Are God and Satan the same or the Bible has been corrupted? Can't you answer my question? Is it hard
Debate Rounds (5)
" 24 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
But it is written in 1 Chronicles 21:1 that:
" 21 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
How it it possible? Are God and The Satan the same? If not, which one should we believe? Can it be a contradiction in Bible?
I don't understand what you mean. But I think you believe Satan and God are the same. I am Muslim. They are many Christians who say Allah is satanic. They just lie and I can prove it. But I want to show the Christians that their Lord is Satan. And I quote their Scriptures to prove it. Are you a Christian? If so, I have some questions for you:
If God and Satan are the same. So why don't we use the word "Satan" instead of Lord? Is Jesus the son of Satan? If God and Satan are the same, does it mean that Christians are worshipping Satan?
What about Salvation? Christians believe God has chosen them. They believes God will save them through Jesus. They also believe Satan misguides and deceives people with temptation. If Satan and God are the same, how can God be a deceitful and Saviour at the same time? If God wants to save Christians, so why does He deceive them? If God wants to deceive Christians, why does He save them? You may say that God deceives to test his servants. But it is nonsense. Why should God deceive Christians while he will save them anyway? There are many Christians who commit sin and ask forgiveness on Sundays. They believe God will forgive and save them. We all know that Satan makes us commit sin. So what God/Satan does, is completely aimless. Why should he deceive people when he forgives all the Christians at the end?
And if the Bible is corrupted, why don't Christians admit it?
I will say this. If God or Allah are Omnipresent, then in the Garden of Eden when the snake convinced Eve to eat the fruit of the tree, God was there. If he knows all, then he knew what the snake would do. He placed the tree there knowing that man would eat of it. He knew that man would disobey him, so in placing the tree there, God was acting against God. Satan in Hebrew means adversary. God in placing the tree there was his own adversary. If god or Allah is all powerful, and they created the world, and they are everywhere and know everything, and they are good and loving, then the evil they created is against themselves, which makes them their own adversary, which makes them Satan. This is true of ANY deity that claims to know everything, be everywhere, be the source of everything, and have no limits on their power, and be good. Evil exists, and therefore by necessity the god that created the mechanism for evil must be their own opponent.
In this world, everything has an opposite. For example the opposite of light is darkness. The opposite of day is night. The opposite of believer is atheist. And the opposite of Allah is... Taghut. "Taghut" is an Arabic word for something which is against God. It can refer to many things. For example, the Satan, the cruel person, our soul and everything which misguides us can be Taghut.
And God/Allah has mentioned it in Quran:" Allah is the ally of those who believe. He brings them out from darknesses into the light. And those who disbelieve - their allies are Taghut. They take them out of the light into darknesses. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein. 2:257"
You said about Eve. But you must know that this story in Bible is false. The Bible considers Eve as a sinner. But Quran says that Adam consumed that forbidden fruit. I tell you this story as it mentioned in Quran:
" And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful." They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is the Knowing, the Wise." He said, "O Adam, inform them of their names." And when he had informed them of their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you reveal and what you have concealed." And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers. And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers." But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time." We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally." (Quran 2:30-39"
" And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except Satan; he refused. So We said, "O Adam, indeed this is an enemy to you and to your wife. Then let him not remove you from Paradise so you would suffer. Indeed, it is [promised] for you not to be hungry therein or be unclothed. And indeed, you will not be thirsty therein or be hot from the sun." Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?" And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam. disobeyed his Lord and erred. Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him]. 20:117-123"
Do you think God didn't know that Satan would deceive them? Do you think God couldn't prevent Satan from deceiving them? God is all-Knowing. He can do whatever He wants.
"His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is. (Quran 36:82)
What would happen if Satan didn't exist? All people would be good and there would be no evil. But was it a great life? No. Satan has been created to deceive us. You may ask why God created Satan who disobeys Him. If there wasn't darkness, we wouldn't know/appreciate light. If the falsehood didn't exist, we wouldn't appreciate the truth. If there wasn't evil man, we wouldn't love the good one.
So God let Satan deceive Adam (or us) to know who would be His sincere follower.
"[Then He will say], "But stand apart today, you criminals. Did I not enjoin upon you. O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - [for] indeed, he is to you a clear enemy. And that you worship [only] Me? This is a straight path. (Quran 36:59-61)
"And tell My servants to say that which is best. Indeed, Satan induces [dissension] among them. Indeed Satan is ever, to mankind, a clear enemy. (17:53)"
" O you who have believed, do not follow the footsteps of Satan. And whoever follows the footsteps of Satan - indeed, he enjoins immorality and wrongdoing. And if not for the favor of Allah upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have been pure, ever, but Allah purifies whom He wills, and Allah is Hearing and Knowing." (24:21)
What do you call dark? The absence of visible light? Fire is an exothermic chemical reaction that emits energy in many forms. One of the primary ones is the form of light, both direct and infrared. As fire is just energy being released in a particular form, it is basically just light. That makes Satan the companion of light. I think that the Quran teaches Allah is the light. That makes Satan at the very least the companion of Allah.
I postulate that a thing that Allah knew which his angels did not was that Allah is both the light and the darkness. He is all-knowing, and so he knew the nature of those he was creating as he created them. You say he created Satan so that man would have evil to better know good. But you state that 36:82 that when he says "be" about something he intends, it is. Could he not have then said "be" intending man know good and evil without the existence of Satan or capacity of evil? Why would he say "be" about a creature that he knew would act in defiance of him, unless it was part of his intent to have creatures who could and would act in defiance of him?
I say that Allah did this because they are not in defiance of him. I say that Allah and Satan are two sides of the same coin. Did not God create man in his own image? Is not man capable of both good and evil acts? I argue that Iblees is just a servant of Allah's other aspect, the aspect which is a companion to fire. The evil that dwells within all creatures. He created the world thus because evil is part of his nature as much as good is. This is because he is both God and Satan, just as his creations have the potential for both good and evil in them. He says not to worship Satan because he wants us to focus on our better aspect, but he doesn't remove Satan from existence because to do so would eliminate part of himself.
But we must know why Allah has told so. We are unable to know Allah. We cannot describe him. We just can describe Allah as He has described Himself. If you read Quran, you will find out that Allah gives us some examples which help us to understand easily:
" If We had sent down this Quran upon a mountain, you would have seen it humbled and coming apart from fear of Allah. And these examples We present to the people that perhaps they will give thought. 59:21"
"And We have certainly presented to the people in this Quran from every [kind of] example. But, [O Muhammad], if you should bring them a sign, the disbelievers will surely say, "You [believers] are but falsifiers." 30:58
Ok, Allah says He is the light of earth and the heavens. It is just an example. Let me explain more: When there is light, we can see everything around us clearly. And when it is dark, we can see nothing. In another word, when we can see something, we find out that light exists.
Allah is the light of earth and heavens. Do you know why? It means, when we look at a creature (like a flower), we realize that Someone has created it. When we look at everything, we will find out that a Creator exists.
There is another reason; everything requires light for being seen. The example of Allah's existence is similar to light. Because everything needs Allah to live. We can't do nothing without Allah's help.
You said:""Could he not have then said "be" intending man know good and evil without the existence of Satan?" Allah could do this. But you must know that if Satan didn't exist, there would not be evil in the world. Satan is the source of all kind of evil. If Satan didn't exist, life would make no sense. Everybody would be the best person. Everybody would do good deeds. And as a result, all people would be the same. But now, people are different. You can see some people who are more religious than you. You also can find some people who are more sinful than you. Satan helps us to find the best people.
Allah could make all of us perfect. He could force us to obey Him. But he didn't. If he did so, what would be the different between us and animals? As we know, animals cannot decide or think. They just follow their nature. But Allah granted us intellect. He grants us the ability to think or decide. He wants us to choose our own way. He wants us to choose our destination. He tells us what will happen if we follow Satan:
"Indeed, Satan is an enemy to you; so take him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be among the companions of the Blaze. 35:6"
He also shows the Straight Path:
"And Allah invites to the Home of Peace and guides whom He wills to a straight path. 10:25"
Allah lets us choose whom to follow. In Quran, he warns us of following Satan and gives us glad tidings of rewards for following Him.
Ok, I think I should tell you more about Satan. He was the best worshipper of Allah. He had worshipped God for more than 6000 years. Read the following story, please:
On the night of Mi'raj, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) went to the heavens and sighted every spot there and the same night returned back. In the morning of that night, the Satan visited the Prophet and said:" O Messenger of Allah. Last night you went to Mi'raj and on the left of the fourth heaven you observed a pulpit, which was broken, burnt and toppled. Did you recognised to whom belonged that pulpit?" The Prophet replied:" No," Whose pulpit was that?" The Satan replied: "It is my pulpit which belonged to me. I was sitting upon it and the angels were sitting before it and I was >talking about the devotion towards Allah. The angel were amazed of my worship to Allah. When ever my rosary was falling down on the ground many thousand angels were getting up in a hurry to kiss the rosary and giving it back to me. I was believing that Allah did not created better creature than me. But once it happened against my wish and I was thrown away from the doorway of Allah and now nobody is worst and cursed than me in the presence of the One Allah. O Muhammad! Do not be proud and never show haughtiness as no body can realize about the acts and affairs of Allah."
In his visit to prophet John (a.s), Satan said:" I was among the Archangels and for four thousand years I did not raised my head from a single prostration but my consequence was such that I was thrown away from the rank of archangels and became cursed and excommunicated from the threshold of the Almighty Allah."
Now, I want to tell you about the disobedient of Satan in Quran:
"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed. I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration." So the angels prostrated - all of them entirely. Except Iblees; he was arrogant and became among the disbelievers. [Allah] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?" He said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." [Allah] said, "Then get out of Paradise, for indeed, you are expelled. And indeed, upon you is My curse until the Day of Recompense." He said, "My Lord, then reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected." [Allah] said, "So indeed, you are of those reprieved Until the Day of the time well-known." [Iblees] said, "By your might, I will surely mislead them all Except, among them, Your chosen servants." [Allah] said, "The truth [is My oath], and the truth I say - [That] I will surely fill Hell with you and those of them that follow you all together." (Quran 38:71-86)
My friend, I told ynu about Satan and God. But why don't you understand that...?
God says in Quran: "We have certainly sent down to you a Book in which is your mention. Then will you not reason? 21:10"
God wants us to think about the verse of Quran. There is a philosophy and reason behind each verse of Quran. That's why we need interpretation to understand Quran.
Allah is the light of earth and heavens. I told you what that meant. But let's suppose Allah is light. So, can I say Allah doesn't exist when we are in a dark place? I think I can. Because there is not light in a dark place. And Allah cannot see us when we are in a dark room. And as a result, we are allowed to commit sin. Am I right? Do you agree with me? I know you do. Because you believe Allah is light. And light doesn't exist in dark places.
You said:" we can know God in his works, so we can know by the evil in the universe that God has evil in him.". I want to tell you another thing. Please tell me if I am right. We can know men by their sons, so when someone is evil we can realize that his father is evil too. For example, Cane killed his brother, Abel. So we realize that their father, Adam, was a murderer too.
Or the son of Noah disobeyed Allah and the Almighty punished him. So we realize that Noah, who was an archprophet, disobeyed Allah and deserved punishment. So if your son is evil, it means that you have evil in yourself! Right?
Satan was not evil at first. I told you that he was the BEST worshipper of Allah. He was just proud. And that made him not to prostrate. He thought he was superior to us. Satan commited sin bx disobeying Allah. He didn't get regretful after sinning. He didn't confess his sin. He didn't repent. And he despaired from Allah's Mercy. He was not evil at first. He loved Allah. He used to obey His orders. But his pride made him evil...
Allah is all-Wise"and all His actions are based on wisdom Therefore, all creatures have been created according to Allah's divine wisdom. He has granted them the best shape and form thatthey deserve. Satan's creation of fire is based on the divine wisdom as well. Satan is one of the types of Jinn"and it has been created from the fire with subtle corpus. In a generalclassification the objects are divided into two kinds: gross objects e.g. the corpuses of animals and human beings which have been made of clay, and subtle objects such as thecorpus of the jinns who have been created of fire.
These two types of objects havevolume and quantity, but that they are different from each other. The difference between them is that Satan is not visible to humans. Owing to its delicacy or subtlety, it is able acquire different shapes and forms and it can infiltrate anything and go anywhere it wishes. But man is visible to Satan and it is not possible for him to change his mode and place of existence quickly because he is subject to gradual motion.
The wisdom behind the Satan's creation of fire can be summed up in the following points:
First: Test of Satan
Allah has talked about Iblees (Satan) as a physical being made of fire. He is portrayed as a rebellious creature, basking in glory of the matter he was made of and showing arrogance to man, who was made of clay. To Satan"s mind, fire is far superior to clay because it can destroy clay with its power. Satan's creation of fire was to test him whether or not he would become arrogant by his appearance. The cause of his rebellion against Allah was the high regard in which Allah had held Adam when He created him and for his forthcoming role on earth, especially when Allah ordered the angels to prostrate themselves to Adam. As the Quran implies, Satan was part of the angelic group. Satan disobeyed Allah and argued as such:""You created me from fire, and You created him from"clay."
Second: Test of Man
Satan is man's sworn enemy; he is a seductive entity causing man to mistake his beliefs. He calls him to sin and rebellion in his conducts and behaviors. He is the source of"temptation deception anddeceit. He makes false look as right."Trick is his method; he deviates man through ways which are not known to him. Owing to its subtle body, Satan"can"penetrate"the"human's interior and can influence his mind and conscience."However Satan's adverse"influence on humans is because of their own bad choice. That is to say, man himself lets Satan enter his heart, otherwise if he does not want Satan to enter his heart, there is no way Satan can influence him.
Although Satan is invisible to man because of his subtle nature, he must be careful not to be harmed by him. He should stay away from such an enemy who is likely to deceive him at any moment. The Quran says, "O children of Adam! let not the Satan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them."
This is a test of man to be faced with such an enemy.
You attempt to demonstrate I am wrong in that if a man has a son and that son is evil, that compares to Satan and God. There is a difference between your DNA fertilizing an Egg in a womb and Creating something out of a raw material with full knowledge of what would happen.
If I knew the future, and knew that if I had sex at a specific time it would create a son whose appearance I knew, and that the child would grow up and murder someone, and I did it anyway? Yes I would be evil. But mankind is not all knowing. We also don't get to pick every detail of a child we have. If we had the power of God, and chose to create a evil creature when we could have made a good one, yes, we would know evil men by their evil progeny, and good men by their good progeny.
As for Satan not being evil at first, to god he was. God knows everything. If god said "Be" to create Satan, he knew the Character of the creature he was willing into existence. He knew that Satan would worship him for 6000 years and then give it up. He knew he'd lead mankind into sin. So to god, Satan was evil from the word go. He could have said "Be" willing a creature into existence that would not do these things, because God is all powerful. Satan wasn't man, with which he gave free will, was he? No. Satan is instead a creature powerful enough to whisper in the ear of the Prophet and lead the most godly men astray. Satan has the same power as god. Just as God's power flows to you if you "let him into your heart", so too do men "let Satan into their hearts" to commit great acts of evil. Often on godly or good men. How can Satan overcome the power of god, even temporarily, if god is All Powerful?
There are two possible answers to the questions Satan's existence creates for the All knowing and all Powerful aspects of god. The first is that God is not All Powerful or All Knowing. But if god is limited, are we sure that it's the god who created the universe?
The second answer is that Satan is a different aspect of god. Satan is what is evil about god, just as God is what is good about Satan. With that explanation, Evil can exist in the universe. It was created by God in his aspect of Satan. If god is a reflection of the universe, and there is great evil in the universe, then there must be great evil in god. God and Satan being the same being explain this. We were supposedly created in his image. So just as we are good and evil, so too is god. God will not destroy Satan because destroying Satan is destroying himself. He wants to be good just as we want to be good. So he tells us not to give in to Satan which is him as evil.
You might consider that I'm being influenced by Satan to tell you this (Which would mean God, whom will not influence free will, is weaker than Satan, who can) but your strongest argument against my proof from the existence of evil is that God wishes to test us. The Bible says he's all knowing, which is my proof it wasn't a test. That means God is either Satan or the Bible's wrong. I cannot speak for the Quran, but I know it speaks for itself. What does it say on the matter of what god knows? I don't have the answer to that, but you might want to consider what it says when you offer up your next prayer to that Deity made of light.
Thank you for this debate. Have a good day!
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct - Tie. Both had proper conduct throughout. S&G - Tie. Both had adequate spelling and grammar throughout. Arguments - Pro. It seemed like both were arguing the same thing at first, but then it turned into a debate on whether Allah was Satan or not, which is very different from the Christian God which I think was originally the focus here. Either way, Pro was able to show compelling evidence that Allah and Satan are one in the same, albeit two different aspects of the same God. Futhermore, Pro was able to overcome the final challenge from Con which was regarding the test - by showing how an omnipotent god would have no need for a test since he's already all knowing. This was a great debate from both sides but Pro was more convincing by the end. Sources - Tie. Both utilized scripture which balanced each other out.
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