The Instigator
ObiWan
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
Costello
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Anakin Skywalker was to blame for the demise of the Jedi Order

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
ObiWan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/3/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,881 times Debate No: 24978
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (15)
Votes (1)

 

ObiWan

Pro

We meet again Costello!

This will be a debate about whether or not The demise of the Jedi (not the republic) was due to the actions of Anakin Skywalker

The majority of the BoP will fall to pro although con must provide arguments proving that it was not Anakin that caused the destruction of the Jedi.

Round 1 is for acceptance only. 2-4 are for arguments/rebuttals

Definitions:
Blame:
To hold responsible.
Demise:
termination of existence or operation


May the Force be with you...
Costello

Con

I ACCEPT!Sorry for not accepting on Saturday.. Lost track of time...

I cannot wait to debate this!

Let the best man win!

I was looking at keyboard Art and thought this was pretty cool I wanted to share it with you!




Here's the link.. Some awesome Star wars art here.

http://the.sunnyspot.org...



Debate Round No. 1
ObiWan

Pro

Thankyou too my opponent for accepting this debate :D
Lets get started:

Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one, the one who would bring balance to the force, was a reckless Jedi Knight to say the least. He constantly placed himself in harms with reckless acts, such as diving out of a moving speeder on Coruscant or throwing himself of cliffs during he clone wars.

Still, although he was reckless, Anakin was a good Jedi, he fought bravely for the republic and believed in achieving piece. His downfall though, was his inability to let go of personal attachments, first towards his mother then later and ultimately, his feelings for Padmé.

It was these feelings that lead to Anakin converting to the dark side of the force. The first real evidence of this that we see is one Tatooine, when he murders a whole tribe of Tusken Raiders, including the innocent women and children, after he discovers that his mother is dead. As master Yoda says, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." This quote perfectly sums up Anakins career as a Jedi. In Revenge of the Sith he begins to fear for Padmé's life, which leads to him becoming angry that he can not prevent it, and begin to hate himself for it. This hate is then projected onto the Jedi council when they do not make him a Jedi Master. Finally the hate culminates in him virtually killing Padmé himself and condemning himself to suffer for the rest of his life.

This path that Anakin follows inevitably leads to his conversion to the dark side of the force and the subsequent destruction of the Jedi Order. When Palpatine is able to convince Anakin to kill Dooku about The Invisible Hand we later learn that this is where he decides to sway Anakin to the dark side. Had Anakin listened to his training and not gone against the way of the Jedi, and not killed an unarmed opponent, then perhaps Palpatine would not have seen Anakin as a potential pupil. Without Anakin to aide him, Palpatine may not have been able to overthrow the Jedi the way in which he did. He may not have invited Anakin to the opera the evening that he told him about the powers of the Sith and he would not have made it clear to Anakin that he was the sith that they were searching for.

If it wasn't for this then Palpatine may not have had a reason to execute order 66 and wipe out the Jedi or perhaps he could have been stopped before he was able to. Regardless, we can blame Anakin for allowing him this opportunity and therefore the blame of the demise of the Jedi must also fall to Anakin.

Even more obvious then the role Anakin played as pawn for Palpatine to finally swing his plan into action was the fact that he actually saves Palpatine from Mace Windu. If Anakin had not been so desperate to save Padmé from the death that he had foreseen in his vision then Mace Windu would have defeated Palpatine on Coruscant and the Republic and the Jedi Order would have continued. Instead, Anakin disarms Windu, allowing Palpatine to throw him to his death. Anakin Skywalker is clearly responsible for saving the life of Palpatine. If Palpatine had of died then there would have been no Order 66. So the blame for the tragic actions of order 66 and the subsequent wipe out of the majority of the Jedi must be placed on Anakin.

Over to you Con.

p.s. sorry it took so long, I've been watching way too much of the Olympics.

p.p.s. that keyboard art is absolutely fantastic!


SOURCES:
http://starwars.wikia.com...;
http://starwars.wikia.com...
;(the youtibe video that i can't get to go to the bottom)
Costello

Con

No problem! I've been watching the Olympics to. Its amazing the. Power of these people. some of them almost seem supernatural they are so strong and skilled.


p.p.s. that keyboard art is absolutely fantastic! - I know right? I love the one with the Big storm trooper...

Lets do it shall we?

I want to thank my opponent for this wonderful debate!

Some of the voters may wonder, How am I going to possible argue this! The first time I read this debate topic that was my first thought. Then about 5 seconds later I saw there are so many ways that this can be Well debated. Let us start!


I will be quoting parts of information from the link [1] below and commenting on them.

Plagueis[2] and Sidious, both exceptionally skilled and powerful in the the Force, were able to conceal the darkness within them from even the most powerful members of the Jedi Order for decades. Sidious' ability to present himself as an honest politician, and simultaneously living as a Sith Lord in secret, allowed him to manipulate many important figures and events that contributed to the blockade of Naboo by the Trade Federation.

Sidious like his master was a master at putting on a costume and manipulating every key onto his side.

Galactic Senate voted to elect him as Supreme Chancellor. With the Republic's chief executive branch under Palpatine's control, the first phase of the Sith Grand Plan was realized while the Jedi remained in the dark about his true identity.

Palpatines rise to power did just fall in to place. He had a plan that he and his master had plotted for a long time and with there master manipulative power they Began the Grand Scheme to Destroy not just the republic but the Jedi the Sith hated so much.

As Chancellor of the Republic and Dark Lord of the Sith, Palpatine orchestrated the outbreak of the Clone Wars

Another example of how the Dark Lord of the Sith can manipulate anything he really wants (For the most part)

Palpatine revealed his identity as Darth Sidious to the Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker. All proceeded according to plan when Skywalker informed Jedi Master Mace Windu of Palpatine's duplicity

Anakin was a pawn in the Grand scheme of Palpatines plan. He used Anakin in his "Plan"


Finally! Palpatines plan has all fell into place! Its come down to the wire! The moment palpatine has been waiting for!
http://youtu.be...[3] As seen in this video!


As we see in this video Windu comes to "Arrest" Palpatine. Note Windu has no right to "arrest" the Chancellor on the Word of only one person. Anyhow Windu decides he will "arrest" Palpatine. At the end of the battle palpatine is very weak with TWO full Jedi there with the ability to arrest him. But windu decides to go AGAINST the Jedi code and kill palpatine. At this point both Anakins Evil side and good side are telling him you have to stop windu! His good side telling him he must stop Windu from breaking the code. His bad side telling him he doesn't want padme to die!


If windu had arrested palpatine there was lightsabers force lightning marks! His very face was proof enough! But windu decided to kill him. Anakin was USED in a roll of telling the Jedi about palpatines secret. After windu had failed to KILL palpatine, Palpatine Declared Treason on the Jedi council and Executed Order 66.

It was Palpatines plan that lead to the destruction of the Jedi order And windu and Anakin were just Pawns. If you say Anakin destroyed the Jedi Order, You must say Windu destroyed the Jedi Order. Windu executed the Arrest that lead to the declared treason of the Jedi Order, playing a equal if not bigger role in the destruction of the Jedi order then Anakin did. But Neither Windu or Anakin destroyed the Jedi Order. It was palpatine's Ingenious plotted plan.


....


I will now respond to some Key thing Pro has brought out

"When Palpatine is able to convince Anakin to kill Dooku about The
Invisible Hand we later learn that this is where he decides to sway Anakin to
the dark side. Had Anakin listened to his training and not gone against the way
of the Jedi,
and not killed an unarmed opponent, then perhaps Palpatine would not
have seen Anakin as a potential pupil. Without Anakin to aide him, Palpatine
may not have been able to overthrow the Jedi the way in which he did. He may
not have invited Anakin to the opera the evening that he told him about the powers
of the Sith and he would not have made it clear to Anakin that he was the sith
that they were searching for."

What my Opponent his claimed here is that Anakin was a good Jedi and didn't kill dooku Palpatine wouldn't of noticed and his plan wouldn't of gone the way it did. Anakin was as you said merely a Pawn. Palpatine had noticed Anakins power Way before the Invisible hand. And he decided to use anakin way before the invisible hand. What he did on the invisible hand was just ONE of the key parts in turning Anakin into his apprentice.


Now lets just say anakin was never born never existed. Was that going to stop palpatines plan all together?


Do you think palpatine would of just went

Well a Ultra powerful young Jedi with family issues hasn't come along yet... Darn.. I guess I will just have to stop my plan....


No. Palpatine could of used MANY MANY MANY MANY other people in the roll anakin played. But he wanted anakin to play that specific roll because I wanted a powerful apprentice. Do you think Anakin was the only one capable of stopping windu from KILLING palpatine and out right breaking the JEDI CODE.


"Even more obvious then the role Anakin played as pawn for Palpatine to
finally swing his plan into action was the fact that he actually saves
Palpatine from Mace Windu. If Anakin had not been so desperate to save Padmé
from the death that he had foreseen in his vision then Mace Windu would have
defeated Palpatine on Coruscant and the Republic and the Jedi Order would have
continued. Instead, Anakin disarms Windu, allowing Palpatine to throw him to
his death. Anakin Skywalker is clearly responsible for saving the life of
Palpatine. If Palpatine had of died then there would have been no Order 66. So
the blame for the tragic actions of order 66 and the subsequent wipe out of the
majority of the Jedi must be placed on Anakin"



Some fans may see this quote as a break in my case. So I will discuss it.

I will break the quote above into small sections.

"Even more obvious then the role Anakin played as pawn for Palpatine to
finally swing his plan into action was the fact that he actually saves
Palpatine from Mace Windu. - Yes Anakin saved Mace windu from breaking the Jedi Code. And palpatine took advantage. Here Anakin was doing his duty to stop Windu from breaking the code. So you could blame the guy that made the code..... Also Palpatine used Anakin as a pawn. He could of used other Jedi or even none Jedi to save him from windu.

Also, There is no proof of this. But it is possible palpatine let windu defeat him in such a way to turn anakin to the dark side to become his apprentice. Who is to say the Dark lord of the sith couldn't of easily defeated windu if he wanted to?


If Anakin had not been so desperate to save Padmé
from the death that he had foreseen in his vision then Mace Windu would have
defeated Palpatine on Coruscant and the Republic and the Jedi Order would have
continued. Instead, Anakin disarms Windu, allowing Palpatine to throw him to
his death.


Anakin acted partly the way he did to stop windu from breaking the code. He disarmed windu to stop him from breaking the Jedi code and killing palpatine. And palpatine did not need anakin to do that for him. Palpatine just wanted anakin to so he would turn to the darkside. Palpatine could of used a lot of people to save him.

"So
the blame for the tragic actions of order 66 and the subsequent wipe out of the
majority of the Jedi must be placed on Anakin" Actually what gave palpatine the right to order 66 was windus arrest.


[1] http://starwars.wikia.com...
[2]http://starwars.wikia.com...

[3] http://youtu.be...



Over to you con!









Debate Round No. 2
ObiWan

Pro

Ok, I think I've managed to digest all of Cons debate:

First Of all I would like to rebut the points that he made.
First and foremost, con argues that Anakin was merely used as a pawn by Palpatine and that Palpatine could have used any other Jedi to carry out his plan.
I must disagree. By arguing that Anakin was just following Palpatines plan you are also arguing that Anakin was not in control of his own fate and that from the moment that Palpatine decided to include Anakin in his plan he had no choice over the matter. This, however, is not true. In the video that con used we see Anakin pause and think before attacking Windu. He is clearly deciding what he should do, and in the end his desire to save Padmé overcame him and he acted the way that he did. At this point Anakin could have easily chose to do nothing at all to stop Windu, or he could have elected to aide Windu. If this had happen then the leader of the Separatists would be dead, the war would end, and the Jedi order would remain.

Furthermore after betraying the Jedi and siding with Palpatine, Anakin breathlessly exclaims, "What have I done?"
This indicates that he knows that he has set down a path that he knows he can not turn back from, a path that he knows he could have easily avoided. In short, Anakin always had a choice, and he chose to side with Palpatine. So even if Anakin became a part of Palpatine's plan, he didn't have to be.

Secondly, my opponent argues: If you say Anakin destroyed the Jedi Order, You must say Windu destroyed the Jedi Order. Windu executed the Arrest that lead to the declared treason of the Jedi Order, playing a equal if not bigger role in the destruction of the Jedi order then Anakin did.

Mace Windu was not doing anything wrong. In his eyes, and from the Jedi point of view, he was acting in the service of the republic by arresting their greatest war enemy, who just happened to had been right under their noses the whole time. While admittedly this may not have gone over great with the senators, Windu was just fulfilling the duty of the Jedi Order, who were sworn to protect the republic. Also con contends that it was Windu's arrest that allowed Palpatine to execute Order 66. But if Anakin had not stopped Windu then Palpatine would not have been able to carry out the order in the first place and the Jedi would have been able to explain their actions to the senate.

Now that that is out of the way I would like to add a couple more points of my own.

Anakin Skywalker not only allowed the Sith to rise to power he also slaughtered the younglings at the Jedi temple, preventing the next generation of Jedi Knights from developing and continuing the Order. This act alone would eventually bring about the demise of the Jedi Order in itself and the blame for it must fall to Anakin Skywalker. I'm almost certain that here Con will argue that Anakin was ordered to do this by Palpatine and therefore it wasn't his fault. But remember, Anakin always had a choice and even if he was just carrying out orders the younglings were still all mercilessly killed by him. If the action had taken place on the battlefield you could contend that Anakin was just fighting in the heat of the moment. But the younglings were killed in cold blood while they were defenseless and trusting of Anakin, a fact that he easily exploited.

Not as long as Cons post, but I think it does the Job.

Your Turn!!

Costello

Con

I wish to thank pro for continuing this debate ,and even more so bringing up some good points!


Let it begin! My opponent makes this stance.

"First and foremost, con argues that Anakin was merely used as a pawn by Palpatine and that
Palpatine could have used any other Jedi to carry out his plan.

I must disagree. By arguing that Anakin was just following Palpatines plan

you are also arguing that Anakin was not in control of his own fate and that
from the moment that Palpatine decided to include Anakin in his plan he had no
choice over the matter. This, however, is not true. In the video that con used
we see Anakin pause and think before attacking Windu. He is clearly deciding
what he should do, and in the end his desire to save Padmé overcame him and he
acted the way that he did. At this point Anakin could have easily chose to do
nothing at all to stop Windu, or he could have elected to aide Windu. If this
had happen then the leader of the Separatists would be dead, the war would end,
and the Jedi order would remain."

Here my opponent does not counter the fact that Palpatine could of used pretty much anyone to save him. Now he says I am arguing that Anakin was not in control of his own fate. I thank my opponent for bringing up this wonderful part of the debate, on did Anakin have control over his choice! Anakin was Predestined to bring BALANCE to the force it was his FATE he had no choice over this matter.


Now this sentence in his debate has already been countered, but I will remind the voters.

"He is clearly deciding
what he should do, and in the end his desire to save Padmé overcame him and he
acted the way that he did."


I'm sorry but this is just not true. In the video provided from round 2, at 2:59 Anakin tells windu that "He must stand trial" Not only did windu not have any true grounds to arrest him. Not only is the chancellor unarmed. But Windu now decides to take the power of executioner, instead of arresting the CHANCELLOR OF THE REPUBLIC.

At 3:11 of the video, as palpatine is completely in the hands of windu, Anakin reminds windu that this is not the Jedi way, that he must live.

(Again windu is trying to "Arrest" palpatine on possible false grounds. Because A: On the word of only one man. B: On the grounds of a war that ended so long ago. Palpatine might of been powerful in the Sith ways, but the war with the Sith empire was over. There was no grounds to kill palpatine let alone arrest him)

It was palpatines actions that lead to anakins actions, that lead to windus actions ,that finally lead to anakins actions.

Blame
:


To hold responsible.

Anakins was trying to stop windu from breaking the Jedi Orders LAWS. I will formulate this with a illustration.

If a man is put in jail for false crimes for 20 years, and when he finally gets out, Robs a bank and becomes a true criminal. Because of his now "Friends in prisons" influence. Who is RESPONSIBLE for him turning into a criminal? Him? His Criminal friends? Or the people that illegally put him in there. But even more so, Who is responsible for the man being put in Jail? The People that put him there, Or the people that framed him?


Anakin should truly of never been put in the position he was in. Let windu break the Jedi code along with killing the person that he thought he "Needed".


Consider this.


A: Palpatine is RESPONSIBLE or to blame for telling Anakin about himself.

B: If A is true then Palpatine is RESPONSIBLE or to blame for Anakin obeying the code and telling Windu what he knows.


C: Windu Unjustly trying to "arrest" and in the end trying to KILL the Chancellor of the Republic on the Grounds of Anakins Word.


If A is true then B is true then C is true.


Now let us go into another argument I shortly made in round 1. Palpatine LET windu defeat him in such a way that would force Anakin to stop windu from breaking the code. Notice the provided youtube link in round 2, in that video at 1:02 Palpatine has a clear shot at stabbing windu and avoiding his "Arrest" but he does not. Now notice a NEW video. http://youtu.be.... [1]

Yoda who is stronger then windu. Arguably one of the most strongest Jedi in history, or at least for a few centuries. Yoda puts up a good fight but is DEFEATED by palpatine.


So consider this


A: Yoda is stronger then windu


B: Palpatine defeats Yoda


C: Palpatine must of let Windu defeat him in such a way that would Force anakin to make a decision. Allow Windu to break the Jedi Code along with killing the man he didn't want to die. So far my opponent argues that if Anakin did not make the choice he did Order 66 wouldn't of been ordered and All is well.


Chancellor Palpatine of the Republic, A master of manipulation, Manipulated the ENTIRE thing. Manipulating Windu into trying to kill him, and manipulating Anakin into showing up to supposedly save him from a enemy he could of easily defeated.


There is no other conclusion to come to.


Anakin the Chosen one whose Fate was set.


Palpatine Manipulating and controlling the Whole situation down to a breaking point he PLANED and already new the out-come of.


Now something my I Opponent has said that must be addressed.

"Anakin Skywalker not only allowed the Sith to rise to power he also
slaughtered the younglings at the Jedi temple, preventing the next generation
of Jedi Knights from developing and continuing the Order. This act alone would
eventually bring about the demise of the Jedi Order in itself and the blame for
it must fall to Anakin Skywalker. I'm almost certain that here Con will argue
that Anakin was ordered to do this by Palpatine and therefore it wasn't his
fault. But remember, Anakin always had a choice and even if he was just
carrying out orders the younglings were still all mercilessly killed by him. If
the action had taken place on the battlefield you could contend that Anakin was
just fighting in the heat of the moment. But the younglings were killed in cold
blood while they were defenseless and trusting of Anakin, a fact that he easily
exploited."


At this point Anakin did not kill the Younglings, Darth Vader did. And if VADER did not kill those younglings, Storm troopers would have.


I have attacked this Debate topic from multiple Directions, I await my Opponents response!

[1] - http://youtu.be....


Over to you Pro!
Debate Round No. 3
ObiWan

Pro



LAST ROUND, LETS GO...

I feel I have already provided a sound argument as to why Anakin Skywalker was to blame for the demise of the Jedi Order. So I will use this round to further refute my opponents debate.

First: Con has argued that Anakin was not in control of his own fate because he was the one chosen to bring balance to the force. While I feel that George Lucas never fully achieves this, I can not see how destroying the Jedi Order would in any way bring about balance. The prophecy states that he will bring balance, but it never says how. Anakin could easily have allowed Palpatine to be killed, which would bring as much balance to the force as Darth Vader killing Palpatine in ROTJ. If anything you could argue that by allowing Palpatine to live, Anakin was acting against his fate and what the prophecy foretold.

My opponent also argues that WIndu has no real reason to arrest Palpatine. He also argues that the Windu is only arresting Palpatine 'on the grounds of a war that ended long ago'. I ould like to remind my opponent that there is a war raging in the galaxy during this time. Windu is not stupid. To infer that he would not have figured out that Palpatine was Dooku's master and hence the most wanted war criminal in the republic as the man behind the separatist movements, would be ridiculous.

Next point: Palpatine allowed himself to be defeated by WIndu. Con attempts to prove this by implying that Palpatine defeated Yoda and Yoda is more powerful then Windu. I think Con has overlooked an important distinction here. While Yoda is stronger with the force than Windu, WIndu is stronger in battle, as represented by his purple lightsaber.

Con's last point was that Anakin is not to blame for the murder of the younglings at the Jedi Temple, because at that point he was Darth Vader. THis is just plain absurd. He is still the same person, sure he has become very dark and twisted, but he is still Anakin Skywalker, although he is now known as Darth Vader. If Barak Obama decided to change his name to Francis McFluffypants and then dropped a bomb on the middle east, it would still be the same person doing it, just going by a different name.

I successfully have rebutted my opponents points and rebuttals. My arguments have held strong. VOTE PRO!
Costello

Con

Costello forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by The-Holy-Macrel 1 year ago
The-Holy-Macrel
How exactly am i supposed to vote?
Posted by countdooku 1 year ago
countdooku
However it's justified enough to arrest rather than killing him unlawfully and let the court decide his faith.
Posted by countdooku 1 year ago
countdooku
I don't think people like palpatine will be imprisonment for 20 years.I think he will receive either death penalty or life sentence due to his position of power of trust of being a senate that could be very threatening and seriously harmful to the jedi and republic.
Posted by countdooku 1 year ago
countdooku
All what anakin wants is to save padme life and he aren't able to control his own faith.Just like you guys said anakin was just a pawn.However in episode 6 he save luke skywalker lives and kill the emperor.That'swhy luke skywalker realize that there is some goodness inside of darth vader and he believe that there is still some hope to return him from the darkside.
Posted by countdooku 1 year ago
countdooku
If windu agreed with anakin strategy then palpatine would have been arrested and the empire wouldn't rise.Anakin is inherently good,he even feel guilty when palpatine force him to kill count dooku and he isn't willingly to kill count dooku.
Posted by countdooku 1 year ago
countdooku
Anakin have right to stop windu from killing palpatine because what windu is doing is wrong and he violate the rule of the jedi.Remember what anakin have said,,It's not the jedi way to kill'
Anakin do support windu to arrest palpatine that's why he ordered windu to arrest palpatine.But he didn't say windu should killed palpatine.
Posted by ObiWan 4 years ago
ObiWan
costello, if you have a topic, I'm more then happy to debate you, Star Wars or not.
Posted by Costello 4 years ago
Costello
Thank you ryuu for voting! I feel like I had addressed Obiwans concerns in the debate as whole, but you are correct I needed that last round to bring all of those points together as one, and put the nail on the coffin so to speak.

I want to again thank my opponent for this debate as my first two debates with him have proved to be a great learning experience for me in the way I debate my debates. :)

If he wishes we may have more debates in the future, Either Star Wars or something else.

(I also want to thank ryuu for not letting this wonderful debate go untied)
Posted by ObiWan 4 years ago
ObiWan
Is there a way to make this come up on the home page, because it doesn't appear to be.
Posted by Costello 4 years ago
Costello
I am deeply sorry for this Forfeit, I had lost track of how much time I had. I was actually planning on posting my Final round debate but I see now I am a day late. I apologize to my opponent and voters.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by RyuuKyuzo 4 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
ObiWanCostelloTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: It's a shame Con forfeited. I feel he had a strong argument, but he needed that last round to drive it home (assuming he could have). As it is, Pro's arguments have not been defeated and so his BOP is fulfilled. Conduct to Pro for FF