Anderson Silva did not throw his fight with Chris Weidman
I am hoping to argue with another MMA afficionado over Anderson Silva's stunning loss to Chris Weidman via KO. I have recently seen several commentors speculating that Silva threw the fight to get a bigger rematch. I will be arguing that this is not the case. Obviously there is no concrete evidence, so we will be left to hypothetical examinations of pre and post fight behavior. Burden of proof is on Con to present arguments for Silva intentionally losing the fight. Voters should vote based on who made the best arguments/rebuttals, not who they agree with. Here is the structure of the debate:
1st round- Con acceptance
2nd round- Pro argument pertaining to motivation. Con rebuttal and opening argument pertaining to pre fight behavior
3rd round- Pro rebuttal, Con argument pertaining to behavior during the fight
4th round- Pro rebuttal, Con argument pertaining to post fight behavior.
5th round- Conclusions from both sides.
Most of my last debates ended with forfeits from the other side, so I hope my opponent is dedicated to debating. I look forward to a challenger as passionate as I am and a great debate!
Why would he throw the fight?
1) Silva is 38
2) Silva has 10 fights left on his contract. That would mean he would have to fight until he is roughly 45. Training year round at that age must be exhausting. Baseball players don't even make it to that age.
3) In order to get out of his contract, he would either need Dana White's permission or buy his way out costing him millions.
4) In his career as a UFC title holder, Silva has be in exactly one close fight. Chael Sonnen 1, in which he fought with a serious injury and still managed to submit Sonnen in the final round.
5) As a title holder, Silva is forced to fight top competition. This means he has to train hard to stay in fighting shape. Everyone is gunning for him. And, most importantly, as the unanimous best pound for pound fighter, he has people pestering him and his family all the time.
6) If Dana White were going to allow Silva to run off into the sunset and retire, he would need a champion to take his place. Preferably a good looking, god faring, all-American boy with the ability to defend his title for at least a few fights. And, that champion would need to earn the belt with a victory, rather than receive it as a hand me down. The bottom line is, Silva sells tickets. If tonights main event was Weidman Sonnen, I don't buy a PPV ticket and neither do millions of other viewers. Having knocked out Silva, UFC has a white all-american champ to carry the UFC torch with Jon Jones.
Evidence that he did throw the fight?
1) He entrance routine changed for this fight. He stopped and squatted on the yellow line before entering the arena as if to take everything in for one last time.
2) He kissed and hugged everyone on his team and thanked them before stepping into the ring.
3) Every punch he threw was with an open hand. I went back and watched the fight in slow motion. It's quite obvious.
4) Every kick missed by at least 8 inches, even though Weidman didn't dodge more than an inch or two. For the most accurate striker in MMA history, that's strange.
5) He clowned around the entire time he wasn't on the ground. Yes, he clowns around a lot. But, he never actually lets his opponents hit him in the face. Tonight, he was standing in and letting himself get hit. Maybe he was just being even more cocky than usual, BUT
6) Do you believe a guy that is cocky enough to act the way he does in the ring, would simply roll over, hand off the belt, turn down a title shot on the spot, and admit that Weidman is "The best now." Note: Silva doesn't speak English. He has never given a post-fight speech where he spoke so coherently in English. It was almost as if he has prepared that speech.
7) This is what convinced me he went into the ring intending to get knocked out. I didn't believe it after the first watch. I thought he just got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. But, at the end of the first round, when he is yelling at Weidman and telling him to hit him in the face, he dodges the punch like he always does with what appears to be instincts. Then, he mouths "come on" to himself, shakes his head as if he is psyching himself up to get hit, walks sideways with out looking at weidman, and then sticks his head out again and starts taking all of Weidman's punches to the face instead of dodging them.
8) Before he got knocked out, he was doing that fake wobble thing with his EYES CLOSED. Either he has zero respect for Weidman or he wasn't really trying to win. And, if he had zero respect for Weidman, why doesn't he want a rematch and why does he call him the best now in his post-fight speach.
9) Weidman thanks him for the "opportunity" in their embrace after he wins. What opportunity? Silva doesn't have control over who he fights. It isn't boxing. Was he talking about giving him an opening? Or, was he talking about letting him be champion?
10) While Silva has clowned around before, he always clowns then attacks. Tonight, he didn't attack once. He didn't throw a single punch with a closed fist in this whole fight.
In conclusion, I think that Silva decided he wants to stop fighting. He can't retire without forfeiting millions of dollars, so he decided to loose and relinquish the belt so that he can relax. I don't know whether Dana White knew about it or not. Although, I think it is a bit of a coincidence that the new champion is exactly the kind of champion UFC needs and Dana White wants. I think Silva intended to get knocked out. It a fighters way to go out. As a guy that has knocked so many people out without ever being knocked out himself, I think that he wanted to know what it felt like. I think he wanted to put on a show and go out with a bang. It is a fighters way out. He didn't bow out outside of the ring. He took his final bows in the octagon and went out like a fighter. For a guy that is that cocky, that great a fighter, loosing to someone he doesn't respect then turning down a re-match and verbally handing him the torch doesn't make much sense, especially when you factor in the open fist slap/punches and pre and post fight antics.
I would like to thank my opponent for accepting and for a great opening argument. I can't wait to get into it.
On why he should throw the fight:
Your argument for why he would throw the fight seems to be: He is getting old and tired (points 1,2,5) wants to get out of his post-fight contract (points 2,3) and was looking for a suitable replacement to pass the torch to (point 6). I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with point 4. Please correct me if I misunderstood something. Now, I agree that his getting old could be a motivation. However, he is/was largely considered the greatest of all time. He had a legacy to defend, why would he throw that away because he was tired? I don't think he threw the fight because he was tired, I think he saw the loss coming and was somewhat relieved that it happened. Your second and third points argue that he wanted to get out of his 10 fight contract, when he said in his post-fight interview he would fill out his contract (1). As for point 6, that he and Dana White arranged his successor is bordering on ridiculous. It is just nonsensical to think that they sat down and planned out what would happen. Due to the uncertainty of the sport, you can't plan things like that in MMA.
Evidence that he threw the fight:
The format I laid out (1st round- Con acceptance, etc..) wasn't followed, but it's too late now. I made that format to try to keep the arguments more organized and easier for the viewers to read.
Points 1-2 are countered by this video (2). Start watching at 8:10, he did the same thing.
As to points 3-4, I can't find a link to the full fight, what are you basing these points off? Memory? I was watching the fight as well and most of his leg kicks connected by my recollection.
To points 5&6: Clowning is his style, as you said. He knew he would have to try harder to get into Weidman's head, so he changed his behavior around even more than usual, not touching gloves, etc. I don't believe it was being cocky either, as shown here by Silva, Dana White, and Chris Weidman (@ 39 seconds), this behavior was a ploy to keep the fight off the ground where he faced a steep disadvantage, not him trying to give away the fight (3).
To points 7,8,10, watch this gif of the knockout (4). Silva wobbled to get into Weidman's head, and he opened his eyes as Weidman began to throw his punches. It seems like Silva was expecting a right hand, he moved straight into Weidman's left hook, and out of reflex, not intentionally. Silva was toying with him waiting for an opening, and got stunned instead. Silva's style which is dependent on his incredible reflexes and timing, finally faltered. Silva called him the best because he is a humble fighter. To 9, Weidman just won the world championship, he is probably not thinking of his phrasing. Are you insinuating that Weidman was in on it too?
If Silva wanted to stop fighting, he wouldn't have confirmed that he is going to fill out his contract in the post-fight interview and press conference. I believe he respected Weidman, but did not intend to get knocked out. If that is the case, why didn't he let Weidman keep pounding on him when he was on top? I believe Silva did not intentionally throw the fight. It's possible he was relieved that he lost, but I believe that he just got caught because his head games didn't get to Weidman like they did everyone else, and Weidman finally exposed a hole in his famous hands-down, chin-up tactics.
I look forward to hearing my opponent's response!
Contract status: "Silva['s] manager Ed Soares said Saturday Silva can opt in defeat to retire at any time during the deal." (Pugmire, pg 1)
Pro argument 1) He had to defend his legacy as the greatest MMA fighter of all time, and loosing this fight tarnished that legacy. If you take Anderson at his word, he stated before the fight that he did not believe that loosing to Weidman would effect his legacy. "I think my legacy is already fully completed. I already fought in many places in the world and I think I am the one athlete in the sport who has four belts in four different worldwide events. I no longer look for any bigger challenge for my career, I don"t look to be better than anybody, I only look to be better than who I am every day as a person, as a human being. I try to pass a good example of human being for people who are around me, this is the most important for me. It"s not a fight against Jon Jones, Georges Saint Pierre or even with Chris Weidman that will change my legacy. Winning or losing is part of the business and it won" be changed. What"s written, has been written. I believe a fight versus Roy Jones Jr would be way more cool [than fighting Jones or GSP]." (Cruz, pg 1)
Pro Argument 2) You can't plan things in UFC. Fights have been fixed since fighting for entertainment became inextricably linked with money. This fight may not have been fixed, but suggesting that is may have been is not ludicrous. I will go into detail below about the motivations for fixing this fight.
Pro Argument 3) Silva embracing his team before entering the ring. I concede this point.
Pro Argument 4) He landed leg kicks. True, but he did not throw a single shot that could have hurt Weidman. I am not basing this on memory. I went back and checked.
Pro Argument 5) Clowning is his style. True, however, when Anderson clowns he always counterstrikes in between his taunts to keep his opponents off of him. He did not counterstrike once in this fight. Not once. Even on the ground, he on used his Jujitsu to escape. He throw one soft up kick that missed by a mile, and that was is as far as string goes. He has never fought like that before. It is possible that it he was simply pushing the envelope, but pushing the envelope to the point where you know you will be knocked out is tantamount to throwing the fight.
Pro Argument 6) It was a calculated tactical decision. Maybe, but again, why was he not counterstriking? Weidman left plenty of openings.
Pro Argument 7) Silva let Weidman hit him when he was on the ground. False, if you watched the replay of the knockout, Weidman connects with one (1) punch and then doesn't connect with any more of the punches he throws while Anderson is on his back. It looks like he is missing on purpose. The whole time Silva is "knocked out," he is defending with his hands lazily. The reason why I think that Weidman may have been in on it is this: When Silva is on his back, Weidman jumps on him and starts throwing hooks that miss completely. Anyone who has any kind of MMA training is told to throw down punches when an opponent is on the ground. Why wasn't Weidman throwing punishing down punches? Why was he missing with hooks? One explanation is he was simply totally incompetent/lacked a killer instinct. Another, is that he know Anderson was going to go down.
On why he threw the fight:
I think there are three (3) possible reasons why he would have thrown the fight:
1) That he is old and wants to retire so he can spend time with his family. Evidence: his post-fight speech. His age.
2) Silva wants to fight Roy Jones, and under his current contract he can only do so by retiring and relinquishing his UFC fight. Or, by coming to an agreement with Dana White. Relating back to what I said in rebuttal to the legacy tarnishing argument. Roy Jones Jr. stated that he is "not surprised with Anderson Silva knockout loss at UFC 162 because 'he wants to do something else'" (Myers, pg 1) That something else, according to Anderson Silva is fight Roy Jones. Dana White even acknowledged this fact: "It's not that I'm necessarily interested in this, Anderson Silva's the greatest fighter of all time, you know, he's a guy who's never lost in the UFC, I respect him -- he wants to fight Roy Jones." (O'Reagan, pg 1)
3) That the fight was fixed as part of a negotiation between Silva and White. "Anderson Silva has talked for a long time about wanting to fight the boxing legend Roy Jones Jr, but the fight has always been ruled out by the UFC for contractual reasons - until now." (O'Reagan, pg 1). What has changed that White feels it is in the UFC's best interest to let Silva fight Roy Jones Jr? There is monetary motive. A super fight between Jon Jones and Silva or GSP and Silva would cost the UFC money. Sure, that fight would sell a ton of tickets, but if Jones wins people will say there is a weight advantage. His legacy has nothing to gain by beating a smaller fighter. If Silva wins, Jones legacy is tarnished. He is no longer invincible. As it stands right now, Weidman can headline a fight with another challenger while Silva goes off and fights Roy Jones. Then, they can rematch Silva against Weidman and sell a ton of tickets as Anderson makes a comeback late in his carrear. Once Silva wins, they can sell a tie break match. Meanwhile, Jones and GSP can serve as their own headliners that will put people in seats for two (2) separate UFC events. As a business man, I can promise you that Silva losing was the best thing for UFC's bottom line. I'm not saying I'm convinced it was a fix. I'm saying it is possible.
Thanks to my opponent for continuing to make great arguments.
Firstly, Weidman did not knock out Silva with a jab. Please, examine this picture (1). After Silva pretended to wobble, Weidman stepped forward with a right hand, then a right back fist (this is important) that forced Silva slightly off balance. Weidman then launched a left hook (1) not a jab that caught Silva square on the chin, knocking him out. For a gif of this combo, see (2). Weidman's right-hand, then right back fist set Silva off balance, forcing him to bend back and right as far as he could, where he was perfectly defenseless to a left hook, which Weidman unleashed. His eyes then rolled back in his head, his head bounced off the floor, and after some ground and pound by Weidman, it was declared over by referee Herb Dean. As Silva woke up he tried to grapple with Herb Dean. These are all clear signs of a knockout. Please watch the gif (2) in the sources and you'll see what I'm talking about.
To the contract status: He could retire, but once again in the post fight interview he said he would not. (3)
I concede the legacy argument. However, there is still no apparent good motive for him intentionally losing the fight. In the post-fight press conference, he says repeatedly he tried his best and respect should be given to Weidman. (4)
To my argument #4) I know he didn't throw any shots that could have hurt Weidman. However, part of his style is waiting for an opening to throw the big shots. He is probably the best counter-fighter there has ever been, therefore it makes sense he wouldn't try to hurt Weidman when he didn't see an opening.
To my argument #5) Please take a look at the FightMetric statistics (4). Silva landed 14 of 24 significant strikes for an accuracy rate of 58%. Weidman landed 16 of 43 significant strikes, for an accuracy rate of 37%. Silva struck back to the point that Weidman only hit him two times more than Silva hit Weidman. In round two alone, they both landed 5 significant strikes. To say Silva wasn't fighting back is simply inaccurate, as proven by these statistics.
To my argument #6) See above. It may not have seemed like he was counter-striking, but he was.
To my argument #9) I noticed this too actually. My thinking is that Weidman saw he was knocked out and did not want to hurt him more than he had to, as he's said before he has great respect for him (see post fight interview). That or he was so elated to see Silva go down he wasn't thinking clearly.
On why the fight was supposedly thrown:
Reason #1: This is once more disproved by both his post-fight interview and press conference, both of which he says he will not retire.
Reason #2: Once more, he has said he is not retiring. Roy Jones wasn't surprised because: "
"With Anderson, what I saw, was a guy who was playing because for so long now he's been wanting to box me," Jones said. "I don't even think the fight with this kid, Weidman, was on his mind. I think he was really out to show he had the razzle dazzle for his boxing goals because he tried to prove a point like, 'I've done this long enough, I want to see how I do at boxing.'" (5)
Reason #3: I don't understand how it would cost the UFC money. Think about it, if it would cost them money, why would Dana White always be talking about superfights? That doesn't make sense. I agree Silva losing has its advantages from a business standpoint, however the superfights could be sold as rematches as well, regardless of who wins.
I look forward to hearing my opponent's response!
1) That gif is a great reference point. A hook is probably a more appropriate label. I will concede that point. However, as far as hooks go, that wasn't exactly a particularly powerful one when you take into account Silva's body of work. He is a master at taking punches. Watch the videos in this article, and tell me if you think that shot he took in the ring looked like a punishing shot. Check out these hits that Silva takes: http://www.bloodyelbow.com...
2) Eyes roll back and head bounces on the floor. Yeah, true. Although, both are really easy to fake. You just have to look back, go limp, and fall. Fighters have been taking dives for years. I think Silva was just waiting to take a real shot so he could go down. Plus, even if he didn't go down on purpose, deciding not to cover up when he was coherent in MMA is the same a taking a dive in boxing. I think the fact that he has aware enough of his surroundings to catch Herb Dean from kicking him in the head speaks volumes.
3) He tried to grabble with Herb Dean. I feel very strongly that this is a misinterpretation of what happened. Herb Dean tripped over Silva, and Silva grabbed his foot to stop from getting kicked in the head. Then, he caught Dean, held him in place, and placed him back on the mat so that he wouldn't fall. Silva is extraordinarily aware of his surrounding for a dude that is knocked out. Furthermore, after that gif cuts out, Dean asks Silva if he is ok. Silva sits up and says, "Yeah, I'm fine." Almost never do you see a guy that gets knocked out cold wake up immediately, be aware of his surroundings, and coherent enough to speak a foreign language.
4) Post fight interview. He says, "I still have 10 fights left (on my contract)." He doesn't say he is going to fight 10 more fights. In an article with a Brazilian paper he states "I will retire within the next year." This loss gives him leverage to leave on his terms. As a title holder, he doesn't have any choice in who his opponents are. They are the hungriest, most dangerous fighters in his weight class. He has to train for those fights 6 days a week away from his family. As a former champ, he still gets paid lots of money to fight lesser opponents. Since his contract is pre-negotiated, he doesn't get paid more for fighting in a title fight. He only gets marginally more money winning those fights. Fighting, not for the title, as he says in the post fight interview, would allow him to spend less time training and more time teaching and spending time with his family. Those are the things he says, in the same interview, that he wants to focus on. Furthermore, non-title fights are only 3 rounds. Title fights are 5. Those extra two rounds require championship fighters to be in peak cardio shape. Silva could stop training right now and still beat the snot out of lesser fighters, cash the checks, and do it while having fun (i.e. without Sonnen/Weidman and such tackling him to the ground and beating in his face, even though he can still win the fight.)
5) Fight stats. Personally, I don't put any stock in fight stats. I know they play a big part in how fights are judged. But, Silva doesn't take fights to decision. And, even though Silva was scoring, he wasn't fighting. There is a difference. A big difference. The fact that he scored, doesn't mean that he was throwing knockout punches. And, throwing knockout punches is his style. Fighting to score isn't. If we were debating whether or not Frankie Edward threw a fight, I would concede this point. I don't think it applies to Silva though. Plus, no one watches Silva fight to see proper technique. They watch him because he murks people with copious amounts of swag.
6) He didn't throw big shots, because there weren't any openings. I believe there were openings. There was a point in the fight where Silva had him in a semi Muay Thai clench, with Weidman's hands occupied grappling, and Silva didn't throw any knees. Weidman was throwing punches left and right, leaving plenty of opportunities to counter-strike forcing Weidman to back up.
On why the fight was thrown:
1) Retiring as a motivation is not disproved by his post fight speech. Again, he doesn't say he is going to fight 10 more fights. He made the 10 fights on his contract comment as a way of evading Fear Factor's direct question about retiring. There is a good deal of grey area between retiring on the spot, and throwing a fight so he can retire from training like a title holder. I think he wants to retire from the grueling preparation, even if he fights a few more times to grow his retirement nest egg.
2) The argument that Silva was clowning around to prove a point is a good one. So is the arguments that it was a tactical decision. But, loosing the fight gives him the freedom to pursue the Roy Jones Jr. fight. Winning the fight would not have provided such freedom. So, if he REALLY wants to fight Roy Jones, as opposed to proving that he should be able to fight Roy Jones, loosing is a better tactic. It accomplishes the goal outright, by allowing Silva to rid himself of UFC's exclusivity hold over him. Winning the fight with ease, would only prove a theoretical point. Dana White would still be able to control his fight destiny. Furthermore, there appears to be a monetary benefit to getting out of his UFC contract. I was shocked when I realized this, but Silva only makes $200,000 per fight. Roy Jones Jr's average per fight purse was 10 to 12 million dollars, with his largest purse totaling 22 million dollars. Silva's NET WORTH is 10 million dollars. Comparatively, the UFC's wages pale in comparison to boxing wages. If he had won, and Dan White decided to let Silva fight Roy Jones in a boxing match. The UFC would take a large portion of that purse and HBO salary, because the UFC controls Silva contractually. It is more than conceivable that a Silva / Roy Jones Jr. fight would be worth more to Silva monetarily then the entirety of his remaining contract with the UFC. Pretty crazy huh?
3) Dana White is always talking about super fights, because the fans want to see super fights. He has to appear to want the same things that the fans want to continue to garner their support. But, often, his interests do not ally with the fans interests. Super fights are a perfect example. Ever wonder why super fights never seem to materialize? It is because they usually only benefit the fans, while they don't benefit the fighters or the institutions. Note Pacquiao/Mayweather.
1) I want to credit this point to Jblocks comment. I'm putting it in here, because I think it deserves consideration. Weidman did not act the way you would expect a young kid to act after he dethroned the greatest fighter of all time. Dana White accredited this to the fact that he is a classy kid. Weidman also said that he expected to win. But, even so, he seemed guilty to me. It is possible he was grappling with the fact that by winning he was embarrassing his childhood hero. But, its just another little detail that adds up to an overall feeling that the fight just didn't look right. So much so, that the first question from the press core in the post fight conference was about there being a fix.
1) Can you explain the moment in the fight where Silva appears to be psyching himself up to get hit in the face?
2) Why does he close his eyes when he taunts?
3) Why doesn't he want a rematch?
Fight from another angle:
Thanks to my opponent for his good sportsmanship. I'm hoping Silva takes an interview before we reach round 5 so we have more concrete evidence to work with.
1) This gif shows the same thing larger, so you can see it better (1). As I stated before, Silva's strategy is to roll with the punches, as in move in the same direction as the punches. The straight right, then the right back fist forced him to lean back as far as he could. At this point his head was well past his centre of gravity. When hit while bending backward at the waist, you can't absorb the force of the blow as well as in other positions. The hook may not seem really powerful, but it was accurate and landed when Silva was at his most vulnerable, leaning way back and to the right. For a more in depth explanation of why the hook knocked him out, read this article (2).
2) How would a real knockout look then? Under that logic a good portion of MMA knockouts could be fake. Besides, if he wanted to lose, why not just let Weidman pull off his attempted knee bar or heel hook? Why not "pretend" to be knocked out by Weidman's ground and pound?
3) After watching the gif I can see how you can think this, but he grabbed Herb Dean's leg and stuck his hand out as if to ward off any blows, kind of like how Forest Griffin did after Silva knocked him out. Griffin was then aware enough of his surroundings to know what happened and get up shortly. In both cases they were hit by a punch that while not too powerful, was accurate and caught them in the worst position, and they reacted in a similar manner (3). As to why he woke up speaking in English rather than Portuguese, I'm assuming Herb Dean asked him if he was okay in English and not Portuguese. "I'm okay." isn't really a hard phrase to remember.
4) Post fight interview: Joe Rogan asks him if he's going to retire, he says no. While he may have to face better opponents and train more, he could supposedly still beat them. If not why would he have to throw a fight he could have just lost? That doesn't make sense. As for the marginally less money to win, he would have gotten paid 200K(4) to win. Does that seem like a marginal amount, even for Silva?
5) Silva was still scoring, not missing kicks by "8 inches" as you previously stated. Once more, Silva isn't the kind to constantly be throwing knockout strikes, and if he does (such as against Leben) he does from the very beginning. He looks for openings while picking apart his opponents mentally. Look at his fight with Belfort. He didn't hurt him with any strikes before stunning him with the front kick to the face. It is logical to assume he was waiting for another opportunity like that with Weidman. Or watch this fight against Bonnar (5). In the clinch at the beginning Bonnar is constantly throwing knees and punches whereas Silva doesn't seem to fight back, until he starts to hit him with good shots and puts his back up to the cage and lets Bonnar hit him a few times without striking back with all his force like Bonnar. Bonnar got sloppy due to Silva's games, Silva saw an opening, and KO'd him with a great knee. He was waiting to do the same to Weidman, except his games didn't phase Weidman as much because he had been preparing for them, and a big opportunity never arose. Which leads into point 6.
6) There were openings in his other fights which he didn't take for the same reason as with Weidman. They were openings, but not great openings. And taking those openings would cause his opponent to be more wary, which would be counterproductive to his mind games, which he does to make his opponent get their guard down more and more as they exchange.
Reasons for why the fight was thrown:
1) This is as you said, an argument left up to interpretation. It's possible he didn't want to keep up the title fights, but to the point where he would intentionally lose a fight he could have won? I don't think he wanted to stop that badly.
2) That he was clowning around and being flashy to prove a point supports my theory that he got caught. Roy Jones was already in town to talk with Dana, supposedly about fighting Silva. Silva made 600K, not 200 in the Weidman fight (4). I agree that makes sense, however I don't believe Silva would intentionally lose a fight when he's not exactly starving. He's stated before he fights because he loves to, not for money. If he did want to lose, again, why not let Weidman submit him when he wanted to?
3) Dana White is a pretty frank guy, indeed his frankness is what often makes people dislike him. If he didn't want superfights or if they didn't make sense he would have likely said so. How would superfights cost UFC money? If the Roy Jones fight would make the UFC/Silva so much money, why not let him fight him in the first place?
I refer you to the gif (1). At the end, Weidman looks downright hysterical. Afterwards he calms down and seems to be in shock. In the post-fight press conference he stated he it still felt unreal to him. He was likely in a state of shock. What more do you want? According to this logic, if Weidman doesn't celebrate enough it was a fix, if he does celebrate Silva let him win. This is just interpretation. As to the first question being if the fight was fixed, many people were in shock. I personally was in shock. I never thought I would see Silva get knocked out. In fact, I started this debate to try to find answers as to why he was.
1) Could you please provide a video/gif of this moment? I don't recall it and can't find a video of the full fight. Since it "appears" to be something, it could be something else.
2) Again, can't find video of the full fight to be able to debate this. I remember him closing his eyes only when he wobbled, and then opening them as Weidman began to strike. As to why he would close his eyes, his usual mind games weren't getting to Weidman, so he had to amp it up.
3) Just because he doesn't want a rematch doesn't mean he intentionally lost. I can see how his lack of interest in a rematch would arouse suspicion. Perhaps he was tired and not totally focused. However, being tired and unfocused isn't the same thing as actively trying to lose.
I have a question of my own: Why not let Weidman knock him out with the ground and pound? Why not let him pull off the kneebar or the heel hook he attempted?
Thanks to my opponent for consistently making thought provoking arguments.
This has been fun THElittleRISK. I also hope Silva takes an interview before we reach round 5. I"d also love to revisit this debate in 6-8 months when Silva makes his next career move.
1) Silva may have actually been knocked out. I understand the analysis of the knockout, and I understand that perspective. It makes sense. Though personally, I think the facts that he wasn"t planted, that he was awake enough to catch the ref, that he has taken so many shots from better strikers, and that Weidman missed so many times outweighs the facts that his eyes rolling back, that his head hit the floor, and that it was an accurate strike. However, even if was was KO"d, it doesn"t mean he didn"t throw the fight. Letting Weidman knock him out counts as throwing the fight.
2) Why would Silva choose not to allow himself to get submitted, and then turn around and let himself get knocked out?
Whether or not he threw the fight, I know the answer to this question. Jujitsu for a Brazilian is more than a discipline. It is a lifestyle. It is tantamount to ones honor or ones soul. For a long time, people have underestimated Silva"s jujitsu. They tout his striking and his standup defense as unparalleled, the greatest of all time. But, it seems like every mediocre fighter he KO"s came into the fight with the slight advantage in Jujitsu, regardless of the fact that Silva hasn"t been submitted in over a decade. My buddy who watched the fight with me, said "I think he threw the fight. And, I think it is bada$$ that he refused to be submitted even though he knew he wasn"t trying to win. He wanted to go out with his strength, all the while refusing to compromise his perceived weakness, his jujutsu or his Brazilian pride." I should note, my buddy thinks he actually got knocked out. I think he was awake and aware the whole time. Either way, you can"t deny that choosing to throw a fight by taking a shot to the face takes big Brazilian nuts, even if most people find it immoral. If we know anything about Silva, it is that he is a crazy motherf****er and doesn"t do things in an orthodox manner. I think Silva knew he was doing something selfish, so he compensated for it by doing like a boss. You have to admit that getting KO"d from a shot to the face is the most bada$$ way to go out. Regardless of what is an easer flop to sell, I think the Brazilian culture surrounding submissions answers the why KO instead of submission. http://www.datelinebrazil.org...
3) I think we"ve explored this as far as we can. Both are valid perspectives.
4) I think your misunderstanding the monetary compensations associate with winning and loosing. If he won this fight he would have gotten a total of 800K (600k for fighting, 200k for winning) and assuming he fights Roy Jones next an additional 600k for fighting and possible 200k for winning. The UFC would take the rest of the money since the UFC has pre-negotiated his per fight salary. That is how UFC contracts work. You get paid a base salary per fight, and a bonus for winning. Those numbers are worked out in advance. That is why Weidman on got 50k (25k for fighting, 25k for winning). Now, by loosing, Silva can opt out of his contract with the UFC and negotiate a new contract with the WBA, pocketing the 200K from loosing to Weidman and W76;10 million from the Roy Jones fight. Therefore, the difference is a max of $800,000 for beating Weidman and beating Roy Jones Jr vs. $10,200,000 for loosing to Weidman and fighting Roy Jones Jr. That estimate is erring on the cautious side. Giving the relative increase in WBL wages over the years since Roy Jones Jr last fought, it is probably a much greater difference. The point is that loosing is in Silva"s best interest monetarily. And, since he stated both before and after the fight that loosing to Weidman won"t affect his UFC legacy and that wants to focus on his students and his family, it seems pretty clear that loosing was in his best interest. For the sake out our debate, it doesn"t matter how he lost, only that he did so on purpose. Maybe he really did get KO"d, but if he allowed Weidman to KO him that means he threw the fight. When you put together this incentive with his strange pre-fight and post-fight comments, it paints a picture of an Anderson Silva that didn"t seem to have any interest in winning this fight. Deciding not to win, is the same thing as deciding to loose. Ipso facto, he threw the fight. How he threw the fight is a is not quite as clear as the fact that he did throw the fight. As you pointed out, Roy Jones Jr. said, "the fight with Weidman wasn"t on his mind." Let"s say Silva went into the fight with the intention of not fighting hard, and instead just clowning around. He knew Weidman was a very good fight. It is reasonable for Silva to expect that Weidman would beat him. And, when it started to become clear that Weidman wasn"t coming as close to beating him as Silva would have like, he started being even more ridiculous and giving Weidman opportunities that were so great that Weidman would have had to be incompetent not to capitalize on. Behaving in that fashion, is throwing the fight. It didn"t need to be scripted to be thrown. Anderson could have actually been KO"d and still thrown the fight. I think it is clear that Silva didn"t go in with the intention to win. The extent to which he let Weidman win is debatable. But, he let Weidman win.
5)There are a number of points that I make that don"t stand up on their own as evidence that the fight were thrown. These points are: Weidman"s post fight reaction, Silva"s iron chin, the apparent lack of force in the KO punch, Weidman missing punches while mounted on Silva, Silva appearing not to counterstrike, Silva clowning around to the point of absurdity, Silva"s pre-fight interviews, and Silva"s post-fight interviews. While non of these points stand on their own as proof, the entirety of these points in combination with the clear monetary incentive for Silva to lose to Weidman and Silva"s lack of enthusiasm for continuing to fight in the UFC do paint a picture in which it appears more likely that Silva threw the fight than that he did not throw the fight. I can"t prove it was a fix. You can"t prove it wasn"t. The question is what does the evidence suggests is more likely. I feel strongly that Silva chose to loose the fight before he entered the octagon is the most likely explanation for what we saw at UFC 162.
Silva walking sideways. It is in this recap clip. You can"t see his mouth move, but he says come on then waves at Weidman: http://www.mmajunkie.com...
I agree that we should have this debate again in 6-8 months as more things arise.
1) I managed to find an article from Herb Dean's perspective: "It was almost a replay of the pantomime that he had done," he said. "I saw him go down. I respond to it whether it's pantomime or not, but to be honest, I wasn't sure. But I'm going to respond and get in close to get a better look. Once I got in there and got a better look, he was unconscious to me."(1) Herb Dean, who was in the ring testifies that Silva was unconscious. It's easy to see how some people think he wasn't, as Herb Dean first thought he was taunting. I agree that just because he was knocked out doesn't mean he couldn't have thrown the fight, but it puts to rest the dive theory at least and makes it more probable that he didn't throw the fight.
2) Your jujitsu argument makes sense, and I agree it would be a ballsy move for him to allow himself to get knocked out if he did. That being said, he could have let Weidman KO him with ground and pound. That makes more sense than letting Weidman defeat him at his near-mythical stand-up game.
3) I agree on that.
4) Thanks for clarifying the money motive, that seems the best of all the theories. I don't think he didn't have any interest in winning. If he didn't he wouldn't have tried his antics to mess with Weidman's head. Weidman came pretty closer than a lot of Silva fans (including me) thought he would to beating him in the first round, he took him down and did good work and attempted good submissions. This caused Silva to start trying his mind games. When they didn't work as they had with other fighters, he simply increased them more than ever seen. That is why he acted in such a way. Was it the best Anderson Silva ever preformed? Absolutely not. Did he go in with a mindset of letting Weidman win? Totally different.
5) Weidman's post fight reaction I explained before. He was elated the moment he knocked Silva out, in shock afterwards. That's another thing open to interpretation, but the case is pretty clear in my opinion. How Silva got knocked out I also thoroughly explained before and Herb Dean even said that he was. Herb Dean has seen countless fighters knocked out. I think he's as good an expert on the subject as any. Weidman's missing punches I also explained before, as they could be either nerves or he saw Silva was knocked out. Silva did counterstrike, as shown by FightMetric, he was waiting for an opening most likely. Silva's clowning didn't get to Weidman as much as it did to other fighters, so he amped it up. As for the walking sideways, that looks to me to be more taunting.
In conclusion, I believe the fight was neither fixed not thrown. As my opponent stated before, neither one of us can definitively prove our cases. After examining the evidence, particularly the evidence during the fight I believe Silva was legitimately, unintentionally knocked out, and I hope you believe so too.
Please provide in-depth reasons for your voting, both me and masterdebater1987 put a lot of time and effort in this debate and deserve it. Everyone has an opinion on this, but try to read the debate in an objective mindset and then vote accordingly.
This has been a great debate. I've had a lot of fun, and I think we have covered pretty much all the avenues that exist up to this point in time. Goodluck to THElittleRisk! I look forward to seeing the results.
1) I think the pre-fight Silva interviews, the post-fight interviews, and Silva's general attitude towards this fight provide a foundation in which Silva clearly wasn't trying to win and didn't bring his A-Game.
2) I think Silva's contract status, his desire to spend more time with his family and students, his self professed disinterest in any UFC super fights, and his desire to box Roy Jones Jr. offer an understandable and verifiable motive for throwing the fight.
3) The fact that Silva stated that he was not concerned that loosing to Weidman would negatively affect his legacy, removes the primary motive for wanting to win the fight.
4) The extent to which Silva 'clowned' around, the absence of any dangerous counterstrikes, Weidmans numerous missed hooks while mounted on Silva, the fact that Silva appeared to be awake while on the ground, Dana White's insistence that this was a great fight, Weidman's lack of enthusiasm, and Silva's disinterest in ever fighting for the belt again create a clear image of a fight that just didn't seem honest.
The details of the fix are not clear, but the evidence suggests that it is more likely that Silva threw the fight than that he unintentionally lost. I want to thank all of you who have read through this lengthy debate, and all of you who commented on this debate. You helped guide our arguments and complete our analysis. Finally, I want to thank my opponent. Can't wait to see who won.
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