The Instigator
Polyp
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
whatledge
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

An "Old-fashioned" Community.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/27/2010 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 896 times Debate No: 12166
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (1)

 

Polyp

Pro

This is not a call to a commune, this is not a religious movement, and this is not a joke.

Is it crazy to want to live better, live freely, live as I choose?
Settlers had it right, taking advantage of "The Homestead Act", westward expansion, self-sufficient living, farming and animals, small close-knit towns and communities, hunting and gathering, etcetera. So why don't we live like that anymore?

3,794,101 sq miles of land, in the US - just how much of that is actually taken up by all the cities and industrialization? I'd venture to say less than half. So what about the other half, why doesn't the government condone the "outdoorsy" types to buy a tract of land and live off it? What is so wrong with a family farm these days - or rather, Why do they repeatedly support the big companies over the "little guys"? Why is getting a "foot in the door" intentionally made so difficult?

Will we let this stop us?

Have you ever felt like there just wasn't a job out there you could see yourself working in happily for the rest of your life? I have. Why have we traded a "simpler time" for this modern materialism - because I sincerely feel we‘ve been duped. Was it even us who made the corrupt bargain, or was it the generations before us - in the pursuit of progress - whose repercussions we are now saddled with? Why does everyone put up with the expectation of working a 9-5 with a car, a green lawn, and the stifling of our very human nature to /be/ in nature -- finding escape and outlet in Role-playing, day-dreaming, video-gaming, movies, talk, idealism, or rash actions (ever heard of Christopher McCandless?) -- well, hasn‘t anyone ever Done something SMART about it?!

But the meaning of this is not a "call to arms" or recruitment to some commune or idealistic "utopia". This is about a lifestyle, a mindset that you already have and a public announcement that - yes, there are people out there who think the same way you do and who want to DO something about it!

Who among us would be willing to give up their comfort for the unknown? Is it too much to ask of like-minded individuals to discuss this matter in some measure of seriousness? Reply with opinions, constructive or otherwise, as to why this cant (or wont) be done!
whatledge

Con

Thank you for opening up this debate. I look foward to having an insightful debate.

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Is it crazy to want to live better, live freely, live as I choose?
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It is not crazy to want to live life as you please. My question is, "who is stopping you?"

Settlers had it right, taking advantage of "The Homestead Act", westward expansion, self-sufficient living, farming and animals, small close-knit towns and communities, hunting and gathering, etcetera. So why don't we live like that anymore?
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The reason is perhaps, not all people want to live the life you have described. Myself, included. I enjoy being able to go to a restaurant and being served crab and lobster without having to "hunt and gather".

3,794,101 sq miles of land, in the US - just how much of that is actually taken up by all the cities and industrialization? I'd venture to say less than half. So what about the other half, why doesn't the government condone the "outdoorsy" types to buy a tract of land and live off it? What is so wrong with a family farm these days - or rather, Why do they repeatedly support the big companies over the "little guys"? Why is getting a "foot in the door" intentionally made so difficult?
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I don't really understand what this means. I wasn't aware there were rules that forbade you from buying land and farming. As for supporting the big companies, please give sources and examples to clarify.

Will we let this stop us?
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I do not agree that 'we' should start farming when I have no passion or desire to.

Have you ever felt like there just wasn't a job out there you could see yourself working in happily for the rest of your life?
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But we all have the choice to choose our careers, I am not going to be randomly assigned to a job I do not want.

Why have we traded a "simpler time" for this modern materialism - because I sincerely feel we‘ve been duped.
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Some people enjoy "modern materialism". I do not feel we ahve been duped of anything.

Was it even us who made the corrupt bargain, or was it the generations before us - in the pursuit of progress - whose repercussions we are now saddled with?
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repercussions? I thank Edison for creating the light buld so I don't risk setting my house on fire with candles. I applaud the wright brothers for creating the plane so traveling was able to become infinitely faster. I thank microsoft for making PC because I can't afford a mac. My point is the generations before us may have screwed us over for deciding to do something stupid like declaring wars, but I am genuinely pleased that I do not have to work in a farm all my life just to eat. I would prefer to follow my own ambitions.

Why does everyone put up with the expectation of working a 9-5 with a car, a green lawn, and the stifling of our very human nature to /be/ in nature --
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Because perhaps people enjoy working 9-5 with cars and green lawns. I certainly find it more appealing than working 5am-7pm on the farm with a hoe, and acres of land to be plowed, seeded, and harvested.

finding escape and outlet in Role-playing, day-dreaming, video-gaming, movies, talk, idealism, or rash actions (ever heard of Christopher McCandless?) -- well, hasn‘t anyone ever Done something SMART about it?!
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I will Role-play slaying monsters and blowing up terrorist's heads because it is not likely I would be able to do so in real life. I see no problem. Day dreaming, if I had to farm I would day-dream every second I would have to seed, plow, and harvest the field. Video-gaming, this relates to my role-play argument. Movies, talk, idealism, or rash actions and so forth, I do not see why we need to escape these things.

But the meaning of this is not a "call to arms" or recruitment to some commune or idealistic "utopia". This is about a lifestyle, a mindset that you already have and a public announcement that - yes, there are people out there who think the same way you do and who want to DO something about it!
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Hippies, native americans, the amish? No one is stopping anyone from joining them (except maybe the native americans).
"This is about a lifestyle, a mindset that you already have and a public announcement that"
And it seems my opponent, for some reason, thinks he knows what mindset and lifestyle I prefer. I do not want to live as a 'hunter gatherer' or famer.

Who among us would be willing to give up their comfort for the unknown? Is it too much to ask of like-minded individuals to discuss this matter in some measure of seriousness? Reply with opinions, constructive or otherwise, as to why this cant (or wont) be done!
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"Who among us would be willing to give up their comfort for the unknown?"
What does this have to do with anything?
I wasn't aware that anyone or anything was stopping you from "Is it too much to ask of like-minded individuals to discuss this matter in some measure of seriousness?"

Reply with opinions, constructive or otherwise, as to why this cant (or wont) be done!
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This can be done, but I will tell you why this is unlikely to be done by the vast majority. I might be wrong, but I got the impression that my oponent is proposing that we should abandon our achievements in science and technology, so that we can live life simply by farming, hunting, and gathering. If this is how people really wanted to live, if it were in our nature to do so, we would have never evolved from our stage of farming, hunting, and gathering. I am not saying that this is impossible, but this is impractical. People seek to live convenient and comfortable lives with the freedom to follow their passion and ambitions. By suggesting that we forget all our technological achievements, and live simple lives, you immediately destroy the ambitions and passions, and limit careers to farming, hunting, gathering, and so on. Not all people find what you propose as endearing or desirable. An "Old-fashioned" community is possible, but I do not see why people should CHOOSE an old-fashioned community over the modern community. The modern-materials exist for our comfort, I find it foolish to deny technology to live a "Simpler" life.
Debate Round No. 1
Polyp

Pro

"who is stopping you?" from living life as you please:
The government has put all kinds of rules and regulations (spend a moment researching housing regulations and classifications)that people who want a "simpler" life have to sidestep and research carefully in order to work around. They are not stopping me, as they have not stopped those before me. What stops is just the logistics of /forming/ said "old fashioned community".. doing it alone is impossible, because we just don't know all the necessary skills, but thankfully we are communal by nature, and can use our great gift of language to share knowledge advice and experience.

"I enjoy being able to go to a restaurant and being served crab and lobster without having to "hunt and gather"."
Fair enough, I do not expect it to be for everyone, it's just frustrating how many people say they "dream" about it, but never take the time to research and collaborate and realize it /can/ be done - it's not some fantasy, people still live like this. Not all people, and that's necessary, because if everyone lived on farms and homesteads and communes etc there'd be no innovation or medicine or etc etc that is equally important.

"I don't really understand what this means. I wasn't aware there were rules that forbade you from buying land and farming. As for supporting the big companies, please give sources and examples to clarify":
The government owns much of the undeveloped land - calling it "public property" or "conservation areas". In many cases this makes it off limits for casual hikers, and it goes without saying permanent non-invasive settlement would not be condoned. "Squatters" sometimes choose to illegally build shacks in these types of areas and make their livings off the bounty of nature, sometimes being caught fined and having their cottages burnt down/otherwise destroyed, sometimes living without consequence and writing about it later. This is not what I propose. There is a lot of viable land still owned by private owners, who are selling, and which can be purchased and constructed to live off-grid (again, not Amish sensibilities where I‘m anti-technology or such) using the progressive PV technologies (Photovoltaic, aka Solar Power), wind turbines, water power, etc to create every modern enmity.
And big companies are /always/ supported by the government over ‘little guys‘, look at history or present day statistics (which are nefariously hard to find online). There have also been countless documentaries made to ‘expose the truth', some I would recommend being Capitalism: a love story or Food Inc.

"But we all have the choice to choose our careers, I am not going to be randomly assigned to a job I do not want."
Not randomly assigned, no, but forced to choose from a limited number (even entrepreneurship is limited by the market). This comment was made to assert that, personally, and everyone is different and some people love working in factories or desk jobs, but for me I would much rather work with the land and tend to animals and be outdoors all day every day. There's always a choice, and it's not for everybody -as it should be, people are not designed to all want the same things and if we were society would indubitably collapse

"Some people enjoy "modern materialism". I do not feel we ahve been duped of anything."
To each their own. I personally feel duped that we are expected to attend school systems teaching standardized materials and curriculums, disregarding whatever "choice" I supposedly have in careers. So, in my case, I spend my youth being filled with knowledge about law cases/important bill signings or physics and math logs, only to graduate and have to learn a whole /new/ set of skills - to survive! In most people's cases, granted, much of the knowledge would be beneficial in some point in time, in keeping with practices of progress.

"Repercussions?" technology … "I am genuinely pleased that I do not have to work in a farm all my life just to eat. I would prefer to follow my own ambitions."
Again, technology is /wonderful/, and always useful. That is not what I'm debating. The ‘corrupt bargains' being the switch to capitalism and consumerism etc. The repercussions being that it is now harder than ever before to ‘get your foot in the door' to the farming community/self-sufficiency/homesteaders/whatever you want to call the "back-to-basics" types.

"I certainly find it more appealing [,working a 9-5,] than working 5am-7pm on the farm with a hoe, and acres of land to be plowed, seeded, and harvested."
Fair enough, but again to each their own, and I must say, it's a good thing not everybody feels the same way, because the farmers need the people who work 9-5's to buy the harvests *shrug*

"I will Role-play …I do not see why we need to escape these things."
There's nothing wrong with any of those things, as a principle, it's just when they become the outlets for this desire for ‘something more' that it seems inane. Why /pretend/ to farm in a video game when you have a backyard that could be converted to a garden? Escapism into movies, talk, and rash actions - just wiki Christopher McCandless to see the perfect example of rash action gone wrong..

"And it seems my opponent, for some reason, thinks he knows what mindset and lifestyle I prefer. I do not want to live as a 'hunter gatherer' or famer."
That is perfectly fine, and I support your choice to live in such a way because it is necessary if I am to live the way I want to live.

"Who among us would be willing to give up their comfort for the unknown?"
"What does this have to do with anything?"
In the 60's, people in California were asked to lower their home temperatures from 72 to 68 to conserve energy. At first it was inconvenient, wearing sweaters instead of turning up the heat, but soon they found unexpected perks. They were more alert, energetic, etc. Now 72 would seem unbearable hot to most of them - when at the time it seemed such a daunting and unknown task to not live at that temperature.

" If this is how people really wanted to live, if it were in our nature to do so, we would have never evolved from our stage of farming, hunting, and gathering."
Not all people wish to live on a farm. And those, back in the day, who felt they wanted to do something else /Did/ it and society eventually relocated to cities to work for big business and live in nicer homes in suburbia by all the shops and convenience money could buy. This is how the majority of people /would/ prefer to live, but there were always those farming bumpkins, knocking about in the wild, producing the materials to make housewives' cooking possible, etc and so on. it's a balance, and we must never forget that we can't just /import/ everything, we need to support those locally who /want/ to produce for their neighbors, and who don't care as much about feather beds and mahogany dressers as they do about fine cattle and a good crop.

"I am not saying that this is impossible, but this is impractical. People seek to live convenient and comfortable lives with the freedom to follow their passion and ambitions."
For 95% of the population (no, that‘s not a real statistic, just a wild guesstimate), this means living in the city, or at least living in the country and commuting to the city to work and support the ‘outdoorsy‘ lifestyle. Most people take a yearly camping vacation and are full-up of ‘nature time' and ready to return to ‘real life'. But the 5% who's "comfort" and "passion" involves getting up early to milk the cows should be /able/ to do so, and not just /settle/ for a yearly camping vacation or weekend hikes or a summer house in the country etc etc
whatledge

Con

After reading your response, I am uncertain of your resolution. Fortunately we have 5 rounds. I ask that my opponent clarify his resolutions in the 3rd round.

I was assuming that my opponent's resolution was:
"Settlers had it right, taking advantage of "The Homestead Act", westward expansion, self-sufficient living, farming and animals, small close-knit towns and communities, hunting and gathering, etcetera. So why don't we live like that anymore?"
Debate Round No. 2
Polyp

Pro

Polyp forfeited this round.
whatledge

Con

whatledge forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Polyp

Pro

Polyp forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Polyp

Pro

Polyp forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by innomen 6 years ago
innomen
Ever smell the Amish?
Posted by wjmelements 6 years ago
wjmelements
Go be Amish.
Posted by Puck 6 years ago
Puck
Also my question was addressed at Pro. :P
Posted by Puck 6 years ago
Puck
Education was relatively non existent in the middle ages short of you being of the Church or an important family, or fortunate enough to be a high ranking employee of one.
Posted by Crevaux 6 years ago
Crevaux
Live in the woods? No. But I would rather live in a society where technology is only used for medical purposes. Some kind a better "Middle-Ages", when there was no global warming, no lazyness, more education...
Posted by Puck 6 years ago
Puck
So ... you want to live in the woods?
Posted by Crevaux 6 years ago
Crevaux
I do agree with you. Technology is a true harm to mankind. Because when you think about it, what is technology but a process allowing us to do as many things as possible from our couch. And then, we wonder why the new generation, of which I am a member, is getting increasingly lazy...
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
There is not even a hint of a resolution. I might debate it if there was something to debate.

There is plenty of incredibly cheap land in the US, so that is not a serious obstacle to forming a commune, or whatever. There are currently a fair number of such things.
Posted by feverish 6 years ago
feverish
"Settlers had it right, taking advantage of "The Homestead Act", westward expansion, self-sufficient living, farming and animals, small close-knit towns and communities, hunting and gathering, etcetera. So why don't we live like that anymore?"

You forgot slaughtering natives and eating all the buffallo.
Posted by Koopin 6 years ago
Koopin
What is the Resolution?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whatledge 6 years ago
whatledge
PolypwhatledgeTied
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Total points awarded:04