, scar the soldiers we order to do such things. they are more or less ruined by these actions. speak to many of the soldiers from Vietnam. the things that they did haunt many of them to this day. while the soldier may live, and may is the key word there, they will be broken, and in a destroyed state. can you really call that living?

Also the world as it is now, will not stand by and watch these actions take place, specifically if they are from a major super power. now these things do happen in other parts of the world and not much is done to help them. what I am saying is that, the world will not simply stand by and watch as America slaughters their neighbors. the country themselves would ask the rest of the world to help protect them from us! and Russia would most certainly come to their aid, if for no other reason then to oppose America.

(bow I know my spelling and grammar suck! :P)

I'm not worried, nor did I say I was. Your the one who made my argument in the first round you said "...US soldiers are dieing because of the fact that they are holding back too much when civilians are around." Yes Soldiers die, civilians die, and someday you and I will die. In your second paragraph, I believe you answered you won question, which is absurd. You said "should we become the very enemy we hate?" Look 8 Words to the right, "we should stop fighting them and join them in blowing others up." In that case you would be agreeing with me, blowing others up would hurt civilians, these making it a "extreme measure."

"...because we would know its wrong. they view it as the right thing to do. we wouldn't."
Tell that to obama's cabinet, than may they will pay their taxes. The government doesn't care.

I believe in your fifth statement you are referring to shell shock, which can be treated. If you haven't noticed we aren't in WWII or Vietnam we are in Iraq, hiding in our humvees, not shooting at anyone because they might be civilians, and as we are slowly being picked off all we will remember is the heat of the desert.

If you can't tell, no one cares, yea we might loose an alliance and those Russians coming to help, probably wouldn't. If anything they would begin to rebuild the union before providing aid.

(what is "bow?")

actually if you reread the first statement, I was stating that's what someone else thought.

soldiers are dieing because its war. not because of civilians. the fact is that if we stop humanizing our enemies. we are no better then those whom we hate. if we stop caring if there are civilians around, we basically become our enemy. why fight back if that is the case?

America is currently fighting a war on terrorism. how can we do this, if we take the same actions as the terrorists themselves? meaning if we stop trying to keep the civilian casualties low, how are we any better then they are?

also, I didn't post it as clearly as I thought I did. I was not agreeing with you. I posted this "should we become the very enemy we hate? we should stop fighting them and join them in blowing others up." what I should have put to make it more clear was this "if that be the case then we should stop fighting them and join them in blowing others up." because if we are going to do the same actions as them why are we fighting them ? we are fighting them because we disagree with their actions. the world disagrees.

lets say that America is invaded. are you really going to tell me that you are ok with enemy soldiers breaking into your house and killing your entire family, because they think, (key word, THINK) that there may be an enemy there? or because they are taking those extreme measures to try to win? your kids are killed by enemy soldiers simply because they were trying to find food. they would have lived if the soldiers had taken some precautions but, they said, we need more extreme measures.

killing everything that moves will NOT lead to peace, a quick end to the war, or to less soldiers dieing. what it will do, is it will cause the war to escalate and give our enemies even more reasons to fight us. every civilian you kill would become a symbol of why America is evil. its already being viewed that way, but no where near to the extent it would be. because of the fact that America HAS gone through great lengths to help the civilians, we are not viewed by all yet as evil.

if we go all out, our own allies will step in to stop us. we will be left with NO friends or allies in the world. further more like I said, Russia and America have always been against one another. if we started taking these extreme measures, and they asked Russia to come help. Russia WOULD come and help. because that's a big move, and America would have to do one of 2 things. attack or retreat. if we attack then the rest of the world joins with Russia and beats the crap out America. if we retreat we look weak and pathetic. Russia would stand to gain A LOT from us going all out.

also yes I'm referring to shell shock, it can be treated, but the fact that the actions caused this, show that they should not be done. you will have a great deal of soldiers whom speak up about it should they be ordered to do what ever. what will you do then if you soldiers turn against you? kill them too? what about American civilians, whom will protest the war, far more then any before? why not switch over to a dictatorship?

the idea of soldiers is that they are there to protect the government and civilian populations of their country. however, that has changed over the thousands of years. we now actively recognize that just because they were born somewhere else, it does not make them any less human.

civilians did not fly planes into the towers. civilians do not plant bombs on the road. granted some do, but not all. we CANNOT hold the actions of a few accountable to all. it goes ageist the very core of America to do the things that would be considered "extreme measures."

(bow, was supposed to be BTW, which means by the way)

I'm sorry it is you mistake of words of agreeing with me, and you cant change your story now.

You can not die because of war, for war is not a object. I if we make Iraq glow, than there is no problem. We must think of this from there side, they came to attack us because we are one nation UNDER GOD and they are all but a handful Muslim, they believe that with the more Christians killed the more virgins, they get in heaven. all Muslims believe that, civilian or not, they hate us and out of self defence we should cut them down. If you are surrounded by lions, you don't know that ALL of them are going to attack you, do you not kill them all? and if the one or two you don't kill attacks you, should we be sad that we killed the ones that weren't going to attack?

Yes and if America is invaded God forbid, I would most likely have some solders living with me because of lack of space where I live, and the constitution says that if we are invaded, we have to let the soldiers move in with us. We also can have guns to kill them and other civilians in our defence. If I was without a gun or some spare GIs around my house, I would be fine if they killed me or my family, for we are responsible for the actions of our government and others around us. As a side note, I would be happy to die for I know where I'm going when I'm gone. Truth be told, unless Mexico upraises you don't have to worry of a invasion down there.

AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GOVERNMENT OR THE WAY IT WORKS GO TO CANADA!!

You are responsible for the government as well as itself, thus making you a enemy or a good guy. If you don't like it, become a refugee.

In response to your statement of Russia smashing us.
O YEE OF LITTLE FAITH!!! the only way Russia -and anyone other than Canada and Mexico for that matter- can attack us is only with missiles or from the air, unless you have been living under a rock for the past 50 years you should know about our large freakin awesome anti air systems we have, I am referring to the star wars and patriot, not to mention the agus fleet. Also since we stick up for those around us, if some one were to sent large amounts of troops to Mexico or Canada somehow, than we would assume that they were going to invade Mexico/ Canada and smoush them.

DUH everything is caused by actions, that is like saying "teen pregnancy, oh May gosh we just shouldn't have sex anymore" or "we shouldn't have sex ed anymore." How the heck did you get from not having extreme measures to dictatorship??? For those who protest the war, they aren't enemy, why would we kill them? for the soldiers, if our lives are at stake yea we should apprehend them at least.

"the idea of soldiers is that they are there to protect the government and civilian populations of their country. however, that has changed over the thousands of years. we now actively recognize that just because they were born somewhere else, it does not make them any less human." Where the heck did you get that idea? yea they are human but they messed with us first, self defence, their people messed with our people thus giving a reputation under what they believe in. if we mess with them than we must be ready to defend ourselves and our friends. If a senior picks on you little sister who is a kinder gardner on the playground, do you defend her or say, "you are a human too, so I won't hurt you or say anything to you."

Yea civilians fly planes into towers and plant bombs, I did not long ago, I had a plane made of paper and it hit a tower, and I set off some fireworks. and again I say a man is just as good as his government. Also might I say that not all Nazis Killed Jews, should we not hold these people to what they did? And what do you believe the core values of America are?

i never agreed with you, you misread what i had said.

it seems that you think iraq and iran attacked us. which is incorrect.

Iraq did NOT attack the US. a terrorist organization did. basically you are taking your anger out on them because they live in the same region. we were not retaliating to the attack on the towers. we were going in there for a few different reasons. 1: it was believed that Iraq had WMD (weapons of mass distruction) when they were not supposed to. we invaded to get those weapons away from a mad man. (and i do consider him a mad man, anyone who commits mass murder is insane in my opinion) 2: when it turned out that we didnt find any, we shifted the reason of being there to mainly freeing iraq from his rule. agian, these 2 things had nothing to do with the attacks on america by the terrorists. the only thing that the attack DID do, was that it made americans patriotic for a period. the government used this chance to declare war when they knew the public would be least likely to agrue agianst it. 3: the reason for invading other countries was to hunt down the terrorist organization that attacked us. this is what we call the war on terrorism.

agian, civilians do not plant bombs. civilians dont kill innocent people. thos who do are no longer civilians and are considered terrorists.

your point about the lions doesnt work here. because these situations are vastly different to that. if your surrounded by 10 lines and they are all staring at you, there is a fair chance they will attack you. but that is ONLY because you are a food source to them. humans are far more complex in how they act. If i die because i chose not to kill a civilian whom has nothing to do with this war, then so be it. i refuse to sink as low as those we chose to say are evil and the ones whom are wrong.

basically what you state in the second paragraph is that actions of others should be held accountable for all. with that in mind, one of you friends friends firends friends friend, attacked me. im gonna attack you for it. does this seem fair to you? yes civilians should not be held accountable for the actions of their government. BUT only to a certain degree.

if i choose to disagree with the government thats my choice, America is NOT a country of follow or get out. that is a dictatorship. America is a country where if you dont like it then speak the hell up. that is exactly the ideals that america was founded on! also this country is founded on the idea of everyone is equal. you say not to go agianst the government yet here you are argueing agianst them. the government is saying we need to humanize our enemies, and your saying no they dont. seems kinda contradictory doesnt it?

the creation of the first soldiers was for the very reason of protection. to protect what you had agianst other forces. only later did it become an attack force as well. (granted not much later)

also your statement of the kinder gardner doesnt fit here. you wouldnt kill the guy whom picks on your sister would you? there is a fine line that must not be crossed. telling the guy to back off is fine. killing the guy... not so much. killing the guy with a gun shooting at you, thats fine. killing the group of people searching for food because they "might" have a bomb on them. not so much.

but lets continue on with the "might" logic for a second. that person "might" have a bomb straped to them, so lets kill them. that group "might" be apart of a terrorist organization. lets kill them aswell. these other civilians "might" get in the way and cause problems. lets wipe them out as well. any person in iraq "might" be hostile. lets just nuke iraq. russia "might" launch back nukes, because they detected our launch... so lets nuke them as well. iran "might" retaliate so lets nuke them. oh you "might" be a spy. lets execute you and your family. ok now whats left... oh the world was blown up 5 minutes ago due to us not caring anymore. whooops :P

do you see how we cant just go off of "might"? i mean why even send out our soldiers if all we are going to do is slaughter them all? shouldnt we instead nuke them and begin world war 3, with america as the prime bad guy? doesnt seem too smart.

you seem to think that america is invincable or cannot be invaded. that is untrue. its just dificult to do so. those other countries such as mexico, wouldnt be able to do much if russia decided to use their land to invade us. neither could canada for that matter. we would step in, but it doesnt mean we would win.

"DUH everything is caused by actions, that is like saying "teen pregnancy, oh May gosh we just shouldn't have sex anymore" or "we shouldn't have sex ed anymore." How the heck did you get from not having extreme measures to dictatorship??? For those who protest the war, they aren't enemy, why would we kill them? for the soldiers, if our lives are at stake yea we should apprehend them at least."

i have no idea what you are refering to in the above paragaph for the most part.

extreme measures are what dictatorships do. they dont care what happens, the only reason they get away with it is because if anyone in their country disagrees, they are killed. america cannot do such actions. the citizens of the us will not stand for something like that to occur. nore would most in the government or the rest of the world for that matter.
the only way for america to go to more extreme measures is to become a dictatorship. and kill anyone whom opposes them.

for the soldiers, if our lives are at stake yea we should apprehend them at least."

but you stated several times that they should just be killed. you are contradicting yourself agian. apprehending potenially dangerous people is what we do now. that is not an extreme measure.

No, you miss said what I agreed with.

If you are a civilian in a war zone, there is a chance you can be killed, so go away and become a refugee. if this action is encouraged than there is no wrong in death for everyone was warned.

ok than, how about this, with you being a white guy from new Mexico, if you found yourself with 10 black guys with puffy jackets, and you have a gun and you know they are going to attack you, you are most likely to kill them all even if 3 are innocent.

"basically what you state in the second paragraph is that actions of others should be held accountable for all. with that in mind, one of you friends friends firends friends friend, attacked me. I'm gonna attack you for it. does this seem fair to you? yes civilians should not be held accountable for the actions of their government. BUT only to a certain degree."
If my friends friends friends friends friend attacked me and was from America, I believe it would be fair, and chances are I'm bigger than you any way and can take you down, and I am collector of tactual armor. GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT? I'm not the government, they are a bunch of democrats, who I don't like any way. where is that I'm saying don't go and rebel your government? All I am saying is don't disrespect your country, and if you want bush and the rest of America to go to hell, than I say leave.

America is not founded on everyone is equal, that is communism, America is founded on everyone can strive.

you're wrong, for a soldier to defend someone hast to attack.

The kinder gardner does to fit here, you might hurt the guys feelings, scaring him for life.

With your rant on "might" this is where mentalists come in handy, if you get guys who are observant you can see if the guy has a bomb or a gun or weapons of war.

it is true it America can be invaded, but I was talking about in our locations, here in the bay area, only a slow sea invasion in possible, for they have to get through a many military establishments to get here from Mexico or Canada. In new Mexico, they would have to fight through the chicklet sellers, Mexican police and the drug cartels.

"'DUH everything is caused by actions, that is like saying "teen pregnancy, oh May gosh we just shouldn't have sex anymore" or "we shouldn't have sex ed anymore." How the heck did you get from not having extreme measures to dictatorship??? For those who protest the war, they aren't enemy, why would we kill them? for the soldiers, if our lives are at stake yea we should apprehend them at least.'

I have no idea what you are referring to in the above paragraph for the most part."
I was talking about "also yes I'm referring to shell shock, it can be treated, but the fact that the actions caused this, show that they should not be done. you will have a great deal of soldiers whom speak up about it should they be ordered to do what ever. what will you do then if you soldiers turn against you? kill them too? what about American civilians, whom will protest the war, far more then any before? why not switch over to a dictatorship?"

"extreme measures are what dictatorships do. they don't care what happens, the only reason they get away with it is because if anyone in their country disagrees, they are killed. America cannot do such actions. the citizens of the us will not stand for something like that to occur. nor would most in the government or the rest of the world for that matter.
the only way for America to go to more extreme measures is to become a dictatorship. and kill anyone whom opposes them." You got Obama so we are on the way there.

"'for the soldiers, if our lives are at stake yea we should apprehend them at least.'

but you stated several times that they should just be killed. you are contradicting yourself again. apprehending potentially dangerous people is what we do now. that is not an extreme measure."
I said "for the soldiers, if they stake yea we should apprehend them AT LEAST" note at least, so that means at most kill them.

Make people that aren't in military to become a refugee in war zones.

woot round 5!!

so you think its fair to be blamed on the actions of another. If we our species keeps to that ideal, we wont last much longer. That's the way it was in the past. Humans saw this. They realized they did not like what they see. That is why things are changing and becoming less and less like that.

blaming people for something they have not done is wrong. By that logic, I blame you for 9/11. Is that fair? Did you have anything to do with 9/11? I highly doubt it.

the ONLY reason the entire population should be held accountable is if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they ALL took part in the action. Which is NEVER the case. There has not been one case on the planet of the entirety of a population going along with the government for what ever reason. At this point I bet your thinking of the Nazi's again. This is wrong. Did you know that there was an assassination attempt on Hitler several times, by his own officers? If I remember correctly he ended up losing an arm to one of the attempts. Not everyone agrees with that they are being told. Why did so many Germans go along with it? Because if they didn't, their family and themselves would have been killed or worse.

your opinion is this "If you are a civilian in a war zone, there is a chance you can be killed, so go away and become a refugee. If this action is encouraged than there is no wrong in death for everyone was warned." so basically we come to their country to liberate them, but they need to leave otherwise we will just kill them all.... Some liberation.... Make not mistake if that's the stance America took "get out or die" our allies would have already stepped in. We would be painted as the bad guy. What little support and influence we do have left in the world will be gone. Our own citizens would be outraged by this. Our soldiers would be outraged by this (granted not all, but a fair portion would be).

there are guys planning to attack me, yes I would kill them, however those innocent guys, I would not. Why? Because if they are innocent that means that they obviously didn't attack me. It means that they either stayed out of it and watched, or they ran off. Either way, there is no reason for me to harm them. Sure they may attack me, but again, acting off of "what if" scenarios is only going to cause more problems. It really solves problems.

those ideals that you are showing is the same ideals that the Muslims have, whom you are against. They lump everyone into two categories (to be clear I mean the extremists. Not all Muslims). Either you have their beliefs or you don't. And if you don't you should die.

how does it benefit our country to become like that? You wont even save the soldiers lives in the long run. What you will do however, is cause the destruction of the usa. You will give the enemies more cause to fight us. You will confirm to every country that hates us that we are as "evil" as they believe we are. You will give them a cause to unite against US. That will lead to a larger scale war which will end up killing FAR more soldiers. And in that war, we could not count on the support of our allies because we basically chased them off with our "extreme measures". It would be turning against the very image America has created itself, which is the peace keepers of the world. America would no longer be a role module for how people should be, which is to say helping others, allowing others to do as they wish. We will instead become the role for how NOT to act. In short, it is the last thing America should do.

again, your kinder gardener does not fit here. Its not the enemy we should be worried about scaring. Its the soldiers themselves. Your whole example does not fit here. This has to do with dealing with innocent populations, not being nice to the guy trying to kill you. I agree kill the guy shooting at you, he IS NOT innocent. But not the innocent child who is only looking for some food.

you cannot always tell one 100% whether or not its a gun or bomb, nor can you ever truly tell their intention. People might have weapons aimed at you, that's true, but that doesn't mean they plan to use it. They may just want to be ready incase you start shooting.

by the same token, Russia may launch their nukes. We know they have them. We have seen them. So why not just nuke them because they "may" nuke us? You about doing it before they do it to you, so why not?

you stated "AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GOVERNMENT OR THE WAY IT WORKS GO TO CANADA!!" that is saying not to question the government. That statement means, either go along with it or get out. Seems like dictator mentality.

you also respond to my statement that in order for America to take these more extreme measures by stating "you have obama so we are on the way there.". What leads you to believe that obama is going to transform the US into a dictatorship? do you think he would even accomplish that?

but you stated several times that they should just be killed. You are contradicting yourself again. Apprehending potentially dangerous people is what we do now. That is not an extreme measure."
I said "for the soldiers, if they stake yea we should apprehend them AT LEAST" note at least, so that means at most kill them.

but you have been arguing this entire time that apprehending them is not enough. That you need to take it further then that. Otherwise you are agreeing with me here.

you really think that drug cartels and Mexican police are going to even slow down the Russian military???? That's like flies trying to slow down a tank. They wont even be that annoying. The Russians would more then likely have a deal with them to where they stay out of the way and they don't get hurt. And you think that they would get involved anyways? Who's to say that the Mexican government wouldn't help them, especially after what they had seen us do with our "extreme measures"?

and if Russia goes to war with us, who else do you think would come? Its not like Russia would be the only one. They would be the biggest probably, but not the only one. We lose our allies and we become sitting ducks.

You say that if we keep this up, we won't last long. If you haven't noticed, in you past umpteen years, all good things come to an end, look at Rome, Scotland, the life of the Indians before we came, Constantinople. They all rocked, but they ended, and face it, America's climax is over, if we go out lets go out with extreme actions.

You blaming me for 9/11 does not follow my logic, I am a white guy from California, I am not from Iraq or Iran. And Mr bush didn't pan that so I am innocent in this case.

You are aren't understand my reference to the Nazi's, Not the entire population of them killed the Jews, does this mean that the ones who didn't should be let free, or not killed? Does this mean everyone else wrongfully killed them?

The get out or die idea does work here, if we are big enough (which we are) everyone will be afraid. And if they don't believe us, arm the long range. Anyone who doesn't leave has been warned, so blow them up. Your outrages soldiers, they signed u to follow the orders of their commanders, and the commanders from the commanders from the commander in chief.

Again with the guys attacking you, you are misunderstanding the situation, I say if the 10 guys are pointing guns at you, but two are air soft guns with the orange tip painted over, you are likely to kill them all, but your halt of extreme action will cause more men and women to die because they are trying to figure out who is innocent in the situation.

I do not recall arguing the Muslim point in the past two rounds so I don't know that you are talking about. We didn't come out guns blazing so many years ago, they did, this gave them a reputation, a reputation that remains in many minds today.

Again I mention that the climax of America is over, and I say we go out hated and guns blazing. I say we are declining not only because of the war, the extreme measures won't even effect us because we are so rapped up with stuff and entertainment and material things. Truth be told we are drifting away from God, and thus we are declining. I'm thinking of moving south of the border somewhere.

Load of cr@p. if someone points a gun at you, they have it there to be ready to shoot you, or actions that lead to him shooting you. If one raises a gun that is conspiracy of murder, to which self defence can be used.

Yes we apprehend dangerous people, if a guy murders someone, the victim dies, and the murder gets to live, where they have food, and a bed, and tv, and exercise, that is why I believe in the death penantily. The justice system of the old west is the best. A murder? Show him the bug oak tree, and ready the horse and rope. I like that, it is a extreme measure. But you have agree with me too so lets call it even on this one.

if Russia comes out of Mexico they will at least have chick lets and be high on meth. If you haven't walked down a Mexican street, they all try to talk to you I cold imagine hearing "hey conscript, let me be the first to rip you off today!"

Yea we become siting ducks, but we become siting ducks with guns.

But right now we are in a war, and we are dieing in this war, so lets get out faster, and if they are shooting at us, lets shoot at them. If we want to get out faster (faster but not leaving a unstable Iraq) eliminate the problem, go house to house, if they have guns and aim them at you, kill them. We can have our moms dads, brothers sister, sons and daughters back faster, remember that.

I have indeed enjoyed debating you Mr D, and I hope you keep debating.

God speed to all
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