The Instigator
Wilford_Hester
Pro (for)
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0 Points
The Contender
buildingapologetics
Con (against)
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3 Points

Are LDS (Mormons) Christians?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/13/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 months ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 492 times Debate No: 107986
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
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Wilford_Hester

Pro

First off, a Christian is a person who believes in Jesus Christ or His teachings. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints most definitely do that. We believe fully in God, the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost (Article of Faith #1, lds.org)
On what grounds do you say that the LDS church, or Mormonism, as it is often called, is not Christian in its beliefs? Because I am a Mormon, and am fully convinced that we are Christians.
buildingapologetics

Con

Introduction
I thank my opponent for a solemn but necessary topic to discuss. Let me first say that it is possible for someone to be a Mormon and a Christian, however, such a person would have to deny many LDS teachings. I take my position because I believe in Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura. I am forced to believe Mormons (at least those who believe all of LDS doctrine) are not Christians because I believe the words of the Bible.

Since the Bible is so key to the discussion of whether or not Mormons are Christians, we must discuss exactly what the Bible is. Therefore, I would like you to answer this question. How authoritative is the Bible to you, and why? If I am representing your beliefs correctly, you would probably say it is correct as far as it can be correctly translated, and it has lost many plain and precious parts. Therefore, if you agree that those statements accurately represent what you believe, I will have to disprove each one.

Now, I would like to address a disagreement that we may or may not have. Let me know if you think this is reasonable. I do not believe a person is a Christian merely if they claim to be Christians or they claim to be followers of Christ.

"First off, a Christian is a person who believes in Jesus Christ or His teachings."
I agree with this. However, it must be noted that there is another Jesus. There is a false Jesus, and if you believe in the counterfeit, you are not a Christian. Scripture warns us about such false versions of Jesus:

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

How then can we really know if the LDS church teaches a counterfeit Jesus? Basically, if the church denies major Biblical views of the nature of Christ and the nature of God (since Jesus is God), we can know that the church teaches a false Jesus. If Mormons follow this false Jesus, they cannot be classified as Christians. Also, because the gospel is necessary for our salvation, and because Galatians 1 warns about a false gospel, we also know that, if one believes in a false gospel, they are not a Christian. This is even if that person claims to believe in Christ. Therefore, we must test the LDS doctrines to make sure they teach the real Jesus, the real God, and the real gospel.

Before I test each one of those aspects, I think it is important to state the obvious for a minute. If Mormonism is true, obviously they are Christians. On the other hand, even if I were to disprove Mormonism, that would not be enough for me to show that Mormons, in general, are not Christians. I must show that certain doctrines of the LDS church are both false and fundamentally distort an essential defining doctrine of Christianity. Because of this, I do not see the need to get into issues of whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet. With that, I will implement a two-step method for individual LDS doctrines. 1) I will define the doctrine and show that it is indeed an LDS teaching. 2) I will show that the doctrine is false using scripture.

A Different God:
The Plurality of Gods: This doctrine teaches that there are multiple gods in existence.
When accused of being polytheistic, most Mormons I have talked to will reply that they are only to worship one God. This is not monotheism, this is actually a type of polytheism called henotheism. Even the claim that Mormons are only to worship one God is false.
"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow"three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization". All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God"he would be a giant or a monster" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 372).

Since Mormons believe in three god's: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we must examine whether they teach that we ought to worship each of these three gods.
Bruce McConkie:
"Three separate personages-Father, Son, and Holy Ghost- comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we should worship. But in addition, there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from the worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods." (Mormon Doctrine, pp.576-77).

This defines the Mormon doctrine. There are multiple gods we should worship and even more in existence Now, we shall examine the scriptures to see if this is true of the God of the Bible.

Deuteronomy 4:35,39
Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD.

2 Samuel 7:22:
Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

1 Kings 8:60
That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

Isaiah 44:6,8
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

All of the passages above and much more testify that there is only one God in existence. The last one is the most damning to the Mormon doctrine. If there is no other god in the on the earth, in the heavens, or beside God, and if God doesn't know of any other gods, then none exist. This Mormon doctrine is so dangerous because it is the biggest reason God punished Israel in the Old Testament. When you say that there is more than one God, you are stripping God of His uniqueness. You turn God into one of many, so He is no longer unique. You also strip God of His Holiness and His infinitude. LDS doctrine drags God down to a more manageable level.

God Is an Exalted Man: This doctrine teaches that God is of the same kind as us. He used to be exactly like us, but now He is an exalted human being with a body of flesh and bone.
Joseph Smith:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens . . . I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man . . . it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-346).

I am currently at the character limit, so I will end my response here. Because of this, I will continue where I left off in my next reply. Below I have provided an outline of the topics I will cover next.

The Law of Eternal Progression:

A Different Jesus:
A DIfferent Gospel:
Debate Round No. 1
Wilford_Hester

Pro

I must admit, you do bring up many good points, although, as a Mormon, I can say that they are not entirely accurate.

You are correct in assuming that "[I] believe the bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly" (Article of Faith #9). Furthermore, I do believe that it has lost many plain and precious parts. As you have cited the Bible multiple times, I only feel it fair that I can cite The Book of Mormon, which Mormons believe is another testament of Jesus Christ, inspired scripture written by prophets spanning a time of 600 BC to 400 AD. You mentioned that you have talked with missionaries of our church multiple times, so I am assuming that you own a copy.

1 Nephi 13: 24-26, :
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.
25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest""because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God""because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

According to this, the Bible was a pure testament of Christ, but when the apostles were all killed, the 'great and abominable church' (you can infer for yourself who that is talking about; I will not specify any church) took it, and edited it, taking away many parts of the gospel and many covenants of the Lord (made to the House of Israel). Furthermore, the Bible was translated from Latin (a dead language) 1400 years after it was originally written. Then, it was retranslated over and over again. Saying that it has remained perfect throughout all of that seems incredulous to me for the following reasons:

1: In order for that to be true, the Bible would have had to remain perfect for 1400 years, while sitting in the hands of its enemies, who hated the doctrines taught in it.
2: Many languages cannot have exact translations, therefore, translations will (for sure) at least slightly alter and change around what is said, possibly making a big difference.

Just to clarify, when I use the Bible, I will be using the KJV, which my church believes to be the most accurate representation.

The Plurality of Gods: 'We believe in God, the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost' (Article of Faith #1). We believe in these three Gods: Heavenly Father, the Father of our spirits, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died for our sins and then came back to life so that we would be able to repent and forsake our sins, and in the Holy Ghost, a spirit being, often called your conscience, who will prompt us to choose right or wrong. However, these promptings are not extremely loud promptings, but a still, small voice, which can easily be ignored. Furthermore, how can you say that the Bible does not teach the Plurality of Gods? What about Matthew 3: 16-17:

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus Christ, on earth in a physical body, is baptized. The Spirit of God (the Holy Ghost) descends upon him. A voice is heard from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son (implying that He, the Speaker, is the Father), in whom I am well pleased. All three members of the Godhead, as we call the trinity, were there, in different forms.

Furthermore, Joseph Smith, the first prophet of our church, the restorer of the gospel, says this in Joseph Smith--History 1: 17:

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other""This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Again, the Father and the Son, in two different forms. However, we do believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are on in purpose, which purpose is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39, the Pearl of Great Price (can be found on lds.org)). This would explain the scriptures that say that there are no other Gods. Any god who would work against Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, or the Holy Ghost is a false god.

Besides, 3 god
buildingapologetics

Con

Thank you for a very reasonable response. I think I will begin by addressing the reliability of scripture.

The first issue is that the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts. This is not the case based on the level of agreement for vast amounts of manuscripts of the New Testament. Regardless, it does not really affect my case. If parts were lost, that means the New Testament we have today is 100% accurate (as far as it can be translated), even if it does not contain all of the information it once did. Since this is true, we can believe scriptures that say:
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Since this verse rules out the possibility of scripture fading away, and it has not been changed, we can know that we still have the true scriptures.

The next issue is whether or not the scriptures can be translated correctly. It seems you have a misunderstanding of how the translation process occurs. We do not have to translate into multiple languages (Greek > Latin > ... > English). Instead, we can translate directly from the original languages (Hebrew for the Old Testament, and Greek for the New) into English. We can do this because we possess thousands of manuscripts in the original languages.

Now, even if we translate only once, it still could be argued that at least some information may be lost. This is true, but it is not only a problem for me. Let us not forget that the Book of Mormon is a translation as well, and the BOM in other languages is a translation of a translation. Even if it was translated by god, the original language undoubtedly contains words that cannot be perfectly represented in English. Further, the situation for the Bible is better since, if you want the exact meaning, you have the ability to learn the original language and read it in the original for your self. In order to avoid this problem during my arguments, I will refer to other possible translations of the verses I cite when necessary.

The verses that you cite can all be explained if one adopts the Trinity. The Trinity states that God exists as three persons and one being. When I say persons, I am not talking about humanoids with flesh and bone. I am using "person" in its most basic sense. A rock has being, but it does not have person. A human has a being of flesh, as well as an immaterial person. God has a being of Spirit (which is immaterial) as well as three persons. These persons are not the same, hence: the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit. The scene at Jesus' baptism is a perfect depiction of this Trinity in action.

A Different God:
Plurality of gods:
I do not think your explanation of the verses provided is adequate for several reasons.
1) Even if we consider the passages to mean the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are merely one in purpose, Mormonism teaches that there are other gods that exist. In fact, the Father supposedly had a god.
2) Several of the passages say that there are no gods beside Jehovah or Jesus in LDS doctrine. If this is the case, the Holy Spirit and the Father cannot be considered beside Jesus.
3) According to Isaiah 44, Jehovah knows of no other gods. Either Jesus is not omnipotent and does not remember that the Father is His God, or there are no other gods. If you need more passages to demonstrate pure monotheism, I would be happy to provide hundreds.

God is an Exalted Man:
In my last response, I showed that Mormonism teaches that God is an exalted man and has a body of flesh and bone. I will now analyze that claim.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalm 118:6
The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

God is not a man, and he is of a completely different kind than mankind. This is what separates creator from creation. God is a spirit, and therefore, God does not have flesh and bone. God is not like us, and to make Him like us is to drag Him down.

The Law of Eternal Progression: This states that men can become gods and that we can eventually reach the point where God is now.
In my experience, this is one of the most difficult doctrines for Mormons today to accept. While Mormons used to accept this church teaching whole heatedly, modern Mormons often waffle on this issue. This official LDS document pretty much shuts down such a debate: http://www.ldslearning.org...
(Additional quotes and citations can be provided).

"...before me, there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10).

A Different Gospel:
I am skipping the portion on a different Jesus for now since most of it relies upon that which I already said, and I am running out of space.

Paul, in the book of Galatians, warns us not to follow a false Gospel. Such a false Gospel leads to death instead of life:

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel" not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Paul warns about some sort of false Gospel that, if you believe it, it will cause you to become accursed. The word anathema used here in the Greek is the strongest word Paul could have used, meaning eternally damned. This would, of course, make us all ask, what exactly is the false Gospel being mentioned here by Paul?

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3-1-5
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain"if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith

Gal. 3:10-11 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."

Galatians 5:2-4
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

It is clear from these selected passages (and more so for the entire book) that anyone who adds works to faith believes in a false Gospel. If one believes such, they are severed from Christ. The evidence suggests that Mormonism teaches precisely this false Gospel.

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

Unfortunately, this demonstrates that Mormons believe the false Gospel described by Paul.
Debate Round No. 2
Wilford_Hester

Pro

First off, I don't understand what you mean when you say, "The Father supposedly had a god". That statement doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Secondly, there are two ways you can view the word god. A god is an exalted being, and yes, we do believe that humans have been exalted and become perfect beings before. However, God (capital G) is different. He is the being watching over us, our Creator, the Father of the Universe. Therefore, the term God is applied to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Thirdly, YES we believe that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are exalted beings, with a body of flesh and bone. Are we not told that we are made in the image of God (Genesis 5:1)?
Fourth, how is The Law of Eternal Progression hard to understand? On earth right now we are growing, changing, and becoming better. Does it not follow that once we become perfect, resurrected beings, we will be like Heavenly Father? Why would we not? If He loves us, and we are His children, then wouldn't He want the best for us? Perfection? Won't He help us reach that?

Besides that, I don't get what circumcision has to do with this.

We do believe that God's grace will save us, but only after all we do. That also makes sense. Are you going to give someone something if they don't even try to get it? Or if they just give one weak little effort, such as dunking their head underwater? I would want them to work for it, even if they knew they wouldn't be able to get it without my help.

This is what my church believes about Christ. This was given by the head of our church, so it is official LDS doctrine:
The Living Christ:
"As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.
He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.
He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary"s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.
We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.
He rose from the grave to "become the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His "other sheep" (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised "dispensation of the fulness of times" (Ephesians 1:10).
Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: "His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
"I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father" (D&C 110:3"4).
Of Him the Prophet also declared: "And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
"For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father"
"That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God" (D&C 76:22"24).
We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth""built upon the foundation of . . . apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20).
We testify that He will someday return to earth. "And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together" (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.
We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles"that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son."

YES we believe that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father have bodies of flesh and bone. YES we believe that we must work to be saved by God's grace. NO we don't believe in a false gospel. All of the apostles, all those with authority, were killed by the Jews. Therefore, the true gospel was not on the earth until it was revealed to Joseph Smith by Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, all of this is based off of your definition of a Christian, not the traditional definition. If your personal definition of a Christian is different than the traditional definition of a Christian (someone who follows Christ), then I can't change that. But, according to the traditional definition of a Christian, Mormons (LDS) are Christians.
buildingapologetics

Con

"First off, I don't understand what you mean when you say, "The Father supposedly had a god". That statement doesn't seem to make sense to me."
Okay, let me explain it. According to official Mormon doctrine, God the Father once dwelt on another earth and worshiped His God in order to be exalted just as we may be. It is not simply that Mormonism teaches that we can become gods, they teach that we can become Gods. Lorenzo Snow, the Church fifth President once said: As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be. In other words, we will be able to reach the point where the Father currently is.

"Are we not told that we are made in the image of God (Genesis 5:1)?"
This is obviously in a figurative sense. In fact the first lie the serpent told humanity was that they might be as God. The very idea of trying to become like God is the reason the human race was plunged into darkness. We know that this verse is figurative because, otherwise, it would contradict the verses you have not addressed. God is said to fill the heavens and the earth, and exists as spirit without flesh and bone as I already showed. You have not addressed these passages.

"Fourth, how is The Law of Eternal Progression hard to understand?"
I understand it; I just don't accept it. God wasn't the best for us, and that is to be in eternal relationship with Him, not to try to usurp that which does not belong to us. Also, what do you mean by perfection? I would say mankind was perfect until the fall; that's why God said creation was very good.

"We do believe that God's grace will save us, but only after all we do."
Exactly, this is the problem; it is a false gospel. This is the exact false gospel that was mentioned by Paul. If you had read Galatians, you would understand that the church there believed they were saved by grace through faith plus works. In fact, they didn't even add as many works as Mormonism does. They said that, in order to be saved, one must have faith plus the good work of circumcision. Because they added this one good work, Paul said they were condemned, anathema, foolish, and severed from Christ. If you add any good work to faith whether that is baptism, or anything else, Christ will be of no effect to you. Whenever you do this, you are basically diminishing his sacrifice by saying it is not enough. Mormon leaders such as Brigham Young even taught that you needed to be killed for some sins because Christ's blood wasn't enough. This diminishes, Christ's work on the cross, thus His position as savior. You may call Jesus you savior, but you do not mean that in the Biblical sense. According to Mormonism, Christ provides a ladder which we can climb by our good works. According to God, Christ actually does the saving.

"Furthermore, all of this is based off of your definition of a Christian, not the traditional definition. If your personal definition of a Christian is different than the traditional definition of a Christian (someone who follows Christ), then I can't change that. But, according to the traditional definition of a Christian, Mormons (LDS) are Christians."
This is the final thing I would like to address. Firstly, I am using God's definition of a Christian as found in scripture. Even if every person on the planet disagreed, I am correct if I agree with God.

Secondly, I think we actually basically fundamentally agree about what it means to be a Christian. One must be a follower of Christ. The question is which Christ? If I were a Muslim who believed Jesus was the Messiah, but only a prophet, would I be a Christian? Jehovah's witnesses believe Jesus is the Messiah and Michael the Archangel, the first an greatest creation of GOd. Are they Christians? No. They do not believe in Christ as God revealed Him to be, so, while they may believe in "Jesus", they do not believe in the real Jesus.

Mormons believe Jesus is prophet, Messiah, lord, savior, and God. Does that mean Mormons are Christians? I wish I could say yes, but Mormons do not mean the same thing as scripture when they say lord, savior, or God. One is not a Christian merely because they speak Christianese and use Christian terms. One is a Christian if they truly follow Christ has He revealed Himself to be.

I do not believe Mormonism teaches a false Christ because they deny many essential, defining things about the Christian faith. Just as one cannot believe Jesus is God and be a Muslim, one cannot believe in the existence of multiple gods and be a Christian. Mormons directly or indirectly basically deny everything awesome and amazing that God revealed about Himself.

God claims to be unique- Mormons say he is only one of a potentially infinite number of Gods.
God claims to be holy and "other"- Mormons deny God's uniqueness, thus denying His holiness.
God claims to have always been God- Mormons claim that God was once a feeble, sinful human being.
God claims to be immutable- Mormons claim God was not always God.
God claims to be the only savior- Mormons claim there are many other earths where other Gods act as saviors.
God claims that His sacrifice on the cross is sufficient- Mormons deny this by claiming we must do some of the saving ourselves.
God claims to be omniscient- Mormonism claims that God only knows what He knows because people inform Him.
God claims to be beyond time- Mormons claim God exists within time.
God claims to be beyond matter- Mormons claim that God is made up of matter, thus subject to it.
God claims to be omnipresent- Mormons deny this by claiming he has a body of flesh and bone that only exists at one place at a time.
God claims to have all dominion- Mormons claim God is still increasing in dominion.
God claims to be all powerful - Some Mormons claim God is still increasing in power.
God claims to be separate and creator of the universe- Mormons claim God is inside the universe and that He did not create it. God simply rearranged matter that was eternal.
God claims to be perfectly good- Mormons claim God once sinned when he was a human.
God claims to be be competent- Mormons claim God was to weak to be able to protect His revelation from corruption.

Everything that is completely awe inspiring about God is denied by Mormons. Mormon's no more worship our God than the worshipers of Baal did. In fact, there is really no contest, Islam is far, far closer to Christianity than Mormonism. Mormon's use the same language as Christians, but they mean drastically different things. They take God and strip Him of all of His divine qualities, thus dragging Him down to a level for us humans to be able to manage Him more. The natural man hates the fact that God is so beyond him, that man always attempts to bring God down. Mormonism is perhaps one of the most extreme examples of this. Honestly, the god of Mormonism is pathetic when shown next to the radiant light of the true God of the Bible.

Since Mormon's do not worship the true God, they inevitably commit idolatry- the worst sin that one could commit.
This complete misunderstanding of God is the fountain from which the rest of the misunderstandings of Mormonism flows. When one denies the great qualities of God, one must come up with some other purpose for existence other than eternal relationship with God. This is where Mormonism claims that we can become like God, thus insulting the one true God and spitting in His face.

Mormons who accept what Mormonism teaches cannot be counted as Christians because they deny everything great about God. Mormons lift man up while they pull God down. They worship a false God, thus they worship a false Christ. While they use Christian language, Mormons do not believe Jesus is the Lord and Savior as the Bible describes. They twist each of these terms in order to bring Christ down. I really would love to call you my brother in Christ, but we do not worship the same Christ. I am truly sorry.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by whiteflame 3 months ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Wizofoz// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Pro. Reasons for voting decision: Cons arguments are that his view of Christianity is the "true" Christianity. That is not esytablished, and Pro showed that Mormons meet what is the established definition- one that believes in and prays to Jesus.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) The voter does not explain conduct, S&G or sources. (2) Arguments are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to specifically assess arguments presented by both sides. Merely stating that one side didn"t establish an argument is not sufficient " it must be clear how Con"s argument failed in the voter"s estimation.
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Posted by philochristos 5 months ago
philochristos
Explanation of my vote:

Both debaters agreed in the beginning that a Christian is somebody who believes in Jesus Christ and/or his teachings, so the debate came down to who the true Jesus was and what he taught (or what the true gospel was). There was some argument over whether there was one God or many gods, but I didn't see that as relevant. The question of who God is, not whether he is alone or one among many. If they had specifically debating whether or not the doctrine of the Trinity is true, this point could have been made relevant. The doctrine of the Trinity was mentioned in the debate, but there was no attempt to prove or disprove it. Pro questioned the accurate preservation of the scriptures, but he needed an additional step in his argument. Was this meant to cast doubt on the monotheistic passages that Con brought up or on Con's Galatian passages? If so, Pro should have said so, but he didn't, so this point served no purpose. They argued over whether the Father had a body of flesh and bone, but it was never shown by either side how that relates to who Jesus is or what the true gospel is, so it had no bearing on the definition of a Christian or whether Mormons are Christians, so it was irrelevant.

This debate came down to what the gospel is. Con showed from Galatians that the true gospel is justification by faith alone and any gospel that entails faith + works is a false gospel. Pro made no attempt to refute this argument. Instead, he merely affirmed that faith (or grace) + works is what the LDS Church teaches. So Con wins the debate.
Posted by Wilford_Hester 5 months ago
Wilford_Hester
@wmickas, I just debated this! Why not just read the debate?
Posted by wmickas 5 months ago
wmickas
Wilord_Hester I would like to debate this topic with you
Posted by Wilford_Hester 5 months ago
Wilford_Hester
I really feel as if I wasn't given a fair chance to represent myself, given that buildingapologetics had the last word. But, congratulations! I am still fully convinced that
1: Mormons are Christians
2: Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior of the world
3: We can eventually become perfect, like God is now (we are not perfect now because of the Fall)

Thank you, my brother in Christ!
Posted by Wilford_Hester 5 months ago
Wilford_Hester
@buildingapologetics, you're not entirely correct on what you say about Muslims.
1: they believe in Allah and Mohammed as their leaders.
2: they believe in Christ but not as God. They believe that he was a prophet, but not the Lord of the Universe. That makes a substantial difference on why they are not Christians.
Posted by buildingapologetics 5 months ago
buildingapologetics
@ashtynC11770 However you fall on this issue, it is really more complex than that. Muslims believe in Christ, but they are not Christians. Also, according to Jesus Himself, most people will not be saved. He said the way is hard, the path is narrow, and those who pass by it are few that leads to eternal life. If we are to believe God's word, these issues certainly do matter.
Posted by ashtynC11770 5 months ago
ashtynC11770
most people are christans and mormons it dosn"t mater
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by philochristos 5 months ago
philochristos
Wilford_HesterbuildingapologeticsTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: My RFD is in the comments.