The Instigator
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
RepublicanMan
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Are Roman Catholics Christians?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/5/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,501 times Debate No: 54044
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (22)
Votes (1)

 

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Roman Catholicism is a religion which pretends to be Christian. Many proofs show it to be a false religion inventted to gain money and power in the world, and not Christian.
RepublicanMan

Pro

I would like to first point out that 'Roman Catholicism' in of itself is a sect of the Christian faith. It is not a false religion...How is there even such a thing as a false religion? How does one determine if a religion is false or not? And how is a religion 'invented to gain money'? Are you talking about the money that the church gained? Roman Catholicism was a religion that existed hundreds of years ago, yes, the church made a lot of money. However, all forms of organized religion make money from donations and "offerings". But who would "make up" a religion just to collect money from believers? Roman Catholic churches were known for being highly bribable people, but every innocent organization can be bribed with minimal effort. Is this your attempt to say that Catholics are the only ones who identify as people who want money? Because if so, that's not true. Who would say no to money? Roman Catholicism is a sect of the Christian faith as I had already pointed out, but no one religion is money-based (regardless of stereotypes). Actually, Roman Catholicism is a form of religion really based around the saints and prophets of God as described in the Gospel.

If it were up to me, there wouldn't be any church at all, because anywhere you pray is "church". An organized religion corrupts the teachings of the holy books of different faith. I mean, the Holy Bible states things that some people cherry-pick and choose to ignore. It's safe to say that no one truly understands the concept of Christianity properly, money can override anyone with temptation.

Next Challenge Please.
Debate Round No. 1
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

The question of this debate is "are Roman Catholics Christians?" and I am taking the con postion. A false religion is one that is not true. Catholicism is not true for many reasons. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life....". John 14:6 We can compare a religion to Him and see if it is true or false according to how it agrees or disagrees with Him. If the religion is contrary to the Jesus Christ, then we know the religion if false because He is "........the truth........".

Pro seems to agree that money is a corrupting influence in organized religion. That is not the main point of the debate. Closer to the debate topic, Con states "Roman Catholicism is a form of religion really based around the saints and prophets of God as described in the Gospel." Here is my contention. Being a Christian is all about Jesus Christ. The religion of Roman Catholicism is all about Catholic dogma. Being a Christian is knowing God through Jesus Christ, it is not following rules and guidelines to be religious. Jesus Christ is a person, not a religion. Knowing God through Jesus Christ is a relationship in reality, Catholicism is a religion which incorporates themes and persons of the Bible The Jesus of Catholicism is not the Jesus of the Bible, the same as Mary of the Bible is not the same Mary revered in Catholicism.
Islam claims to speak of Jesus of the Bible also, but the Jesus of the Bible is a different Jesus contrived to fit the Muslim religion the same as the Jesus of Catholicism is a Jesus contrary to the Lord Jesus Christ, even though con says "jesus is Lord". Jesus said many would say to Him, "Lord, Lord.......have we not in thy name done many wonderful works?....." and He will say to them, ......I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22, 23)

One of the proofs that Catholics are not Christians is that their priests and top leader (the Pope) are held to be replacements for Jesus Christ in the world. The Catholics hold their priests and Pope to be mediators (as well as Mary) and claim they have the authority of Jesus Christ on earth. The Bible clearly states ".....there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Again referring to John 14:6, Jesus said ".......no man comes to the Father but by me." He is the only way. True Christians do not go to God through any mortal officer. True Christians rely on nobody and nothing other than Jesus Christ as their salvation from sin, death, and fire of hell.

Roman Catholics are taught that they cannot be sure they are forgiven and going to heaven. Jesus Christ clearly and simply stated in John 5:24 "He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath (has) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is (current tense) passed from death unto life." This small number of examples show why Catholics are not Christians. There are many more ways Catholicism contradicts Jesus Christ.
RepublicanMan

Pro

Rebuttal:
My point in my previous argument was that you had made a claim that Roman Catholicism is all about the wealth which is false. Any form of organized religion can draw in money or be be bribed easily by money.

[1] Roman Catholicism: Roman Catholicism is a religion that is a sect of the Christian religion. There are several kinds of Christians in the world, as provable by the given sects. Here are a few examples to kick-start: Episcopal, Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal. These religious are all sub-religions of the same faith.

Christian >> Catholic>>Roman Catholic

[2] The sub-religion of Roman Catholicism is simply the religion by which follows the Bishop of Rome (the Pope). The Church Hierarchy ("ranking system") is described best as this: 1) Pope 2) Arc-Pope 3) Bishops & Cardinals 4) Priests & Nuns

Roman Catholicism's literal definition is "the branch of Christianity headed by the Pope." As described in many definitions that can be found online, Priests and Bishops 'govern' the Roman Catholic Church.

[1] http://catholic-resources.org...

[2]http://www.merriam-webster.com...

As stated in my second source, the Roman Catholic faith has more than one billion members. This does not support the idea of a "fake" religion, nor a religion "trying to exist". It only supports my case claiming that Roman Catholics are indeed Christians.
Debate Round No. 2
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Control, power, wealth........that is why Catholicism was started, trying to take control in competition wiht the followers of Jesus who were called Christians.....a term probably coined by unbelievers. But again, that is not the theme or question of the debate. The debate is "are Roman Catholics Christians", and I say they are not and you are supposed to take the con position. The debate is not about money.

A true Christian does not follow or practice a religion. A true Christian is one who has been bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. The full price was paid to secure the believers pardon so the true Christian relies on nothing but the Saviour for eternal life. A true Christian knows for sure that his sins have been paid for in full and his home in heaven is secured and assured by the Saviour. A fake Christian follows a religion. A true Christian is forgiven and going to heaven. A fake Christian can't be sure they are going to heaven the moment their time is done in the world. You keep on saying your religion makes you a Christian. It can't. Never. The best you can be is a religious practitioner and that can never secure your pardon.

The true church (the body of Christ) has only one leader, one head, today, yesterday, and forever. His name is Jesus Christ, not the Pope. 1 Timothy 6:15 .........
which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

A true Christian does not follow religion. A true Christian knows God through Jesus Christ and is forgiven and has eternal life.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

A true Christian has eternal life. 1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

A true Christian does not trust in religion to get to heaven. A true Christian knows they are going to heaven through Jesus Christ alone. A true Christian is a child of God, a join-heir with Jesus. Romans 816 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ........

Roman Catholics are not Christians except in their self-asserting claims. The Religion of the Pope is not Jesus Christ. Being a Christian is not being a practitioner of religion. A serious Roman Catholic may be very religious and claim to be a Christian, but because they do not believe that the shed blood of Jesus was enough to secure their pardon, they do not really understand what being a Christian is........they merely follow a complicated religion that can never get them to heaven and they claim to be Christians but believing in religion that denies the eternal life Jesus promised to secure for all who believe on Him shows they are only religious people claiming to be Christians.
RepublicanMan

Pro

RepublicanMan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

what happened? I hope you have not gone off thinkng there is hope in purgatory
RepublicanMan

Pro

Rebuttal:
My point in my previous argument was that you had made a claim that Roman Catholicism is all about the wealth which is false. Any form of organized religion can draw in money or be be bribed easily by money.

[1] Roman Catholicism: Roman Catholicism is a religion that is a sect of the Christian religion. There are several kinds of Christians in the world, as provable by the given sects. Here are a few examples to kick-start: Episcopal, Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal. These religious are all sub-religions of the same faith.

Christian >> Catholic>>Roman Catholic

[2] The sub-religion of Roman Catholicism is simply the religion by which follows the Bishop of Rome (the Pope). The Church Hierarchy ("ranking system") is described best as this: 1) Pope 2) Arc-Pope 3) Bishops & Cardinals 4) Priests & Nuns

Roman Catholicism's literal definition is "the branch of Christianity headed by the Pope." As described in many definitions that can be found online, Priests and Bishops 'govern' the Roman Catholic Church.

[1] http://catholic-resources.org...

[2]http://www.merriam-webster.com...

As stated in my second source, the Roman Catholic faith has more than one billion members. This does not support the idea of a "fake" religion, nor a religion "trying to exist". It only supports my case claiming that Roman Catholics are indeed Christians.
Debate Round No. 4
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

The Roman Catholic church makes false claims pretending to be Christian. I have substantiated this assertion enough for any reasonable person to see that the religion of Roman Catholicism under the Pope is not the faith of Jesus Christ who is the only head of His church. Con is ignoring the differences I have pointed out between the faith of Jesus Christ and the religion of Catholicism under the Pope. Con is trying to explain how the Pope asserts his position while ignoring the differeces between the faith of Jesus Christ and the religion of the Pope. Con seems sincere in turning a blind eye to the fact that Jesus repeatedly promised eternal life to those who trust Him. This is because Con is following a religion that forbids him from believing without doubt that he will go to heaven the moment his time under the current death sentence is finsihed. Roman Catholicism constrains it's followers to pursue a never ending and expensive chain of works and rituals that can never secure eternal life as Jesus promsed to those who walk with Him in faith. Christianity is knowing God through Jesus Christ, Catholicism is a religion of good works and rituals that enslaves it's followers and makes merchandise of them to support the state religion of the Vatican. Being a Christian is not following a religion. Being a Christian is having eternal life now through Jesus Christ with no need of a Pope's approval or endorsement and no need of any woman (Mary) to boss or guide Jesus. The Catholic Church is false Christianity. Roman Catholicism is not Christian...it's fake Christianity.........it's religion. Being a Christian is knowing God personally through jesus Christ.....it's a relationship in reality, not a religion to practice. Roman Catholicism is a religion that pretends to be Christian. It has a false Jesus who is subject to a false Queen of Heaven. There is no queen of heaven!!!.......Mary did not exist before she was concieved as a human being with sinfull blood from her earthly father, and Mary died as a sinner and while I do believe she is in heaven, it is only as a sinner saved by grace, only a woman. Jesus never called her "mother". Jesus called her "woman" because that is all she was. People called her the mother of Jesus because they were looking at it in human terms and she was only human. The Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the Mary of the Bible....The Mary of Roman Catholicism is a sham from hell which plays a large role in enslaving Catholics in religion that has no sure hope. Con will probably ignore the reasons I gave showing Roman Catholicism is fake Christianity.

Cathoicism is contrary to the words and promises of Jesus Christ so it cannot be Christian. Yes money tends to corrupt organizations. Roman Catholicism is nothing but an attempt of a group of men to propell themselves to high postions of power in the world and they have done a pretty good job of it.......conning millions into paying them money
RepublicanMan

Pro

RepublicanMan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
thanks Sagey, you are correct, I could have made a much stronger argument by pointing out the similarity of paganism and Catholicism, but if I were to take this approach I would have gone back past paganism to ancient Babylonian religion which idolized Nimrod and his mother from which all the the symbolisms of the Catholic church originated and can be traced back to. If you want to see the real history and origin of Catholicism and how the Queen of Heaven appears in so many religikons of the world, I recommend "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop, You will also see how the symbolisms of religion in India as well as paganism are proven to have origininated in ancient Babylon where God confused the language of the human race after the great flood.

I like to keep things simple if I can. The book by Alexander Hislop is extremely scholarly and well documented. I took the simple logic approach trying to point out the fraud of Catholicism claiming to be Christian. The gospel is so simple a child can understand....we are all sinners, we all deserve to die and burn in hell, God loves us so much that He gave Himself to pay for our sins, and He rose from the grave and will come in to you and save you if you will only believe on Him and ask Him to save you. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" It's so simple a child can understand, but for many adults they think it's too good to be true.......we can be forgiven and know we are going to heaven and have eternal life now.......even you.......even me.......whosoever will, let him come and drink of the waters of life freely says the Lord.

Thank you for your gentlemanly conduct and comments in your vote here, and thank you for your vote.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
thanks Sagey, you are correct, I could have made a much stronger argument by pointing out the similarity of paganism and Catholicism, but if I were to take this approach I would have gone back past paganism to ancient Babylonian religion which idolized Nimrod and his mother from which all the the symbolisms of the Catholic church originated and can be traced back to. If you want to see the real history and origin of Catholicism and how the Queen of Heaven appears in so many religikons of the world, I recommend "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop, You will also see how the symbolisms of religion in India as well as paganism are proven to have origininated in ancient Babylon where God confused the language of the human race after the great flood.

I like to keep things simple if I can. The book by Alexander Hislop is extremely scholarly and well documented. I took the simple logic approach trying to point out the fraud of Catholicism claiming to be Christian. The gospel is so simple a child can understand....we are all sinners, we all deserve to die and burn in hell, God loves us so much that He gave Himself to pay for our sins, and He rose from the grave and will come in to you and save you if you will only believe on Him and ask Him to save you. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" It's so simple a child can understand, but for many adults they think it's too good to be true.......we can be forgiven and know we are going to heaven and have eternal life now.......even you.......even me.......whosoever will, let him come and drink of the waters of life freely says the Lord.

Thank you for your gentlemanly conduct and comments in your vote here, and thank you for your vote.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
thanks Sagey, you are correct, I could have made a much stronger argument by pointing out the similarity of paganism and Catholicism, but if I were to take this approach I would have gone back past paganism to ancient Babylonian religion which idolized Nimrod and his mother from which all the the symbolisms of the Catholic church originated and can be traced back to. If you want to see the real history and origin of Catholicism and how the Queen of Heaven appears in so many religikons of the world, I recommend "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop, You will also see how the symbolisms of religion in India as well as paganism are proven to have origininated in ancient Babylon where God confused the language of the human race after the great flood.

I like to keep things simple if I can. The book by Alexander Hislop is extremely scholarly and well documented. I took the simple logic approach trying to point out the fraud of Catholicism claiming to be Christian. The gospel is so simple a child can understand....we are all sinners, we all deserve to die and burn in hell, God loves us so much that He gave Himself to pay for our sins, and He rose from the grave and will come in to you and save you if you will only believe on Him and ask Him to save you. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" It's so simple a child can understand, but for many adults they think it's too good to be true.......we can be forgiven and know we are going to heaven and have eternal life now.......even you.......even me.......whosoever will, let him come and drink of the waters of life freely says the Lord.

Thank you for your gentlemanly conduct and comments in your vote here, and thank you for your vote.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
If you get saved, the truth is simple to see. You are complicating yourself trying to avoid the fact that you deserve to die and burn in hell, aren't you? No ad-hominem offense intended. This is a direct personal question to you in an un-adhiminen lighthearted but serious manner......the question is, if you die today, are you sure without doubt that your sins are forgiven and you are going to heaven? If you can't unequivocally say yes to this question and explain how you are sure, then you need to get saved or get assurance that you are saved........if you are not saved, you have one foot in the grave and one foot on thin ice with the fire of hell melting the ice under that foot.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
I'm not concerned about ad homomens, I'm concerned about not compromising in standing on the truth.
Posted by theWRITER007 3 years ago
theWRITER007
I need to get saved? Just as a general debate tactic, do not directly address the person, only the argument. Talking directly to the person may be taken as ad hominem, or against a person. I did go to a Roman Catholic school. But my mom is Protestant. Just so you know. I personally DO agree more with Protestant teaching, and I DO have a small problem with the politics of the papacy, but that is personal. It has nothing to do what I think or where I stand with this debate. And neither does it matter where you stand. The only thing that matters is the actual argument, and for the sake of your argument, I really recommend not using "you" or "I".

I understand that Catholicism has a "shady past." In fact, the Human Odyssey (humanity) itself has much not to be proud for. I studied Church History in my school, learning much of the bad, including the Crusades, the Inquisition, and period of the Anti-pope, and my father (Hindu) studied under a bishop at one point, and he learned much about the past corruption as well.

But you are trying to say that if a religion has a bad past, then it is bad. All religion is really a strength in numbers, and it gets very political as far as humans are involved. You try to attack the faith, which is really not quite "attack-able" with individuals, by attacking the shady history. OF COURSE power has been abused, but this is not because of the faith. It is because Catholics are only human.

One cannot attack an entire group based on the faults of the few.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
If the proofs I gave are not enough, probably nothing will ever be enough for you to see that Roman Catholics are christians only according to a generalized definition made by people who don't realize they do not know what it is to truly be a Christian. That was a pretty fair assessment of the debate, but the reason you are not totally agreeing with me is most likely because you need to get saved. If you come to know Jesus Christ personally as He is, the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and KING OF all kings, if you receive Him as your Saviour and are born of HIs Spirit, if you know God the Father through God the son, you will know He took your death so you died with Him on the cross and He will be your life and you will have eternal life, ,knowing your sins are forgiven and you are going to heaven. A true Christion is saved. A Romn Catholic is not saved Catholicism forbids it followers from certainty of heaven calling this the sin of presumption. Catholicism is a dark religion of idolatry. It is not Christian. For more indept information about Catholicism and it's history, practices, and teachings I recommend http://www.chick.com.... I hope you prove me wrong when I said that if the arguments I gave are not enough for you, probably nothing ever will be enough.......brace yourself if you are going to read in detail at the recommended website.............the facts and history of Catholicism is not pretty stuff.
Posted by theWRITER007 3 years ago
theWRITER007
From what I have seen:
The Pro side arguing that Roman Catholics are Christians seemed to have a more solid, sound argument, defining the actual idea of Roman Catholicism. Con, however, had strong statements but did not seem to have strong backup for the arguments except by the argument on the Pope and how people do not need authority to come to God, as stated in the Bible. However, con also had multiple attacks disregarding that all religions get money. Con seemed to say that true Christianity is the only way and that Catholicism is a false religion. Big mistake: religions are false in one and only one aspect: they are humans in big numbers, much like a political force. Also, con had too much personal opinion in his arguments than some solid, valid arguments, taking his own definition of "a true Christian" than the accepted, general definition.
In the end, Pro seemed to have a stronger argument, and Con could have had better, more objective backup.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Are you sure you want to debate this topic with me, Cyincal dio....?
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
I do not pray to the Bible and I do not pray to the cross. I am cucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me and the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.

The claim of the Catholic Chiuch to hold the unbroken line from Peter and Jesus is a false claim. Yes Jesus gave Peter the keys. The problem with Catholics is they claim that was the only set of keys and they own them........therefore they claim to have the power over the whole world under the authority of Jesus Christ which is nothing but a lie designed as an attempt to usurp Jesus Chrst. Now the Pope claims to be the "Vicar" (embodyment) of Jesus Christ. The Pope is a sinner like you. Jesus promsed eternal life to all who believe on Him. The Catholic Church says you can't be sure you are going to heaven. Jesus says you can be sure. I'll go with Jesus and leave the Pope in the dust. You can go in the dust with the Pope if you want to.

Jesus promised His diciples He would never leave them or forsake them. He sent the Holy Spirit when He breathed on the disciples and told them to receive the Holy Ghost. He, God the Father, and God the Son are One. These three are one and these three agree in one. When I believed on Jesus and received Him as the Saviour by fatth, He came into me by His Holy Spirit and i was born again, born of His Spirt and now I am His child, His property bought and paid for by His blood, my sins are all paid for and I am forgiven and I am a joint-heir of heaven with Jesus Christ. God is my heavenly Father. I am a Christian. Roman Catholics are idolators and their idos can't pay for their sins.

I have studied enough Catholic history and teachings and not been fooled by any of it. They used to kill people like me who believe they are saved and going to heaven, and they would do it now if they could.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
LifeMeansGodIsGoodRepublicanManTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con only just had a few points that Pro failed to counter: Con could have made a much stronger argument by citing the Paganism of the Catholic church (Rosary Beads, Idolatry, Fatima, etc...) but didn't. Con scored the conduct vote from Pro forfeiting.