The Instigator
SegBeg
Pro (for)
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The Contender
QueenDaisy
Con (against)
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Are SJW's ruining Marvel comics?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/31/2017 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,093 times Debate No: 103740
Debate Rounds (4)
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Pro

The first round is acceptance. I will be arguing that SJWs (Social Justice Warriors) are ruining Marvel Comics. My opponent will arguing that SJWs are not ruining Marvel comics- and if possible, how they're making it better.

Good luck opponent!
QueenDaisy

Con

I will treat "SJWs" as being synonymous with "Modern feminists/feminism", and will oppose the motion that "modern feminism is ruining Marvel comics".

I would like to point out that though there are individuals who consider themselves feminists whose ideas would ruin Marvel comics if they were to implement them, those ideas are:
1) Not being implemented.
2) Not necessarily representative of actual feminism.

I see no reason to expand further than this, yet, as the burden of proof is on Pro.
Debate Round No. 1
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Pro

Well when I talk about SJW's, I mean a whole bunch of people:
Feminists
Gay Rights activists
Civil Rights Activists (basically BLM and all that stuff)
Leftists

When I say SJW's are ruining Marvel comics, I mean they want to change everything about beloved characters. In terms of feminism, there a few examples of how feminism has snuck its way into Marvel Comics: There's a comic strip where Iceman is trying to protect a woman and she dismisses him by telling her he's "mansplaining" I'm like WTF? He was just trying to protect her. Even with Iceman, making him say "an attractive young woman like you needs someone to protect..." Are they TRYING to make men out to be sexist man pigs? Seems like they are?
I used to describe myself as a feminist, but after seeing so man negative comments about third wave feminism and then seeing these comments were right: hating on men, dismissing anything they have to say, treating the like dirt, the double standards, I stopped describing myself as a feminist because I'm sorry, what is being displayed in Marvel Comics IS representative of feminism. I see it all them time in the media and on the internet.

If you're not convinced: Maybe this will help

https://ageofshitlords.com...
QueenDaisy

Con

I'd like my opponent to link the comic they discussed involving Iceman, for context.

"Ageofshitlords" is not a reliable citation, as it's a few people's opinions and nothing more. Also, look at the types of adverts that appear on that link to understand just who the kinds of people writing these articles are.

The vast majority of Marvel comics do not feature feminism as a common theme, and on the off time it is explicitly mentioned, it's brief and doesn't considerably affect the plot of the comic. "SJWs are ruining Marvel comics" is at best an extreme hyperbole that applies to a few edge cases, while for the most part, is utter nonsense.
Debate Round No. 2
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Pro

"I'd like my opponent to link the comic they discussed involving Iceman, for context."
"Ageofs**tlords" is not a reliable citation, as it's a few people's opinions and nothing more. Also, look at the types of adverts that appear on that link to understand just who the kinds of people writing these articles are.
The point of the article was for you to look at the comics strips and make an opinion for yourself. Nevermind the writers writing.
"The vast majority of Marvel comics do not feature feminism as a common theme, and on the off time it is explicitly mentioned, it's brief and doesn't considerably affect the plot of the comic. "
I wish this were true, but unfortunately it is not. First it was replacing Thor with a woman and having her punch Absorbing Man for quote "saying feminism life it's a four letter word" and letting the villain Titania (Absorbing Man's wife) go simply because they both are women. We also have Mockingbird in her solo comics, complaining about how many of the world's greatest heroes have Y chromosomes (when that is simply not true- there are MANY female superheroes that she could have looked up to as a child). This feminist agenda has been used so much I cringe at the thought of "girlpower." People do not read comics for politics, we read comics for entertainment and good stories. It was clear that the writer of that Mockingbird comic wanted to push an agenda. They even pushed aside Tony Stark as Iron Man in favour of Riri Williams- a BLACK woman (who is totally a Mary Sue).
""SJWs are ruining Marvel comics" is at best an extreme hyperbole that applies to a few edge cases, while for the most part, is utter nonsense."
Tell that to comic sales. Ever since they made Captain America a Nazi (they recently retconned that thank god!) Marvel's comic sales have plummeted and the reason has been because of bad storytelling due to the writers not being interested in telling a good story and wanting to instead focus on "diversity" not don't get me wrong- I'm all for diversity, but not when it's forced or used to push an agenda. It is not that people do not want to see female superheroes, gay superheroes or superheroes of colour- it's that we don't want them continously replacing established, long going characters just for the sake of it. Would you like it if beloved femal superheroes like Captain Marvel, Storm, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, the Invisible Woman, Wasp and Spider Woman were all of a sudden changed into males?



QueenDaisy

Con

I'd like to ask my opponent what their objections to the Iceman comic they've linked us to actually are- from what I can tell, Iceman is being kinda creepy (touching her on the shoulder when she's clearly uncomfortable, and his hand is also made of ice).
I think it may also be clearer with more context- who is she? Does she have superpowers in her own right? (In which case, Iceman is being incredibly condescending by acting like she needs protecting). Even if not, is she not entitled to simply tell him she doesn't want his protection?

The Thor comic is clear- she's punching him for robbery, but she's also mad about him being rude about feminism. Robbery is a perfectly good reason to punch someone.

What's wrong with Riri Williams? Superheroes get recast all the time, and with Robert Downey Jr retiring from the MCU and the likelihood of Infinity War causing the MCU to reset, it's actually a pretty good idea to have new interpretations of old characters- Riri Williams, female Thor etc.
Think of it this way- why was "Spiderman Homecoming" so much better than "The Amazing Spiderman"? I think one of the many reasons is that "The Amazing Spiderman" was extremely similar to the "Spiderman" with Toby Maguire- Uncle Ben's death didn't hit hard because we knew it was coming. Comics fall foul of the same thing- when it's time to recast a character, making them more or less a carbon copy of the previous one is boring- mix it up a bit!

"Would you like it if beloved femal superheroes like Captain Marvel, Storm, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, the Invisible Woman, Wasp and Spider Woman were all of a sudden changed into males?"

Frankly I wouldn't care, and nor should you care if the same happens the other way around- if a bunch of male characters get recast.

"Marvel's comic sales have plummeted "

This is a factual, testable, and verifiable claim- you need a source for it. I tried to search for such a source myself, and couldn't find one. Here's a similar one- let's look at Marvel's stock prices between 1996 and 2009 (when Disney bought Marvel: https://www.google.co.uk...)

Marvel's stock value considerably increased more than double over the 13 years we have data for: http://www.1stock1.com...

This does not, suggest, that Marvel in general has been ruined by modern feminism- if anything, that the opposite is true. Unless Pro can provide a reliable source to show that comic sales have plummeted recently, their case should not be taken seriously.

So, to recap:
1) The vast majority of Marvel comics do not feature feminism as a theme at all. Therefore, to suggest that "SJWs are ruining Marvel comics" is unfounded.
2) The few times feminism is mentioned in Marvel comics, it's done so in an appropriate way that doesn't detract from the storyline.
3) Recasting characters happens all the time, and there's nothing wrong with swapping a character's gender.
4) Pro's claim that comic sales have reduced because of feminism means nothing without a source, and looking at Marvel's stock price, the opposite seems true.
Debate Round No. 3
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Pro

I'd like to ask my opponent what their objections to the Iceman comic they've linked us to actually are- from what I can tell, Iceman is being kinda creepy (touching her on the shoulder when she's clearly uncomfortable, and his hand is also made of ice).

That's the point. WHY is he acting like that? It's almost as if the writers are TRYING to make us dislike him. Bobby may be a little immature at times, but that scene was just too much. It was pretty much forced in there so that the writers could talk about he "I don't need a MAN to protect me" narrative which in all honesty, is getting a little bit tiresome and cringey. Besides, even theough he was indeed being condescending, there was no need to go off on a feminist rant and scream "mansplain." she cold have just stopped at "I'm an adult. I don't need your protection!"

I think it may also be clearer with more context- who is she? Does she have superpowers in her own right? (In which case, Iceman is being incredibly condescending by acting like she needs protecting). Even if not, is she not entitled to simply tell him she doesn't want his protection?

She's just an ordinary woman. She has no powers. Despite me disagreeing with his actions, Iceman is RIGHT to want to protect her as without powers, she's a lot more vulnerable than he is. Yes she's entitled to reject his protection. All I'm pointing out is how ridiculous it was for her to go off on a "mansplaining" rant.

The Thor comic is clear- she's punching him for robbery, but she's also mad about him being rude about feminism. Robbery is a perfectly good reason to punch someone.

Punching him for robbery is one thing- but is it acceptable to punch someone for being "rude" about feminism?

What's wrong with Riri Williams? Superheroes get recast all the time, and with Robert Downey Jr retiring from the MCU and the likelihood of Infinity War causing the MCU to reset, it's actually a pretty good idea to have new interpretations of old characters- Riri Williams, female Thor etc.

There's nothing inherently wrong with her. It's just the fact that she completely replaced Tony Stark- a beloved Marvel comic character and one of the most iconic characters There's nothing wrong with taking up the mantle of another superhero. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with her personality. Her ego is bigger than Stark's. She was actually UPSET she was not discriminated against in the STEM industry. It's almost as if she WANTS to be a victim.

Trust me, very few people care about Riri Williams- most people want Tony Stark. Very few people care about a female Thor- they want the REAL Thor- Thor Odinson. Thor is not a title- it's a NAME- Jane Foster is not Thor- she is Jane Foster. She just wields the power of Thor. Besides, turning Thor into a female was pointless. There already is a female Thor- Thor Girl. They could have used her instead of replacing the real Thor with his on and off love interest.

Think of it this way- why was "Spiderman Homecoming" so much better than "The Amazing Spiderman"? I think one of the many reasons is that "The Amazing Spiderman" was extremely similar to the "Spiderman" with Toby Maguire- Uncle Ben's death didn't hit hard because we knew it was coming.

This is a completely subjective topic. I personally prefer Spiderman Homecoming to the previous installments though there were some parts the original installments did right that Homecoming didn't. One was chaning the race of a few characters namely Flash Thompson and Liz Allan. I didn't really care much for Liz Allan being mixed race rather than the white blonde she is in the comics, but I REALLY did not like Homecoming's Flash Thompson- I get it, they were trying to be more realistic about modern bullies, but you could have at least cast someone slightly larger than Tom Holland and more intimidating. I didn't find this Flash intimidating at all (though I did love his "Penis Parker" joke).

Every Spiderman story HAS to have an Uncle Ben. They might not have mentioned him in Spiderman Homecoming but who's to say they won't do so in future films. Uncle Ben is the whole reason Peter BECAME Spiderman. Without him, he would not Spiderman.

Comics fall foul of the same thing- when it's time to recast a character, making them more or less a carbon copy of the previous one is boring- mix it up a bit!

I agree. I'm glad they skipped the whole origin story and Uncle Ben's death in Homecoming. But with great risks comes great consequences. I still would like them to give a mention to Uncle Ben in future Spiderman films as he's a core part of Spiderman's character development. There's nothing wrong with mixing things up but sometimes bad things happen whe you stray too far from the source material.

"Would you like it if beloved femal superheroes like Captain Marvel, Storm, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, the Invisible Woman, Wasp and Spider Woman were all of a sudden changed into males?"

Frankly I wouldn't care, and nor should you care if the same happens the other way around- if a bunch of male characters get recast.

Are you seriously telling comic fans that they shouldn't care that some of their favourite heroes have been drastically changed? By saying, that you are invalidating their concerns. They have a right to be upset. Are you saying that if they made Captain America a woman in the movies, people shouldn't care? Are you saying if they made Peter Parker into Petra Parker- a black female in the movies, people shouldn't care? Heck yes they should. Who are you to tell fans what they should and should not care about?

"Marvel's comic sales have plummeted "

This is a factual, testable, and verifiable claim- you need a source for it. I tried to search for such a source myself, and couldn't find one. Here's a similar one- let's look at Marvel's stock prices between 1996 and 2009 (when Disney bought Marvel: https://www.google.co.uk......)

Marvel's stock value considerably increased more than double over the 13 years we have data for: http://www.1stock1.com......

Those statistics are only go up to 2009- nearly 10 years ago and 6 years before All-New All-Different Marvel. So those sources aren't exactly valid.

I would like to ask my opponent if they read Marvel comics. I am just a bit curious

QueenDaisy

Con

"WHY is he acting like that?"

Well, characters act like that in comics and films all the time, and to a lesser extent, some do in real life, too. It's not just been actively forced in to make Iceman dislikable like Pro suggests, but rather it's simply a typical way a superherp acts.

"Besides, even theough he was indeed being condescending, there was no need to go off on a feminist rant and scream "mansplain." "

Perhaps there wasn't (though I don't think it was completely inappropriate to do so, either) but can it really be said that it RUINS the comic? Is that not, at best, an unfounded hyperbole?

"Punching him for robbery is one thing- but is it acceptable to punch someone for being "rude" about feminism?"

It doesn't matter- she punched a robber. No, it wouldn't have been okay to hit someone for being rude about feminism, but she had other reasons to hit him and so it's fine.

"Her ego is bigger than Stark's. She was actually UPSET she was not discriminated against in the STEM industry. It's almost as if she WANTS to be a victim."

You haven't really established this. Without many examples of Riri Williams acting undesirably, your assertion is invalid.

Pro got sidetracked on my point about Spiderman- my point is that superheroes get recast all the time, and that changing the characters and the stories slightly is a good thing- it gets boring if you don't (hence "The Amazing Spiderman" fell flat).

"Are you seriously telling comic fans that they shouldn't care that some of their favourite heroes have been drastically changed? "

Yes. Yes, I am saying that- it's a chance to make a new, interesting take on old characters and whenever that's been done before, it's been a complete success. There's no reason Captain America can't be a woman or Spiderman can't be a woman- in fact, that just sounds like an opportunity to create a refreshingly new story.

"Those statistics are only go up to 2009"

They only go up to 2009 because that's when Marvel was bought by Disney and so their stocks were dissolved.

Yes, I do read Marvel comics.

So, to summarise my case:

1) Feminism rarely features as a theme in Marvel comics, and when it does, it's done in a low-key way which fits well into the plot.
2) Stock values indivate that Marvel's comics have only improved in terms of sales recvently, contrary to Pro's unfounded claims.
3) Recasting characters- including changing their race, gender etc.- is a normal part of a comic book character, and is basically a good thing.
4) A few isolated examples of feminism being slightly annoying in Marvel comics is not enough to establish the claim that "SJW's are ruining Marvel comics".

Hence, the motion should be deemed to have failed. Please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
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