The Instigator
afeinberg
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Pluto2493
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

Americans throw around the term 'communist' and 'socialist' way too much. There can't be THAT many.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,052 times Debate No: 1256
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (6)

 

afeinberg

Pro

Taken from: http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Main Entry:
com�mu�nism
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French communisme, from commun common
Date:
1840

1 a: theory advocating elimination of private property b: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed

Even the Russians weren't communists. They had and continue to have rubles as currency. When someone on the Internet uses that word, they mean to say 'Stalinist' which is more Soviet and dictator-centric. How many people do you see who really advocate sharing all property?

Main Entry:
so�cial�ism
Function:
noun
Date:
1837

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Where in the US does government own corporations? It can be argued that many corporations own our government. No one in American politics adheres to these definitions.
Pluto2493

Con

I agree with your definitions.

I present my offense-
1. First, you must prove to me that people say 'Communist' and 'Socialist' way too much. If you don't do this, you cannot prove your own question.

2. Many people know what they're talking about and do not use this when it applies to a country that is obviously not communist. I'm sure some Americans use the word communist too much, but that does not represent the general public.

3. Define which countries most people commonly say are communist. I know you said Russia, and please notify me if this is the only one. This will allow me to attack specific arguments and not just broad questions such as this topic.

4. While I disagree with the way some people use 'Communist', or 'Commy', there is reason for it. Nearly every communist state has failed, and many exploited human rights.

Answers-
1. "Even the Russians weren't communists. They had and continue to have rubles as currency. When someone on the Internet uses that word, they mean to say 'Stalinist' which is more Soviet and dictator-centric. How many people do you see who really advocate sharing all property?"

The Soviet Union was Communist. Joseph Stalin was the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. 'Stalinism' is the term used to describe his regime. The term was first used by Lazar Kaganovich and was never used by Joseph Stalin. Stalin's idea of Collectivization is most definitley commuist, because it made peasants sell their farms to the government.

2. "Where in the US does government own corporations? It can be argued that many corporations own our government. No one in American politics adheres to these definitions."

Who is saying America is communist? America is most certainly a democratic, capatalist state. I guess I agree with you that America does not own corporations. I need some clarification on this argument.
Debate Round No. 1
afeinberg

Pro

http://thinkprogress.org... <<
<<
<<
http://www.renewamerica.us... <<
http://mediamatters.org... <<
http://www.usatoday.com... reads that an estimated 72 million Americans are registered Democrats. They are not socialists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com... displays the views of all 2008 presidential candidates. http://socialistparty-usa.org... and http://www.cpusa.org... depict the values of the Socialist and Communist Parties of the United States. Hillary Clinton's views (link above) differ drastically from both parties on every single issue.

...as do the views of Arianna Huffington, Molly Ivans, Bill Maher, and Larry David.

If 72 million Americans were socialists, it would be unlikely for them to keep silent for much longer. To put it in perspective, that's almost a quarter of all US citizens.

Socialism is 'not' defined by 'any' distribution of wealth. If it was, all nations outside of the Vatican would be socialists or communists. Socialism is a word, although respected and practiced in much of the world, is used as a scare tactic in the US, nothing more, nothing less.
Pluto2493

Con

Those sources are great and all, but that still links to my second argument. Most people in America know what they are talking about. Just because one person says Democrats are socialist, that does not mean it is popular belief. What I was looking for is something like a poll that shows how many people use the word communist, but I'm not going to start feeding you ideas. I know that most intelligent people only use Socialist and Communist are within context. You said yourself Hilary Clinton's views are not what these people think. Obviously you're intelligent and know that democrats are not communists.

Extend on all my points that were dropped:
1. The reason behind people using the term is just; Socialism violates human rights.
2. The fact that the Soviet Union is Socialist and not Stalinist based on the fact that 'Stalinism' didn't exist until after Stalin was out of power and of the idea of Collectivization.
3. The idea of communism in the United States does not exist.
Debate Round No. 2
afeinberg

Pro

afeinberg forfeited this round.
Pluto2493

Con

It is sad that he had to forfeit this round. No matter what your opinion is, vote con if your tired of people quitting debates. Use also all of my points in the debate, which he realized I was right about.

1. The reason behind people using the term is just; Socialism violates human rights.
2. The fact that the Soviet Union is Socialist and not Stalinist based on the fact that 'Stalinism' didn't exist until after Stalin was out of power and of the idea of Collectivization.
3. The idea of communism in the United States does not exist.
4. Most people know what they're talking about.
5. His arguments aren't 'Popular belief'
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by ReaganConservative 9 years ago
ReaganConservative
Democrats opposed standing up to the Soviets. Democrats have supported, enabled, defended, and empowered Marxists at home and abroad. Ted Kennedy sent John Tunney to the USSR to propose a strategy on behalf of Kennedy to defeat Reagan. Kennedy offered to help the Soviets, military and civilian leadership to conduct a campaign in the U.S. to help defeat Reagan. Democrats have been pushing America toward world government. The goal of communism is to establish one-rule communist state. Wilson tried to push America into an International League of Nations, which layed the foundation for the U.N. FDR erected socialst welfare state, New Deal, while aligning with Stalin, calling him "Uncle Joe." One of FDR'S closest advisers, Alger Hiss, was a proven communist spy. FDR'S vice president, Henry Wallace, ran against Truman on the progressive party ticket, which was supported by the Soviet Union. Truman had dozens of Soviet spies in his administration. Joe McCarthy found 57 documented communists, according to the Venona Report released in 1995. The socialist welfare state was revived by Kennedy and Johnson. They tried to build the "Great Society" which resulted in 50 million dead babies, epidemic rates of suicide, depression, drug addiction, child molestation, suicidal children, and a progressive education system that produced massive amounts of illiteracy and ignorance, and a 50% divorce rate. Democrats support same-sex marriage which is a radical social experiment. Hillary Clinton wants to take a little from all of you and distribute it for the "common good" which is straight out of the Communist Manifesto. Re-distribution of wealth and equalizing the income classes...communism. I'd love to go into more detail, but I'll leave it at that.
Posted by Pluto2493 9 years ago
Pluto2493
oh, that is what I was trying to say. I may have used the wrong choice of words. He said, "Socialist and Communist" so that argument still applies since it is true that the SU is socialist, TRYING to be communist.
Posted by Drones200 9 years ago
Drones200
But you claimed the soviet union was communist, they made have tried to achieve that goal but they were not communist, they were socialist.
During stalin it was a real resemblance to fascism and some socialist policies.
Secret police and countless disregards for the workers of the state for the sake of the government. Thats fascism allright, sacrificing everything you have for the state and government, followed with fears and heavy patriotism with propaganda as total control of the state bia a single man.

Most peopel commonly define Cuba, North Korea and China as communist.
Why? Its what we are taught to believe and after heavy cold war propaganda is hard to change our minds.
China is definately not communist, North Korea is a total dictatorship and Cuba has socialist policies like free healthcare with an authoritarian ruler bia a constitution.
Posted by Pluto2493 9 years ago
Pluto2493
Not true Drones. The IDEA of communism was never put into action, all have failed miserably. You said that true Communism has never existed, but there are many countries that have tried but failed, and that is my point that people have a reason for it. Also that was only one argument, I don't see how that could wreck my debate.
Posted by Drones200 9 years ago
Drones200
PLuto you lost the debate when you said the Soviet Union was communist.

Even anarchist know that true Communism has never existed in our world, the closest thing to it was the tribal system the native americans of our country enjoyed.

You should know just because you call a cat a dog it doesn't make the cat any different other then a name change.

Therefore just because you call your party a communist party doesn't mean there communist. They can be dictators, Fascist or democrats.
Dont be naive.
You can also argue Stalinism had many ties to Fascism.

Also that thing about seizing private property from the farmers dint make them automatically communist. That was just a phase that we call socialism.
You know....the phases a country must pass before it is transformed into communist. Is in the manifesto.

The big arguement is wether in communisn there is a state or not. Basially no.
But people argue if the worker should take charge of distribution or not, through councils.

There.

Sorry i just could not resist. I really enjoy discussing political ideologies.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by U.n 1 year ago
U.n
afeinbergPluto2493Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.
Vote Placed by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
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Vote Placed by tarsjake 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by solo 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Pluto2493 9 years ago
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