Antitheism is justified
Debate Rounds (3)
Antitheism as defined by RationalWiki is: "outspoken opposition to theism and religion"http://rationalwiki.org.... It is not hatred of theists, desire to kill them etc and not all atheists are antitheist. Some are indifferent to religion, others see it positively, and their are antitheists such as myself that see it as detrimental. The list is endless.
Faith is "firm belief in something without proof/ complete trust. Both definitions will be used in this debate.
The focus will be on Islam and Christianity as they are the most popular religions today and therefore have the most influence and power.
No personal insults
Everything has to be backed up with evidence a quote with citation or a paraphrase with a link to evidence
And their must be a analysis connecting your evidence to your argument
I hope we both have a exciting debate ahead!
My opponent's definitions are all correct, but I'd like to also define "justified" in this context as "having good reason". I don't think that will be a major point of contention in this debate, but it's worth noting for voter's sake.
The rules all look pretty good to me. I may use other forms of evidence in this debate than those my opponent specifically enumerated as I don't believe my opponent intended to be too restrictive with this, but it will all obviously be shown to reach my conclusions.
With that in mind I look forward to a fun and interesting discussion. Good luck!
My main points:
1)Islam and Christianity demand obedience to a wrathful and cruel God.
2)The Bible and Koran feeds or encourages intolerance.
3)The two holy books are flawed with their many contradictions and therefore man-made.
I will separate my points on Islam and Christianity.
Islam means literally, submission to Allah or God, not peace as some Muslims say. If you are not a Muslim you are not submitting to God and therefore you will earn Allah's wrath. . "The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ a son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how deluded they are away from the truth"(9:30). Allah will punish Jews and Christians for believing anyone is the son of God for to Allah has no partners nor does he have children. They are believing in falsehoods and will suffer Allah's wrath. Clearly, Allah shows no good will towards Jews and Christians who are often referred to as "People of the Book" in the Koran. And for a Muslim to disagree with this would be going against what Allah dictates in the Koran when Islam is absolute submission to Allah no ifs,ands, or buts about it. Also, it is not enough to pray 5 times a day, to believe in Allah and the Judgment Day. Muslims who bleed and die for Allah are superior to those who stay at home. "Not equal are those Believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled. And those who strive and fight with their goods and persons Allah granted a grade higher"(5:95). Allah is no different from Sparta or China where citizens had to live and die for the state with undying devotion. He demands you make sacrifices for him to be considered any good in his eyes and curses those who are not Muslim. Many people however, were taught their religions as children and sincerely believe that their God is real, how is it just for Allah to condemn and make one suffer for the faults of his parents, their parents and so on and so forth in teaching them to worship the wrong God? Allah has already condemned the majority of the world to hell as soon as they are born and yet Muslims worship him.
The Koran itself is intolerant of all non- Muslims whether atheist or believing in other gods and that is most of the world's population. Allah will punish Unbelievers, especially polytheists and Christians since they believe in the Trinity.
"Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers for that they joined partners with Allah"(3:151).Those who believe in more than one god or worship, show reverence to anyone but the true God should be very afraid for their sin. Furthermore, there are many verses where Muslims are to distrust and treat inferior non-believers for they are not Muslims. "Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers Unbelievers..."(3:28)Do not befriend a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, or atheist they are untrustworthy. Judge people not by their character but what religion they follow. "And believe no one unless he follows your religion"(3:73) Non -Muslims are liars and only followers of Islam speak the truth. Also, Muslims are the best, better than Jews and Christians who are evil rule breakers. "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind. Enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them some have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors" (3:110)Muslims are moral while Jews and Christians are immoral, not just a few but MOST. In addition, pagans who worship goddesses are worshippers of Satan and therefore enemies of Allah and Muslims. "(The Pagans), leaving him call but upon female deities. They call but upon Satan the persistent rebel!"(4:117) Hindus, Wiccans, and other religious people who worship goddesses are praying to Satan and in reality are Satanists. So who are Muslims to trust who are there allies? A Muslims "real friends are Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers..."(3:55). Anyone not Muslim is a outsider and a enemy. Seek out help and comfort from Allah, Muhammad, and other Muslims because the rest of the world is inferior and not as moral as Muslims. Surely, these verses encourage intolerance towards non-Muslims And these are only a fraction of the verses spewing hatred towards Jews, Christians, etc. Islam is not a tolerant religion. If it was these very verses would not exist. It would tell Muslims to judge one by their character and deeds not their creed.
Islam is two faced. Preaching tolerance and overflowing with hate. Many Muslims will recite the nice verses without any mention of the nastier ones.(Muslims are not the only ones guilty of this and I am not saying all do this). For example, "Those who believe (in the Koran).And those who follow the Jewish (scriptures)And the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"(2:62) Christians and Jews, Sabians and other theists who do good and have faith will be rewarded after death and will have no need to be scared or to mourn. However, it then says it a later Surah "O ye People of the Book! Believe in what we have now revealed, confirming what was already with you, before we change the face and fame of some of you beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as we cursed the Sabbath-breakers.."(4:47). Now the Koran says to accept the Koran Christians and Jews or you will face shame or be turned into apes as was the fate of Sabbath breakers(2:65). It is not enough to follow the Bible or Torah and do good, you must accept Islam or feel Allah's wrath. In addition, the Koran says to accept other peoples religious beliefs."... I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To be your way and mine"(109:4-6) The Koran says to accept different beliefs and to- arguing with them will be pointless as they are just as firm in their belief as a Muslim is in Allah. In contrast, the Koran says to oppose non- Muslims until they submit to Islam and pay tribute. "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued"(9:29). Beat Jews and Christians and others until they kowtow to Muslims and pay taxes in other words. The contradictions are very clear. Tolerate other religions on one hand, but then force the followers of other religions to accept Islamic rule and pay Jizya. Do not leave them alone to worship their deities without being submissive to Muslims. Jews and Christians, follow your holy books and you will have bliss in the afterlife. Then, accept the Koran or be turned into apes and lose face! Muslims say the Koran is from God because it is perfect. It clearly is not as demonstrated by these verses. And the only creature on this Earth with enough intelligence to write the Koran but still make so many mistakes is MAN.
Overall, opposition to Islam is justified as it encourages people to follow a god who teaches you to fight for him to the death, to hate those different from you to distrust them, and it negates its positive verses with the negative ones. To not oppose it would be accepting unjust doctrines to be fed to the public and portraying Islam as tolerant, perfect, and from a loving god when it clearly is not. Once we show people errors in their ways, things will change. It will not be easy but it can be done. Since when do we end evil by staying silent, by accepting it but not speaking against it?
I hope my opponent doesn't mind if I go to Christianity in PART of the next round as I ran out of space. Sorry! You can now give me a counter argument to mine on Islam.
I thank my opponent for opening her contentions. I will be using the Penguin translation of the Qu'ran which uses less archaic language than what my opponent uses. I hope this is alright. Bear in mind that my opponent has the burden of proof.
God is evil?
I agree with her that religion is man-made. I also agree that the Gods of those religions do not exist. Now she has to prove why worshipping a non-existent God is immoral. She attempts to do so with reference to several Qu'ranic verses. But the point is that anything she can prove it says in the Qu'ran God will do is irrelevant, because God won't, because God does not exist. How can a non-existent thing be evil?
The implicit assumption I'm making here that people should not do God's job for him, but it's made explicit in the Bible, the Torah and the Qu'ran. For instance, and I quote from the Qu'ran sura 17, verses 55 and 56: "Your Lord knows you best. He will show you mercy if He will, and punish you if He pleases. We have not sent you to be their [other people's] guardian. Your Lord is best aware of all who dwell in the heavens and the earth". So for a Muslim to carry out instructions of what God will do would be tantamount to a claim that Muslim knows as much as God does about that person, for our friendly non-existent God alone determines guilt and punishment. That alone deals with around half of my opponent's points - she is confusing what is right for God to do (ie, what humans should not generally do), and what is right for people. In Islam especially, the distinction is very important.
She only makes this one very briefly, so I'll only give a quick response. This whole argument presupposes Islam is bad. I reject that premise.
Muslims are evil?
My opponent believes that the Qu'ran commands bleeding and dying for Allah - it does not. What it proscribed is the Arabic "Jihad", which is unfortunately sometimes wrongly translated as "fight" because the translators couldn't think of a better English word. A better translation might be "struggle", although it still isn't accurate. It has several meanings. It refers to a struggle within yourself to be a better person, so a person sitting at home all day and not at, say, the mosque, is not equal. It also refers to defending Islam (not "attacking others" for Islam, as sura 2 verse 191 specifically commands "...do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors"). This may be a defence in the sense of apologetics, or in a military sense if invaded. Some scholars also see Jihad as a special obligation to help their community in general. See also http://en.wikipedia.org... . This is not unjustified. Trying to better yourself, or your community, or self-defense either physically or verbally, is good even from a secular perspective because it makes everyone happy. Even with Jihad there is a code of conduct. "Call (others) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the best manner" (16:125) - so Muslims, your religion commands you to be respectful debaters!
I will be the first to admit that these things have been largely misunderstood by many muslims themselves, but that's a great reason to teach them the truth about their religion, not to buy into the lies about it.
What about making friends with non-Muslims? In fact, if you read the end of that sentence, it reads "Let not believers make friends with infidels IN PREFERENCE to the faithful" (emphasis added). By leaving this part out, my opponent makes it seem like Muslims cannot tolerate non-Muslims - they can, they just need to tolerate other Muslims as well. A Muslim is, of course, one who upholds the moral code of Islam which is pretty good, so that's not a problem either.
He also selectively cites a part of the Qu'ran when he quotes "And believe no one unless he follows your religion". This is actually part of a quote in the Qu'ran of "some people of the book", not a commandment. Indeed, the Qu'ran goes on to give a response to this, respectfully explaining why this is wrong. There are a number of other immoral claims of then-Christians who obviously didn't read the Bible carefully enough, which the Qu'ran also goes on to respectfully explain and knock down.
Believing that most others are bad is not inherently immoral either. It's a pretty hypocritical argument since my opponent is arguing most religious people are bad, and that she is more moral than them all.
Muslims are forced by God to tolerate everyone else. In sura 2, verse 256, it states "There shall be no compulsion in religion." There is literally not one holy book before this that went this far and made so blunt a statement. The prophet Muhammed stated to some "unbelievers", who were the Jews living in Mecca: "I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship what I worship... you have your religion and I have mine" (that's pretty much the entirety of sura 109). He was totally prepared to live in peace with others. Nahju 'l-Balagha relates that Muhammed said "Whosoever does injustice to a protected non-Muslim, then I will be his enemy".
At the end of the day, you can't argue with sura 2, verse 83 - "Speak good words to all people." As sura 41, verse 34 points out, that's how you can become like warm friends, no matter what the faith, what the creed or what the race of them may be.
So if they don't believe in the bad stuff, what do they believe. To cite 33:35, Muslims are those who "submit to God and accept the true Faith; who are devout, sincere, patient, humble, charitable, and chaste" - sounds like a pretty good person. Even if they had just said "sincere, humble and charitable" I would have been impressed enough. So Muslims are generally good people if they follow their religion. If religion has that effect, then antitheism would seek to remove it.
The list of good deeds Muslims are commanded by their religion to practice are too long to list here, from making sure guests have enough to eat, to calling others offensive names of any sort, to brushing your teeth. For full accounts of the relevant verses for these things, you can check out http://www.answering-christianity.com... and http://www.muslim.org....
More to the point, these simple and noble ideals are actually practiced by Muslims. A quick look down what I believe is the most followed Islamic twitter account, with a legendary half a million active followers, reveals that these things are very much in the hearts and minds of Muslims (https://twitter.com...).
My opponent has failed to show that any Muslim laws actually justify antitheism towards their religion. I'm proud to oppose the motion.
Antitheist forfeited this round.
Oh well - vote for me please.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct and arguments points go to Con for Pro's unfortunate forfeiture.
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