The Instigator
Yusuf94
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Emilrose
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Antisemitism can be justified by Torah

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Emilrose
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/23/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,669 times Debate No: 63801
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (34)
Votes (1)

 

Yusuf94

Pro

I will prove that "Antisemitism" or prejudice against Jews is something which God warned Jews in Torah. I will start my debate with Introductions.

(1) Antisemitism:

Antisemitism may be manifested in many ways, ranging from expressions of hatred of or discrimination against individual Jews to organized violent attacks by mobs, state police, or even military attacks on entire Jewish communities. Although the term did not come into common usage until the 19th century, it is now also applied to historic anti-Jewish incidents. Notable instances of persecution include the pogroms which preceded the First Crusade in 1096, the expulsion from England in 1290, the massacres of Spanish Jews in 1391, the persecutions of the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion from Spain in 1492, Cossack massacres in Ukraine of 1648–1657, various pogroms in Imperial Russia between 1821 and 1906, the 1894–1906 Dreyfus affair in France, the Holocaust in German-occupied Europe, official Soviet anti-Jewish policies and Arab and Muslim involvement in the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...

(2) Origins of Jews:

Abraham was called by God to settle in a land which was already settled by the descendants of Canaan, but God promised it to Abraham and his descendants. Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael and Jews are the descendants of Isaac, the two sons of Abraham.

The Israelites were a Semitic people of the Ancient Near East, who inhabited part of Canaan. The term "Israelites" is the English term (derived from the ancient Greek) for the Hebrew biblical term Bnei Yisrael which properly translates as either "Sons of Israel" or "Children of Israel", and refers both to the direct descendants of the patriarch Jacob as well as the historical populations of the United Kingdom of Israel and Judah. In the post-exilic period, beginning in the 5th century BCE, the two known remnants of the Israelite tribes came to be referred to as Jews and Samaritans, inhabiting the territories of Judea, Galilee and Samaria. Other terms sometimes used include the "Hebrews" and the "Twelve Tribes" (of Israel).
The Israelite story begins with some of the culture heroes of the Jewish people, the Patriarchs. The Torah traces the Israelites to the patriarch Jacob, grandson of Abraham, who was renamed Israel after a mysterious incident in which he wrestles all night with an angel. Jacob's twelve sons (in order of birth), Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin, become the ancestors of twelve tribes, with the exception of Joseph, whose two sons Mannasseh and Ephraim, who were adopted by Jacob, become tribal eponyms (Genesis 48).

Torah (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "Instruction", "Teaching"), or what is often referred to in English as Pentateuch, is the central concept in the religious Judiac tradition. It has a range of meanings: it can most specifically mean the first five books of the twenty four books of the Tanakh; it usually includes the rabbinic commentaries in it; the term Torah means instruction and offers a way of life for those who follow it; it can mean the continued narrative from Genesis to the end of the Tanakh; it can even mean the totality of Jewish teaching, culture and practice. Common to all these meanings, Torah consists of the foundational narrative of the Jewish people: their call into being by God, their trials and tribulations, and their covenant with their God, which involves following a way of life embodied in a set of religious obligations and civil laws (Halakha).
Torah's first five books:

Genesis: "origin" (Hebrew: Bereshit - "In the beginning")
Exodus: "going out" (Hebrew: Shemot - "Names")
Leviticus: "relating to the Levites" (Hebrew: Vayikra, - "And he called")
Numbers: numbering of the Israelites (Hebrew: Ba Midbar - "In the wilderness")
Deuteronomy: "second law" (Hebrew: D'varim - "Words"
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...

(4) Jews as the chosen people:

In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jews are the chosen people, chosen to be in a covenant with God. This idea is first found in the Torah (the first five books of the Tanakh, which are also included in the Christian Bible) and is elaborated on in later books of the Hebrew Bible. Much is written about these topics in rabbinic literature. The three largest Jewish denominations—Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judiasm and Reform Judaism—maintain the belief that the Jews have been chosen by God for a purpose.
According to the Israel Democracy Institue, approximately two thirds of Israeli Jews believe that Jews are the "chosen people".
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...


Now, moving further with my argument. We believe that God has chosen the Jews. Christians and Muslims also believe in the notion, Bible and Qur'an testify that Jews have been chosen by God.

"O children of Israel, remember my favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I favored you above all creation. (Qur'an 2:47)"

Jews are chosen people but chosen for what? Certainly race is not the reason because common beliefs signify that God is not a rasict. Jews were chosen for a purpose and that purpose is given in Torah. In the second book of the Bible called Exodus, Moses is made to say.

Exodus 19:5-6 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people; For all the earth is mine. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."

That is the purpose they were chosen for, Jews are supposed to be a kingdom of priests, to guide mankind to the knowledge of God. That was the purpose why God chose Jews. But Jews are done away with their role. Now whatever happened to them for the past 2000 years is on account that Jews have lost that Purpose.

And then God says to Jews, if they do not carry out the duties imposed upon Jews for making them the Chosen people..

Leviticus 26:18 "And after all this, if you do not obey Me, I will punish you seven times more for your sins"

Anybody else, commits one crime will get one punishment in return. But for Jews God says "I will punish you SEVEN TIMES MORE for your sins".
It's nobody else, it's God warning Jews in their own book of "Authority". And then God says..

Leviticus 26:21 "Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins."

Refering to the Jews, then God says..

Leviticus 26:28 "Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins."

I am not sure when Hitler incinerated 6 million Jews, it was six times or seven times. But this is according to the Promise made by God to Jews, to their nation. That if they go contrary to His will this is the punishment in store for Jews.

Then God warns the Jews in their own Holy Bible. In the last and final will of Moses, in the book of Deuteronomy which is fifth book. Moses speaking..

Deuteronomy 28:68 "And the Lord shall bring thee into egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you."

God says though He have freed Jews from Egypt(Exodus), He promises Jews that he will bring them back into egypt again. And their they will be sold as slaves.
Only once Jews have been in bondage so far that was in Exodus. God promises Jews a second time, a second bondage for them. "No man shall buy you", Jews will be worthless that no men will want to own them.

In next round I will point out, how Jews have failed in their Purpose.
Emilrose

Con

Accepted. Thanks to Yusef94 for initiating this debate, and for selecting me as his opponent.

I'll begin by providing the definitions of the term "anti-Semitism" and "justified". Note that the resolution states: Antisemitism can be justified by Torah.

In his opening argument Pro that states: "I will prove that "Antisemitism" or prejudice against Jews is something G-d warned Jews in Torah". Which is a slight change on the resolution that uses the term "justified" instead of "warned"--the two words have inherently different meanings and are both used in seperate ontext in the title resolution and opening argument.

There is a large difference in justification of anti-Semitism by the Torah and G-d warning the Jews about anti-Semitism. I would agree that in the Torah there are certain warnings for Jews concerning future mistreatment; however, anti-Semitism in itself is not justified by the Jewish holy book.

an•ti-Sem•i•tism

n.

discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.


(1.)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

jus·ti·fy

v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies

v.tr.

1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.

2. To declare free of blame; absolve.

3. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

4. Law.

(2.)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

As you can see with the definition of "justifaction"--it essentially suggests "free of blame" in action.

Now, I will outline my opening argument:


History of anti-Semitism

Indeed Pro is correct in his Wikipedia inclusion that the term "anti-Semitism" first gained use in 1873--coined by German political agitator Wilhem Marr.

However, Pro has centred his debate around the religious aspects to anti-Semitism, but to assess the term and the history of anti-jewish agenda one has to include the fact that "anti-Semitism" attempts to define the Jews as a race--not just a religious group. Likewise much of the anti-Jewish events in history have occurred because people have indentified the Jews as an ethnic race, Nazi Germany in particular adopted this outlook. Not only were Jews associated with the religion of Judaism, but they were also considered an inferior ethnic creed.

If religion had been the biggest issue in Nazi Germany (and other parts of Europe) during the Second World War, then people as indetified as having Jewish blood (I.E one Jewish parent, or Jewish grandparents/great grandparents) would have been excluded. The fact is that even non-practicing Jews faced persecution, because once again, they were considered a race; one that was inferior and to be treated as such.


The example of this is when Nazi Germany authorised the Nuremberg race laws in 1935. Such laws excluded German Jews from Reich citizenship and even excluded Jews from marrying or having sexual relations with persons of "German or related blood". The Nuremberg laws did not the define the Jews exclusively as a religious group, on the contrary, anyone with Jewish relatives or Jewish with some form of Jewish connection. Germans that had not identify as being Jewish or who had not practiced the religion of Judaism for years were too sent into camps and targeted under the Nazi regime. This includes Jews who had converted to Christianity.

The artistic illustrations of Jews that were displayed in German, and other European news publications, offers proof of this. Jews were commonly depicted as unattractive, mercenary, and racially inadequate individuals.


The Holocaust was in fact a case of not "religious" cleansing but "ethnic" cleasning. An estimated six million Jews were killed not exclusively because of their affiliation to Judaism but rather of perceived racial identity. Another significant justification was the associated blame of Jews for the economic issues facing Germany; which was largely unfounded.

This again highlights that anti-Jewish attitutes and behaviours are not entirely connected to Judaism, or the Torah. Throughout history the Jewish people have endured persecution for a number of reasons. As well as the preconceived notion of ethnic identity, other such forms of Jewish opposition have included: alleged financial, industrial, and media influence, seemingly disproportionate success, negative public opinion, and in terms of historical persecution--the death of Jesus. In fact this particular opinion was focal in persecution of Jews throughout Roman development of Christianity and then later the Middle Ages. Fortunately, many the above stated things have since decreased and more tolerant attitutes prevailed. In terms of modern times, the situation relating to Israel and Palestine has been a predominant contribution to anti-Semitism and modern day unfavorable opinion of Jews.

Once again, none of the elements are related to the Torah or indeed any teachings within it.

Alluding to earlier anti-Semitic periods such as the Crusades, other religious groups (primarily Islamic) were also targeted. So the connection isn't quite made to the Torah and the religion of Judaism alone.

Torah Reference

Indeed certain predictions and future prophecies concerning Jewish suffering are madeHowever, such verses are not outlined as justification for anti-Semitism; rather they are just examples of the attitudes Jewish people may face. I will use rebuttals for round two but rather there's just one included verse I'd like to clarify.


In Devarim 28:68 (Deuteronomy) where it states: "And the L-rd shall bring thee into Egypt again with your ships, by the way whereof I speak unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall e sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you".

The actual context of this chapter in Devarim is a description of requirements for the Jewish people and what could potentially happen if they are not fulfilled. Note that the Jews were not sold in Egypt as slaves for a second time.

As for your interpretation: "Jews will be worthless that no men will want to buy them". On the contrary, the verse in Devarim 28:68 could imply added worth and added expense--this certainly coincides with the historical context of Egyptian slavery.

Throughout the Torah G-ds commitment and devotion to the Jewish people is consistently underlined. In the very same chapter of Devarim, it states:

28:2: "And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the L-rd thy G-d".

28:3: "Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field".

28:5: "Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store".

28:8: "The L-rd shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the L-rd thy G-d giveth thee".

28:12 "The L-rd shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow".

Concerning the "Chosen People" reference, it should be noted that Jews were not exclusively chosen just for a purpose. It's useful to look into the full context of "chosen people", the suggestion is that the Hebrews, prior to the receiving of the Torah on Mount Sinai and entering the land of Israel, were a moral and good people--naturally this would too be paramount in the giving of Israel and selecting of the Jews as a people to inhabit the land and serve G-d. One has to assess exactly why the Jews had this innate connection and why they were chosen above others to be representitives of G-d. After all, it was not the Egyptians, Greeks or any other ancient creed that was chosen to breathe G-ds word and receive his land--rather, it was the Jews. This shows that G-d had faith in the Jews and knew that they could fulfill his wishes. Otherwise, they would have simply not been chosen.

Sources:

(1.) http://www.religioustolerance.org...

(2.) http://www.simpletoremember.com...

(3.) http://www.ushmm.org...

(4.) http://www.yadvashem.org...


(5.) http://www.sacred-texts.com...

Debate Round No. 1
Yusuf94

Pro

Please do not show any new 'Contradictions' because I cannot refute them, because this is my first & last rebuttal.

Before I'd go to my rebuttal I want to point out how my resolution and my opening argument are the same thing as one and Con herself proved it .

Con states that "There is a large difference in justification of anti-Semitism by the Torah and G-d warning the Jews about anti-Semitism."
"I would agree that in the Torah there are certain warnings for Jews concerning future mistreatment; however, anti-Semitism in itself is not justified by the Jewish holy book."

Now after reading Con's first and second statements read this.

Antisemitism is something which God warned Jews in Torah and can be justified by Torah or Torah's verses. And then read the verses I stated in previous round.

I am sure I don't need to elaborate about my resolution and opening argument any further.


REBUTTALS


"However, Pro has centred his debate around the religious aspects to anti-Semitism, but to assess the term and the history of anti-jewish agenda one has to include the fact that "anti-Semitism" attempts to define the Jews as a race--not just a religious group."

I agree with Con. In the previous round I stated the "Origins of Jews" in which it's mentioned that "The Israelites were a Semitic people". If God warned Jews in their book of authority about Anti-Semitism then it is restricted to them. Now let's analyse the meaning of Semitic.
"Today, the word "Semite" may be used to refer to any member of any of a number of peoples of ancient Middle East including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews (Jews), Arabs, and their descendants."
Read more about semitic people(http://en.wikipedia.org...)
But Anti-Semitic notions were towards Jews and not Arabs. So attempts to define Jews as a race cannot possibly relate to Anti-Semitic notions if one considers the exact text book definitions. So in order to understand the subject properly one needs to consider the following points.
1) Torah is a book of Authority for Jews only.
2) Anti-Semitism is something god promised Jews if they don't follow his will.(Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:28)
3) Anti-Semitism cannot be related to race because being Jew is not a race.


"The Holocaust was in fact a case of not "religious" cleansing but "ethnic" cleasning. An estimated six million Jews were killed not exclusively because of their affiliation to Judaism but rather of perceived racial identity."

Again I agree with Con but there is no point of such statements in this debate. Whether it was "religious" or "ethnic" either way Jews were massacred by a very large number. The motive behind the killings has no relevance because evidently Goddidn't tell hitler or others who shared anti-semitic notions to commit such an act.

When God promised Jews in Leviticus "Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins." then he didn't mention anywhere in Torah that he will be creating "Religious motives" pricisely.
Even If he did then I ask Con to provide that particular verse and maybe then her statement will have some relevance. Hence Con's all invalid claims such as "This again highlights that anti-Jewish attitutes and behaviours are not entirely connected to Judaism, or the Torah." are in vain.


"Note that the Jews were not sold in Egypt as slaves for a second time."
Con misunderstood my claim.

As it's evident that I never mentioned that Jews were sold as slaves for the second time. I said "God promises Jews a second time, a second bondage for them.". God promised Jews the land of canaan and the prophecy was fulfilled even now Jews are living in Israel. Similarly, I believe that Jews believe in their lord, so they can't deny God's promise. It didn't happen yet doesn't necessarily means it will never happen, if Jews don't fulfill their purpose.

Having said that it didn't happen in egypt though but I want to point it out. "Based on questionable numbers from Josephus, it has been estimated that the Romans vanquish of the Galilee resulted with 100,000 Jews killed or sold into slavery" First Jewish–Roman War. Vespasian's campaign.

Another example can be given after the Hebrews had began to settle in many African countries mainly on the west and east coast(Egypt), The Arab slave trade started, where Hebrews were led captive into all the Arab countries (Arabia, so called mid east and North Africa). Arab Slavery started 1000 years before the European slave trade.

Anyway even if these events don't resemble the prophecy. It will happen maybe in future indeed as God promised to them, that is if Jews believe in their book of authority.


"As for your interpretation: "Jews will be worthless that no men will want to buy them". On the contrary, the verse in Devarim 28:68 could imply added worth and added expense--this certainly coincides with the historical context of Egyptian slavery."

Deuteronomy 28
Are Curses for Disobedience
"15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today,all these curses will come on you and overtake you:
16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country."

Now, the verses preceding Deuteronomy 28:68
"66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see."

It's clear from the context that Lord is not praising the "added worth" instead he is cursing if Jews don't obey, which implies the term"worthless" instead.


"Throughout the Torah G-ds commitment and devotion to the Jewish people is consistently underlined. In the very same chapter of Devarim"

God's "commitment" and "devotion" only if they obey.

These verses are under Deuteronomy 28
Are Blessings for Obedience:
"28:2
28:3
28:5
28:8
28:12"
However Anti-semitism is not for obedience else it wouldn't be "Anti-Semitism".



"Jews were not exclusively chosen just for a purpose."

In Exodus 19:
"1 On the first day of the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on that very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai.
2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain. 3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself."
Then in Exodus 19:
"5
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,
6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

Which suggests clearly that Jews were exclusively chosen for a "purpose".



"the suggestion is that the Hebrews, prior to the receiving of the Torah on Mount Sinai and entering the land of Israel, were a moral and good people"

For that from Deuteronomy, Moses himself Cursing Jews
"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"


"This shows that G-d had faith in the Jews and knew that they could fulfill his wishes. Otherwise, they would have simply not been chosen."


And again instead, the emphasis falls on the idea that the Jewish people were chosen to receive the laws of Torah. Duties, to fulfill a mission rather than to take on entitlements and privileges. Chosenness is about accepting, an ethical “light unto the nations” (Isaiah 42:6).
It would be a perversion of the idea of election if it were turned into an argument in support of unequal treatment for the non-elect. But their special status was conditioned upon obeying God, standing for truth and establishing peace and justice on earth, "kingdom of priests and a holy nation".



Quoting
verses out of Torah(Consideration depends on Con)


"DANIEL 9:11 - YEA ALL ISRAEL, HAVE TRANSGRESSED YOUR LAW, EVEN BY DEPARTING THAT THEY MIGHT NOT OBEY YOUR VOICE. THEREFORE, THE CURSE IS POURED UPON US, AND THE OATH THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE LAW OF MOSES THE SERVANT OF YHWH, BECAUSE WE HAVE SINNED AGAINST HIM."

"HOSEA 4:6 -- MY PEOPLE (Israel) ARE DESTROYED FOR THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE: BECAUSE YOU HAVE REJECTED KNOWLEDGE, I WILL ALSO REJECT YOU, THAT YOU SHALL BE NO PRIEST TO ME: SEEING YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN THE LAW OF YOUR HOLY ONE, I WILL ALSO FORGET YOUR CHILDREN."

"LUKE 21: 22-24 FOR THESE BE THE DAYS OF VENGEANCE, THAT ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED (Lev 26 Deut 28)"

"EZEKIEL 16:25 YOU HAVE BUILD YOUR HIGH PLACE AT EVERY HEAD OF THE WAY (corner), AND HAVE MADE YOUR BEAUTY TO BE DESPISED, AND HAVE OPENED YOUR FEET TO EVERY ONE THAT PASSED BY, AND MULTIPLIED YOUR WHOREDOM."

"Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie."

Are all these prophets Anti-Semites? They hate Jews & they Hate themselves?
Emilrose

Con

Note that providing "contradictions" or rather "rebuttals" is simply part of a debate--perhaps Pro should have chosen more rounds in order to refute further arguments.

Likewise, before I outline my rebuttals, I'd like to clarify that Pro's resolution and (beginning) of opening argument are not directly the same thing. He may believe in essence that they have the same meaning but in literal and definitional terms they do not.

I'll state once again that "justification" and "warning" are two different words with two different meanings. If the Torah was to justify anti-Semitism, it would require that it outlines valid examples of why "expressions of hatred" or "discrimination against individual Jews" or "orgainized violent attacks by mobs, state police, or even military attacks on entire Jewish communities" are justified in reasoning and action.

A verse from Parshah Bereishit 12:3 (Genesis) easily refutes such a suggestion: “I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed”.

Here we have an example of G-ds loyality towards Abram and his people--and in fact endorses the "blessing" of Jews. On the contrary to encouraging anti-Semitism or any forms of hatred towards the Jews--it is completely discouraged.


Once more it should be highlighted that prophecy is not the same as justification. In round one I outline the dictionary definition of justification--so one can clearly see it has a different meaning. Moreover, the: "Antisemitism is something which God warned Jews in Torah and can be justified by Torah or Torah's verses" is Pro's comment and not mine. I specifically state that the two terms are different in meaning.

Rebuttals

"I agree with Con. In the previous round I stated the "Origins of Jews" in which it's mentioned that "The Israelites were a Semitic people". If God warned Jews in their book of authority about Anti-Semitism then it is restricted to them. Now let's analyse the meaning of Semitic".

As I provided a dictionary definition of the term "anti-semitic" in round one, it's largely unnecessary to present another Wikipedia definition and delve into the historical and geographical context of the term. This neither defending your argument or outlining reasons as to why anti-Semitism is justified by the Torah.

"But Anti-Semitic notions were towards Jews and not Arabs. So attempts to define Jews as a race cannot possibly relate to Anti-Semitic notions if one considers the exact text book definitions".

The point was to establish that "anti-Semitism"--the term and the movement--was an attempt to define the Jews as a race. This was supported when I stated that the term of "anti-Semitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr in 1873. This lead to the subsequent movement of anti-Semitism (I.E the Nazi Regime) which absolutely did consider the Jews as an (inferior) ethnic creed.

In this case, attempts to define the Jews as a race absolutely do relate to anti-Semitic notions. For another example, the Nuremberg race laws are classified as "anti-Semitic".

"Whether it was "religious" or "ethnic" either way Jews were massacred by a very large number. The motive behind the killings has no relevance because evidently Goddidn't tell hitler or others who shared anti-semitic notions to commit such an act".

This was an example to convey that much anti-Semitism has been based not entirely on religious affliation but the perceived racial identity of the Jewish people. In addition, this was also to show that hatred directed towards the Jews is not excluseivly related to G-d or as you stated in round one: "The Jews failing the purpose" to G-d.

Any person that believes in G-d (whether Jewish, Christian, Islamic etc.) or otherwise, would agree that sometimes things happen that are beyond our understanding--the Holocaust was one of those. The majority of Jewish people hold the firm opinion that it was not an act of G-d or any form of punishment from him--such as you're implying--but the cruel and completely unjustifiable act of man. The implication that the Holocaust is somehow justification for alleged "failure of purpose" is an insult to the many Jewish people that kept the Torah and maintained their belief in G-d during this horrific period.

Moreover, in no way did the Holocaust spell the end for the Jewish people. On the contrary to destroying the Jews--which was the aim--large numbers of Jewish people returned to Israel, which at the time was
80% barren, to make a strong and prosperous nation. If the Jews had really "failed their purpose", they would have never returned to Israel as it is predicted in the Torah.

For the first time in 2000 years the Jewish people finally had their own country and could finally establish sovereign governance over the holy land. This confirms that the covenant with G-d has been fully maintained by both sides.

Examples of this covenant are found here:

Yesha'yahu 49:13 (Isaiah) "Shout for joy, O heavens; rejoice, O earth; burst into song, O mountains! For the L-RD comforts his people and will have compassion on his afflicted ones".

Yechezkel 34:13 (Ezekiel) "I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land".


Yirmiyahu 32:44 (Jeremiah) "Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Binyamim, in villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the L-RD".

Yesha'yahu 66:8 (Isaiah) "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Yesha'yahu 43:21 (Isaiah) "The people which I formed for Myself, that they might tell of My praise."

Yesha'yahu 35:1 (Isaiah) "The wilderness and the parched land shall be glad; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose."

Yesha'yahu 35:2 (Isaiah) "It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice, even with joy and singing; the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon; they shall see the glory of the L-RD, the excellency of our G-d.



Futher Rebuttals


"Con misunderstood my claim".

Indeed the claim was not misunderstood. I was merely stating that the verse did not come true--therefore the platform of being sold in Egypt for a second time was not provided by the Jewish people.

"As it's evident that I never mentioned that Jews were sold as slaves for the second time. I said "God promises Jews a second time, a second bondage for them.". God promised Jews the land of canaan and the prophecy was fulfilled even now Jews are living in Israel. Similarly, I believe that Jews believe in their lord, so they can't deny God's promise. It didn't happen yet doesn't necessarily means it will never happen, if Jews don't fulfill their purpose."

Here you have actually contradicted your initial argument. In conclusion of round one, you state:
"Jews have failed their purpose" yet here you use the term: "If the Jews don't fail their purpose". Which indicates that you're not decided on whether the Jews have or have not actually failed their purpose. In both arguments, you have changed from the Jews (definitively) failing their purpose to it being a possibility of them failing their purpose--or not failing their purpose. Which is, as stated, a contradiction.

As for a second bondage in Egypt, this verse was outlined over 3000 years ago-yet has still not occurred. The point was that this means that the Jewish people have not set the precedent for a second period of slavery within Egypt. I.E-- The fact that it has not happened proves that the Jews have not given just cause for it to happen.

Once more your second example specifically states: "based on questionable numbers" and not does outline any Egyptian form of slavery. The statement of: "killed or sold into slavery" also proves that the facts are not definitive.

"Anyway even if these events don't resemble the prophecy. It will happen maybe in future indeed as God promised to them, that is if Jews believe in their book of authority."

In order for the examples to be valid they have to resemble the prophecy, otherwise they bare no relevance to the debate. The fact it there is no recorded examples of the prophecy coming true according to context it is stated in within Devarim 28:68.

"Which suggests clearly that Jews were exclusively chosen for a "purpose"."

The contention was not the Jews were not chosen for a "purpose"--but that within the "purpose", are also reasons why G-d saw the Jews as fit for fullfilling this duty. Obviously the Jews (prior to receiving the Torah) had proven capability towards G-d. After all, to be "chosen" requires some form of ability.


"It would be a perversion of the idea of election if it were turned into an argument in support of unequal treatment for the non-elect. But their special status was conditioned upon obeying God, standing for truth and establishing peace and justice on earth, "kingdom of priests and a holy nation".

Within my response I stated nothing about "unequal treatment for the non-elect". Once again, I was simply looking at the full context of "chosen" and exactly what it entails. Naturally the Jews are expected to obey G-d in being chosen--as Jewish people have and continue to do just that. In no way did I imply or attempt at peversion of the meaning of "chosen". I was simply assessing reasons as to why the Jews would be chosen and how they must have proven something in order to be chosen. The requirements upon being chosen are of course obvious within the covenant.

In conclusion of round two you also use Luke, which is Christian New Testament scripture and not part of the Torah.


(1.) http://www.mechon-mamre.org...

(2.) http://www.mechon-mamre.org...

Debate Round No. 2
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Yusuf94 2 years ago
Yusuf94
When your sins, your ugly deeds, the bloodshed you caused, all will be revealed and when justice will be done indeed. The day of Resurrection, when truth will be upon us, when a sinner will not be able to run or hide. So you wait with us, we're waiting patiently for that day indeed!
Posted by yoshidino 2 years ago
yoshidino
"Thus saith YHVH, if heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Yisra'el for all that they have done, saith YHVH."
Yeremiyahu 31:37
"For thus saith YHVH of hosts, after the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye."
Zekharyah 2:8
"Therefore wait ye upon me, saith YHVH until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nation, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy."
tsephenyahu (Zephaniah) 3:8
whach out what yall say to a daughter of Israel! YHVH is still the Elohim of Yisra'el!
Posted by Yusuf94 2 years ago
Yusuf94
DavidMGold

Yeah, cause you're used to these insults since your high-school..pop-tart!
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
Yusuf, I could care less about your puerile insults or acrimony because you've clearly failed on your atrocious views time and again. Amazingly you try arguing about semantics decrying "wordplay" even though emilrose continually corrected your diversion.

@emilrose, great summation. The Haganah defeated the combined armies sent from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen in addition to irregular Arab units with aircraft and navies was truly a miraculous victory just as the victory of during 1967 in a span of only 6 days doubling it's territory.

Ezekiel 36:8-11 - "But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."

Ezekiel 36:5-7, 12 - Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with wholehearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country."' "Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations." Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised ,<b>My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.... My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children.</b>"

A prophecy fulfilled.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
Likewise, keep your insults to yourself.
Posted by Yusuf94 2 years ago
Yusuf94
Keep your lectures to yourself.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
Just because someone disagrees with you (or even votes against you) it does not make then "ugly" or a "SOB". As I've already said--you do nothing but humiliate yourself when using such terms.

In fact, boys the age of five probably have more maturity than you.

As for Israel, it is not experiencing peace as it continues to have terrorist organisations (like Hamas, Hezbollah) provoke war with it.

My main point was that Israel was somehow able to come into establishment in the first place and that by doing so numerous Tanakh prophecies were fulfilled because of that.

A land that was 80% barren (research it) was cultivated and a prosperous country was created. Moreover, despite the fact that Israel has been engaged in intermittent episodes of defence, it has never been defeated--nor will it.

In fact, in the very first day of its existence Israel was attacked by several Arab nations. A tiny country that had just been re-established WON, despite the fact it faced superior military opposition and combined armies.

And this was before American assistance.
Posted by Yusuf94 2 years ago
Yusuf94
DavidMGold

You're one ugly SOB!
Posted by Yusuf94 2 years ago
Yusuf94
@emil
Take hint from this.

You compose and frame a well structured debate with fine conduct and grammar.
But your logic sucks. Your arguments and counter-arguments are mere word play.
You don't have any idea what the term "convincing arguments" means.
In short your debate is well composed "crap".
With all due respect start writing poetry instead of debating.

Your accusations are fallacious.
My statement - "If Jews don't FULFILL their purpose"
My statement according to her - "If Jews don't FAIL their purpose"

Clearly false accusations on contradictions.
Posted by Yusuf94 2 years ago
Yusuf94
@emil

You're not making even a bit of sense.

Show me the statements where I contradicted myself. You can't because I didn't contradict my statements. Instead it's you who falsified my statement by changing it to ""If the Jews don't fail their purpose" from my original statement which was "If Jews don't FULFILL their purpose". It's clear that you falsified my statement and made up the whole false accusation of me contradicting myself. Viewers please take a notice of this in round 2.

That is what your implying it's not what I said. You've got nothing of your own so now you're just manipulating my words. Israel came into existence and still fighting a war their is no sign of peace from it's existence which Israel history is evidence enough.
And I said antisemitism is why Jews failed their purpose if they didn't antisemitism wouldn't be in the first place. Then I said if Jews continue to fail and don't fulfill their purpose it's never gonna stop. And then maybe that bondage prophecy will also come true. If it's not already fulfilled like I mentioned.

Viewers she failed to defend clearly and now she is manipulating my words.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
Yusuf94EmilroseTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: 1) I agreed with Con before the debate given the contention that the Torah, the five books of Moses, endorse a hatred for Jewish people is absurd. It doesn't take a lengthy explanation to understand such a simple point. 2) I agree with Con after the debate BECAUSE Pro made a frivolous case claiming the Holocaust, the systematic and wholesale murder of 6 million Jews by the Nazis was a punishment of God by grossly contorting scripture about punishment for sins which he conflates to equal the extermination of an entire race by Nazis authorities that committed unspeakable sins. 3) Con had better conduct and you have to look no further than the vulgar personal attacks Pro made in the comment section. 4) Con definitely had better spelling and grammar. For example, Pro said - "Which suggests clearly that Jews were exclusively chosen for a "purpose". The sentence structure and grammar are a mess.