The Instigator
camdamage
Pro (for)
Winning
13 Points
The Contender
C-Mach
Con (against)
Losing
12 Points

Anarcho-Syndicalism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/16/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,014 times Debate No: 533
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (8)

 

camdamage

Pro

Anarchism (A general outlook)
1. The belief that all forms of government are oppressive and therefore undesirable.
2. The desire to therefore create a "Utopia" based on free human cooperation in which all members of the "Utopia" are equal without laws, class, prejudice, militarism or hierarchy or the need there of.
3. Recognizing that a autonomous community is the embodiment of this "Utopia" based on empirical examples which have manifested through out the course of history.

"Anarchism is no patent solution for all human problems, no Utopia of a perfect social order, as it has so often been called, since on principle it rejects all absolute schemes and concepts. It does not believe in any absolute truth, or in definite final goals for human development, but in an unlimited perfectibility of social arrangements and human living conditions, which are always straining after higher forms of expression, and to which for this reason one can assign no definite terminus nor set any fixed goal".
-Rudolf Rocker

In a sense, Anarcho-Syndicalism is a belief that advocates changing what you can, where you can, while emulating anarchist Utopian values.
C-Mach

Con

First of all, you need some government. As a Libertarian, I'm not saying we should have a big complicated mess of red tape. In fact, just the opposite. But human beings can be evil (I'm not saying I have no faith in people to be moral, just, and trustworthy, just that some of them are), and can make things worse. As James Madison said, "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." But the sad truth is, human kind is not (and probably never will) perfect enough for no government, at least not yet. As a mater of fact, the word "human" is also a definition for being "imperfect," and so shall remain.
Debate Round No. 1
camdamage

Pro

I see the point you're making and it's an obviously very valid one. However I'm not advocating an immediate nor gradual (though it would be nice) ascension into global Anarchism. I'm advocating an ideology that believes that the emulation of Utopian anarchist morales through constant activism will bring us closer to that utopia.

It's more or less a method of activism. It's been defined as the truest form of Marxism as Karl Marx himself once said that socialism and communism are but mere stages towards humanity's purest form which would be a world without hierarchy. This is why the Anarcho-Syndicalist flag is red and black. The red(representing socialism) is on top and the Black (representing Anarchism on the bottom). It's supposed to represent the gradual transition into a better world.

So what I'm getting at is this is a theory/method of activism as such what are the cons of said method?
C-Mach

Con

Odd thing is, Karl Marx said on his deathbed in London, that he made a big mistake by spreading Communism. Also, the guy didn't work a day in his life. Anyway, still, anarcho-syndicalism is wrong.
Debate Round No. 2
camdamage

Pro

Karl Marx did come to realize that communism was a mistake and he was right. Throughout the years, aside from the suppression of dissent and in some cases, mass genocide caused by them, communists have been one of the biggest anti-revolutionary forces in history but that's another issue.

Care to give me a reason as to why my ideology is wrong? Are you buying time to get the final word in so I can't refute? I hate to let this debate go to waste...
C-Mach

Con

I am not wasting your time here. A Utopia with no laws would be great, but it's just unattainable at this moment, and most likely never. As I said before, if some men weren't evil, this would be attainable. Oh, and one more thing: If I supported ANY anarchist ideology, I would support anarcho-capitalism, because capitalism WORKS, and it has been proven. If you want to add anything, add it to your comments, and I will see what you have to say.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
Had to vote for C-mach on this one. In the final analysis, the overall attempt at a return to "humanity's purest form," via any method, is a fallacy - it is neither practical nor possible to regress from where we are today, although I admit it can be an attractive idea.
On a side note, I have to ask C-Mach: Capitalism works for who? Both Totalitarian Communism and Corporate Capitalism are equally failed economic systems, in my view. No, I don't have a better recommendation. Just a question.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
C-Match: The difference between left-wing anarchists like camdamage and anarcho-capitalists like Murray Rothbard are based only on personal values and the prediction of what statelessness would be like. Anarchism, whether left or right, is statelessness. Anarcho-capitalism is the belief that, in the absence of the state, property would be respected. Left-wing anarchism believes that property would be held in common. Neither is a "system" -- anarchism is an anti-system.

Based on your statements, you are not an anarcho-capitalist because you believe that property would not be respected in a stateless society. I am sort of inclined to agree with you, which is why I'm a minarchist, not an anarchist. But I thought I should point out that "anarcho-capitalism" is not a system; it is a belief of what would be in the absence of the state. The "system" (really the lack thereof) is no different than the (anti) "system" advocated by left-wing anarchists.

Anarcho-syndicalism is a "path" to anarchism. So, too, was communism (supposedly). Ironically, Communism recognized the evil of the state -- and yet, completely contradictorily, advocated more state to minimize the state. Then again, this is the exact same theory advanced by modern conservatives.
Posted by thinkingduck 9 years ago
thinkingduck
This debate would benefit from more of a focus on anarcho-syndicalism as a process or tool for achieving progress. I don't know if camdamage's emphasis on the means to an end is accurate or representative of the concept. Maybe the debate could be redone with a sharper proposition at the outset.
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by mcc1789 7 years ago
mcc1789
camdamageC-MachTied
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Vote Placed by asquitiro 8 years ago
asquitiro
camdamageC-MachTied
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Vote Placed by kenito001 9 years ago
kenito001
camdamageC-MachTied
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Vote Placed by kato0291 9 years ago
kato0291
camdamageC-MachTied
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Vote Placed by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
camdamageC-MachTied
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Vote Placed by SimonZ 9 years ago
SimonZ
camdamageC-MachTied
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Vote Placed by camdamage 9 years ago
camdamage
camdamageC-MachTied
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Vote Placed by C-Mach 9 years ago
C-Mach
camdamageC-MachTied
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