The Instigator
mobshark
Pro (for)
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The Contender
SocialistAtheistNutjob
Con (against)
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American Feminism is Going too Far

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/19/2015 Category: People
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 666 times Debate No: 77868
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

mobshark

Pro

American feminism is a force to be reckoned with nowadays. I myself am a woman and believe all people should be treated fairly regardless the gender, size, shape, color, ethnicity, etc. However, overly extremist feminists are taking their freedom for granted thus making the rest of us women have an angry spoiled appearance compared to the many of oppressed, voiceless women in counties such as Iran or Palestine. Many women nowadays are asking for way too much, like higher wages for lesser jobs, and "freeing the nipple" because they think it isn't fair that men get too. Frankly put, women and men are not the exact same people, otherwise there would be no genders. It's much too late in the game for women to push their limits on dress codes and over expectation. I say, things are good the way they are now at least in the states. Places that should be helped are those such that have women suffering to stay alive. Not knowing that the next day they could be killed because a few strands of hair was showing. Bottom line, I'm fortunate as are so many fellow women in this country. We have the ability to do everything a man does and that for a lot of people is enough.
SocialistAtheistNutjob

Con

Every single example provided by Pro fails to merit the use of the word "extreme", or is downright incorrect. I'd like evidence that shows that women are "asking for higher wages for lesser jobs". Also, I fail to see what is extreme about "freeing the nipple".

"I say, things are good the way they are now at least in the states."

Current cultural norms are not necessarily better, so I would like to use this opportunity to call out Pro on her use of the is-ought fallacy.

"Places that should be helped are those such that have women suffering to stay alive."

Just because somebody else has it worse, does not mean that one should not strive to help their current situation. Why should those women struggle to stay alive when there are women that die without having the option to struggle? It's not selfish to want things to be better for yourself when others have it worse. Should I never be happy because somebody else has it better?

"Women and men are not the exact same people, otherwise there would be no genders."

I'd like to refer Pro to the US Supreme Court Brown v. Board of Education where the idea of "separate but equal" from the case Plessy v. Ferguson was overturned.


"We have the ability to do everything a man does and that for a lot of people is enough."

Just because women have the "ability" to do everything that a man can do does not mean that there isn't cultural and institutional sexism that prevents women from doing certain things. Roughly 19% of engineering students are female [1]. This is due to the fact that in science fields men are seen more desirably even when they have the same credentials as women [2]. Modern American feminism fights to end cultural and institutional oppression.





[1] https://www.asme.org...
[2] http://www.nytimes.com...
Debate Round No. 1
mobshark

Pro

I see what my contender is trying to do, that being revealing himself as one of the few males that considers himself a feminist by his standards to appeal to women by fighting for an equality that already exists. By all means, power to you. However, at the end of the day, you are a boy, with boyish features and a male anatomy who does not think like a woman as feminine as you might be. Have you ever heard the song lyric, "don't save her, she don't wanna be saved", by J. Cole? If you think about it, women have always been second class because they have put themselves in that position, as unfortunate as that is. It is up to individuals to change that, not a whole army of angry women born into a society their ancestors created for them. Pick up a history book and look at how women are merely baby makers and personal chefs and maids to their husbands. Any one of Henry VIII's wives could have stabbed him in his sleep but they didn't. They didn't fight for freedom. They did not fight for education and work until much later. Many women, not all, have put themselves in the second class position. Anyone can be a head of a multi-million dollar enterprise or get the job they want or salary they want, if they want it enough. For example, my aunt went to an ivy league university [Columbia], at 15, before becoming SVP of a branch of one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies on the globe [Merck]. That being said, frankly, not just anyone can be anything or get anything they want if they are not up to the standards for it, or else the world would be utter chaos. No company owner is stupid enough to drive away a huge influential force in his business just because she's a woman. Another thing, of course they get paid less, everyone starts out with a little, and it grows too. The rate of growth for women is significantly less than the vast majority of men due to very simple reasons. Studies have shown men take riskier approaches when it comes to building their careers. They also ask for raises in a more suitable way and more often. Women are caught up in other ideals, respectively. Me and many other women have agreed we take on other responsibilities besides work which means we are not at the workplace as much as men, meaning we get paid less. It's not fair to be paid the same if we aren't doing as much work. You can agree with that. At the end of the day, equality is important. However, fighting for equality and peace between the genders is like having sex for virginity. I never said women can't be feminists. I just said it can get out of hand by asking for too much too late. It's hard to quickly change society's view points after thousands of years of the established, "women are the second class".

http://ideas.time.com...
http://www.npr.org...
http://www.phillymag.com...
SocialistAtheistNutjob

Con

There are actually plenty of males that consider themselvs feminist. Feminism is, by definition, "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities" [3]. It's not exclusive to women in any way. I believe that everybody should be equal.

"Any one of Henry VIII's wives could have stabbed him in his sleep but they didn't. They didn't fight for freedom."

I love that example of Henry VIII because it is so completely ignorant of the fact that one cannot simply kill a king. Yes technically his wives could have murdered him in his sleep, but they would have been executed for it. Even if they escaped, where would they go? Everything they ever knew was in that city, and the open road was extremely dangerous for women who traveled alone. Plus even if they made it to another city what would they do? Guards would surely go searching for them. Women have been subjugated and oppressed for millennia. Was it women that banned the education of women? No, of course it wasn't. It wasn't women that chose not give themselves the right to vote. The idea that women put themselves into this position is inane. One should not have to earn equal rights. They should be given to them no matter what.

"No company owner is stupid enough to drive away a huge influential force in his business just because she's a woman."

I'm not just talking about being fired or not being given an opportunity because somebody is a woman. I'm also referring to sexual harassment. 64% of women scientists claim to have been either sexually harassed or assaulted while in the field [5]. They should have to deal with that, and that is why feminism in the US is still necessary.


---

If equal pay for equal work is the only legitimate gripe Pro has about American Feminism, then I don't believe that she has met the burden of proof that it has gone "too far". Feminism isn't just about fair pay. It's also about abortion, contraceptive use, ending discrimination in academia, ending sexual harassment and sexual assault. These are all noble causes.


[3] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[4] http://www.businessinsider.com...
[5] http://www.washingtonpost.com...
Debate Round No. 2
mobshark

Pro

"I love that example of Henry VIII because it is so completely ignorant of the fact that one cannot simply kill a king. Yes technically his wives could have murdered him in his sleep, but they would have been executed for it."

I hope you know they would have been executed regardless. Catherine Howard and Anne Boleyn were beheaded. Out of all six wives only Catherine Parr made it out alive. Your argument is invalid as everyone, not just women, should and must fight for what they want. Every culture, individual, etc, has and will continue to do so as unfortunate as that is, that's life and if you can't take a good beating in this society that's on you to fight back and get what you believe you deserve. Things are not simply "given". Good morals is not a language everyone speaks, unfortunately.

As far as your cute sexual harassment summary, carry some pepper spray, a taser, and a mobile phone. If they didn't want to be "harassed" they should have stopped it right away, not lead it on. This would be a lovely time to bring up Bill Cosby and his sexual encounters. Did these grad students really think a seventy year old man inviting them to a hotel room was going to give them a jigsaw puzzle? It's extremely easy to turn a man down, if that's what you want.

Abortion, contraceptive use, discrimination in academia, and sexual harassment are issues on their own. I too am one hundred percent on-board with these rights given to everyone, however, this is not feminism going too far. Feminism going too far is when groups of women ask for too much, too soon, and all at once, when in the not-so-distant past they didn't try very hard for their rights, which is horrible, because it effects all of us women, myself included. Abortion is legal in a number of states and if a woman did not want to conceive she should have abstained or used contraceptives. Discrimination in academia is illegal, you can't get turned down or fall behind men because you are a woman, it just doesn't work that way. If a woman does not like how the education system is run, file a report, and give those in question a reason not to turn you away from anything.

The reason I say feminism is going too far also, is that I know as individuals us women can get what we want if we work for it. If we keep asking for everything, that automatically makes us the weaker class, the second class. Being an angry feminist using only your words for equality is going to get you nowhere fast. Making children cuss in commercials for equality (https://youtu.be...) is absurd. Women asking for society to change their view points on topics they have already established is ridiculous. If you want a change, do that change for yourself. There's no reason why someone can't. To me, I think it's unfortunate how much attention these kinds of women get when the real attention should be going to somewhere much more beneficial. Women want a double standard that ceases to exist. They want to be treated like "ladies" but undermine the male race. If you want to be completely independent, by all means go ahead. However, you can't ask to be treated like men but also be treated like women if you want to erase the line between genders.

http://time.com...
SocialistAtheistNutjob

Con

I don't understand why there is so much victim blaming going on.

"I hope you know they would have been executed regardless."

First of all, King Henry only executed his wives because they kept birthing daughters. They knew that if they could give birth to a son they would get to live. Secondly, what gives you so much moral authority to judge them? During the 9/11 attacks, people knew that no matter what they did they would die, but most were so overcome by fear that they couldn't fight back. Is it their fault that the planes crashed? No, of course not. It's NEVER the victims fault.

"As far as your cute sexual harassment summary, carry some pepper spray, a taser, and a mobile phone."

That's a ridiculous statement. Why on earth would somebody's response to sexual harassment be to whip out a taser and shoot somebody? They would almost certainly be fired.

"Did these grad students really think a seventy year old man inviting them to a hotel room was going to give them a jigsaw puzzle?"

Many of these cases date back all the way to the 60's. Cosby was not nearly that old then. Secondly, many times they were tricked into visiting him with excuses such as career advice. thirdly, in many of the cases they were having various drinks, sometimes coffee, and then he drugged and raped them [6]. They had no idea that he had ill intentions. Again, it is NEVER the victims fault.

"Abortion is legal in a number of states and if a woman did not want to conceive she should have abstained or used contraceptives."

What is she was raped? What if she did use contraceptives and they failed?

"Discrimination in academia is illegal, you can't get turned down or fall behind men because you are a woman, it just doesn't work that way"

Did I not explain the subconscious bias against women? It's not always active discrimination. It's hard to prove intent on subconscious discrimination because there is none.

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I can't figure out where Pro believes that feminism has gone too far. Pro agreed that many aspects of feminism have not gone "too far", and cannot provide any concrete examples of places where feminism has in fact done so. She has simply made obscure statements saying that women should just work harder even when I have shown that women face obstacles that men don't have to. Women should have equal rights to men, and fighting for those rights should not be given a deadline. Feminists should not be criticized for asking "society to change their view points on topics they have already established." Slavery used to be an established idea, and yet here we are, society intact. Giving one party rights that another party has always has does not take right away from those that already have it. Finally, I don't believe that Pro fully understood my point that the laws in general support equality, but our culure doesn't. One of the major things that feminists are trying to accomplish is the change the culture to become more accepting of women.



[6] http://www.slate.com...
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by WAM 1 year ago
WAM
Wow nobody wants this debate...
Posted by Bahamute619 1 year ago
Bahamute619
Berend isn't "Devil's Lawyer" redundant? : P
Posted by Berend 1 year ago
Berend
I'm pro, but if you need a debate, I could play Devils Lawyer.
Posted by Berend 1 year ago
Berend
Should have just said Tumbler feminism.
Posted by HaileyL 1 year ago
HaileyL
I agree that women in countries such as Iran enjoy less freedom, but women in western suffer as well. If you have gunshot victim and someone with a broken leg; the gunshot takes priority, but you treat the person with a broken leg too. This same logic applies to western feminism. Women in greater suffering should take priority, but that doesn't mean we ignore the struggles of American women.

p.s. Palestine isn't a country
Posted by ThePresD 1 year ago
ThePresD
If only I could also argue as pro, because I agree with your opinion on this literally word for word. However, that being said, generalizing an entire group of "American Feminism", probably isn't a good idea. There's always a couple out there who do have genuinely good ideas. However, I'd agree in saying for the most part, it's purpose have been completed, and now it just protests useless stuff. Typically it will do social actions like "Free the Nipple" to remain relevant in today's edgy society and to get attention.
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