The Instigator
thesouthwillrise
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Domr
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Are White Southerners a nation?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Domr
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/7/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,241 times Debate No: 60132
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (2)

 

thesouthwillrise

Pro

Hello. I believe that White Southerners, or just Southrons, are a nation based on the definition of the word: Nation. a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

This clearly means that the United States is not, and cannot be, a nation, because Americans can be any color of skin, language, religion, history, and certainly not culture.

The Southern people, on the other hand, DO share a common descent, being Anglo-Celtic. We have a common history, an example being the Civil War. We share a common culture, with the exceptions of South Florida, black-majority cities, East Texas, and New Orleans, the reason being large-scale immigration, and we have a shared language:English, and we inhabit a certain territory: The South.

The League of The South, a Southern Nationalist organization, has more information on the subject. The following video is of the LS President, Dr. Michael Hill:http://southernnationalist.com...

Here are some websites on the subject: leagueofthesouth.com, dixienet.org, and southernnationalist.com

So, the Southern people are indeed, a nation. Thank you in advance to my opponent.
Domr

Con

I would like to thank Pro for making this debate. While I whole heartedly DISAGREE with the definition of nation, as it is extremely selective, I think the US IS a nation, I will still argue the definition given before me.

"I believe that White Southerners, or just Southrons, are a nation based on the definition of the word: Nation. a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory."

Aggregate: (1)formed by the conjunction or collection of particulars into awhole mass or sum; total; combined: the aggregate amount ofindebtedness.

http://dictionary.reference.com...

This would simply mean the ENTIRE, or WHOLE, population.

By the definition given for nation, and consequently aggregate, if any one "White Southerner" is not of Anglo-Celtic descent, Pro has lost this debate.

Anglo-Celtic: "Anglo-Celtic people are those of British and Irish descent.[1] The concept is mainly relevant outside of Britain and Ireland, particularly in Australia but also in Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and the United States, where a significant diaspora is located."

http://en.wikipedia.org...


"Southern US" is commonly referring to the southeastern portion of the US. It moves from West Virginia all the way south, and Texas all the way east. A map is located in the link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org...




Jennifer Capriati, a tennis player is of italian descent, currently resides in West Chapel, Florida.

Florida is part of the "Southern United States", per the map listed, and its geographical position in the US. Those of Italian Descent are not Anglo-Celtic. Due to this difference in ancestry, it would be impossible to conisder the White Southernors a nation. (by your defintion)


This is merely one example, but I would strongly believe there are many "white southernors" of many different descents other than Anglo-Celtic.

I would be surprised to see any meaningful rebuttal at this point, but I truly hope to be proven wrong as this debate will last a few more rounds.

Good luck and back to you Pro.
Debate Round No. 1
thesouthwillrise

Pro

Regardless of the definition of aggregate, the United States still can not be a nation. When I say "Anglo-Celtic", what I mean is European, or White. We are not a homogeneous population, meaning that we are not all of the same race or ethnicity, and we do not have the same history due to immigration and westward expansion. This one sort of ties in with descent because the Native Americans have had a different history, so have the Mexicans, the Blacks, and the Northerners. We don't all have the same culture, obviously, cultural differences like Southern, Mexican, Californian, Yankee,Western, etc, can't be ignored. One might argue that there is indeed an "American culture", but that "culture" is nothing more than pop culture, which has no true value, as it is constantly changing. And finally, we don't all share the same language. Obviously, there is a large Spanish-speaking population in the Southwest, which again, ties in with ethnicity and culture, while, for the most part, the rest of America speaks English. So, when we are talking about the definition of nation, the Southern nation is a large aggregate of White Southerners who's people have lived in the South for centuries, who all share Southern culture, and who all speak English. You are confusing this with civic-nationalism, which says that if you are born into a country, (or as they say, "nation"), you are automatically a citizen of the "nation". This is why public school teachers say that the United States is "a 'nation' of immigrants". This could not be more paradoxical, because in order to be a part of a nation, you have to be related, in essence, to the nation. You can not change your nationality. What your citizenship is, is changeable, much like American "culture" is changeable. Just to also clarify, a nation does not have to govern itself. It does not even have to posses territory. All it must do to remain a nation is exist. There is a whole book about stateless nations that is fittingly called, "The Encyclopedia of The Stateless Nations."http://en.wikipedia.org...
Domr

Con

I stated I do not agree with your definition of "Nation". This is where my gripe belongs. However, per your rules in this debate, this is definition I must use for 'nation'

"Nation. a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory."

You are trying to argue the entire US is so different it cannot be considered a nation, yet the small, selective faction in the South is a nation?

So only because CERTAIN WHITE EUROPEANS live together in the South, they are now considered a nation...regardless of who else lives in that area with them?

This would defeat your entire point of the US not being a nation.

As of 2013, 77.7% of the US population is White.
http://quickfacts.census.gov...

Most of these White people come from European descent. The America History is part of the civil war, and many of them speak English. Most of the culture the US shares is Western. Therefore, based on your criteria for the South being a Nation, the US is also a nation.
http://en.wikipedia.org...


As you have decided to call the US, NOT a nation, then you must in turn be calling the South NOT a nation.

So which is it?



Debate Round No. 2
thesouthwillrise

Pro

"So only because CERTAIN WHITE EUROPEANS live together in the South, they are now considered a nation...regardless of who else lives in that area with them?"

White Southerners are a nation living alongside other nations. White Americans, be it Northern or Southern, are not a nation because, even though they are both White, the North has a different history, religious views, political views, accents, and different cultures. White Americans are a mega nation, if you will, that can be further subdivided into different cultural groups. Being related is only half of the requirements to be a nation.

The White Southern nation lives alongside Black Southerners, Mexicans, Cubans, and Haitians. This doesn't make White Southerners any less of a nation, it just means that they are not independent and/or self governing.

There is no such thing as a true American culture, because it varies by region. On the Wikipedia page for US culture the first sentence is

"The culture of the United States is primarily Western, but is influenced by Native American, African, Asian, Polynesian, and Latin American cultures." A culture cannot be made up of multiple cultures, or it is a melting pot culture, or pop culture, or no culture.

So the US has no unifying culture, not the same history per region, definitely not the same language, religion, political views, and we are obviously not all the same race. So the abstraction known as "American", is not a nation, but White Southerners are.
Domr

Con

As you can see, my opponent has not addressed his change in definition of "White southerners" from Anglo-Celtic to white European.

Changing this allows him to keep his premise of "The Southern people, on the other hand, DO share a common descent, being Anglo-Celtic" Changing rules after I have already argued the point is unfair and should be a large point deduction if not a total forfeit.

I have sufficienlty proved that White southerners, those who are White and living in the south are not a nation as some residents of the Southern US are not of Anglo-Celtic descent.

I am sure there are other white immigrants outside of Anglo-Celtic Descent, and European descent who live in Southerm Us. Micky Arison, owner of the Miami Heat , is of Asian descent and currently resides in Florida.

This is another White Southerner who does not fit your description, meaning White Southerners cannot be considered a nation per your definitions.


Debate Round No. 3
thesouthwillrise

Pro

"As you can see, my opponent has not addressed his change in definition."

I thought it was pretty obvious that "Anglo-Celtic" meant White.

You don't seem to understand that residence or citizenship does not determine nationality. The Asian man you referred to is not a part of the Southern nation just because he lives in Florida. I myself live in Indiana, but because I match the definition, I am a part of the Southern nation. I am a White male, my people have lived in the South for about 300 years, I practice Southern culture, and I speak English. Now let me give an example of someone who lives in the South but is not a part of the Southern nation: A White male, moved to the South from Massachusetts, no one in his family has ever lived in the South, he practices New England culture, and he speaks English, but has a very distinct accent. Which one do you think is a Southron?

My point is, whether or not you actually live in the US classified South is irrelevant. Your people have had to have been there for a considerable amount of time. If your people have never lived there, you cannot, and will not, ever become Southern.

"This is another White Southerner who does not fit your description."

No, he is an Asian "American" currently residing in Florida.
Domr

Con

"a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory."

My opponent is confirming his change in definition. After initially stating White southerners are of Anglo-Celtic descent, they are now seemingly anyone who is "White".

White is not a race, culture, or history. It is merely a skin color.

This argument is laughablee, and very different from the premise and definitions stated in round 1.

My opoonent has most recently stated:
"You don't seem to understand that residence or citizenship does not determine nationality."

This is a contradiction to the definition of White Southerners needing to inhabit a particular country or territory.

My opponent claims himself to be a White Southerner, but has admitted to not inhabiting the particular territory that is described as the "Southern US".

I have nothing more to argue at this point as I have successfully proven my opponent wrong, that White Southerners are not a nation.

His change in definitions and arguments to fit his point is ridiculous, and this debate should just be stopped now.
Debate Round No. 4
thesouthwillrise

Pro

"My opponent claims himself to be a White Southerner, but has admitted to not inhabiting the particular territory that is described as the "Southern US"."

You are forgetting that my ancestors were Southern, I practice Southern culture, I am White, and I speak English. (BTW I was born in Kentucky, I just moved to Indiana).

I am a Southerner who currently resides in Indiana. Take this for example: A Mexican man who immigrates from Mexico, gets US citizenship, but still practices Mexican culture and speaks Spanish is still a Mexican. You don't have to live within the cultural boundaries of the nation, you just have to do everything else.

"My opponent is confirming his change in definition. After initially stating White southerners are of Anglo-Celtic descent, they are now seemingly anyone who is "White"."

Again, I meant White by this, but apparently it is not obvious enough.

"This is a contradiction to the definition of White Southerners needing to inhabit a particular country or territory. "

You don't have to live in said nation forever. It's your people that have to be from there.

Southerner doesn't just mean to live in the South. You have to be from there and have people there to feel it is your native ground. Thousands of people immigrate to the South every year but Southerners they will not become, because they are not of Southern descent.
Domr

Con

Pro's opening:
" I believe that White Southerners, or just Southrons, are a nation based on the definition of the word: Nation. a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory."

"The Southern people, on the other hand, DO share a common descent, being Anglo-Celtic."

"... and we inhabit a certain territory: The South."

Pro's Second Round
"When I say "Anglo-Celtic", what I mean is European, or White"

Pro's Third Round
"The White Southern nation lives alongside Black Southerners, Mexicans, Cubans, and Haitians. This doesn't make White Southerners any less of a nation, it just means that they are not independent and/or self governing. "

Pro's Conclusion
"Southerner doesn't just mean to live in the South"


I would like the voters to read over these exceerts. Notice all of the contradictions and changes? This is un-debateable.

On two occasions Pro said that Southerners "inhabit" or per definition are "inhabiting" the "South". I was able to classify the Souther Us.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

*Now Pro has changed his mind and as long as you have "once lived there" or have had ancestors who live there, you are now part of this nation.


**The Anglo-Celtic requirement for the Southern US was accepted for "White Southerner". Pro decided Anglo-Celtic was too specific for his argument and chose to change it to just "White"...as ANglo-Celtic obviously means white.

In conclusion,

White Southerners are not a nation per the definitions given by Pro. I have proven him wrong, and he has resorted to changing definitions and requirements to fit his debate.

Pro has essentially forfeited this debate, and all points should go to Con.

Thank you.



Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Domr 3 years ago
Domr
This is in no way adding to my debate. Voters, please vote first before reading this if you think in anyway it will sway your vote. It is about the racism in this debate, and not in anyway supportive of my arguments.

....

Here are the requirements for your "White Southern Nation:
This is to show How Black people fit into this nation

"large aggregate of people united by common descent" - Blacks were born in the US Pre-Civil War
"history" - The Civil War
culture - They were forced into the plantation life by their owners, thus becoming a part of the culture.
"language" - English
"inhabiting a particular country or territory" - inhabited the same land as their owners in the South.

The only difference between White and Blacks is their skin color. This debate was racist from the beginning, and that is a barbaric way of thinking. Not only could you NOT successfully debate your points (without changing rules in your favor) You have displayed the serious problems that should be fixed by now in society, which is the segregation and blatant racism.
Posted by thesouthwillrise 3 years ago
thesouthwillrise
Anglo saxons were descended from Germany. Germany comprised of about half of Europe's current ethnicities.

Celts come from Iran and spread across the rest of Europe.

The only other ethnic group I can think of would be Russians, which are the eastern part of Europe.
Posted by thesouthwillrise 3 years ago
thesouthwillrise
Anglo saxons were descended from Germany. Germany comprised of about half of Europe's current ethnicities.

Celts come from Iran and spread across the rest of Europe.

The only other ethnic group I can think of would be Russians, which are the eastern part of Europe.
Posted by TruthHurts 3 years ago
TruthHurts
The shift from "Anglo-Celtic" to "White" is hilarious. There are literally hundreds of other ethnicities that are while, but not Anglo-Celtic, including one of the largest groups in the country, the Germans. Pro is comical.
Posted by thesouthwillrise 3 years ago
thesouthwillrise
nzlockie, just because you live or were born in the South does not make you Southern. Your people have had to be here for centuries.
Posted by thesouthwillrise 3 years ago
thesouthwillrise
Yes, that may be true, but you have to admit that at least the rural parts of southern and eastern Maryland are still Southern.
Posted by SocialistAtheistNutjob 3 years ago
SocialistAtheistNutjob
I resent the notion that Maryland is part of the south. The culture in Maryland is nothing like the culture in the south. This reminds me of a quote that goes "Maryland is a southern state filled with Northern people."
Posted by Domr 3 years ago
Domr
I apologize, this is the link to Jennifer Capriati, showing her current residence.

I will also post this next round.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by nzlockie 3 years ago
nzlockie
The problem with this debate is that there's really not much to argue here. You've already narrowed the nation to a group of people that conform to the definition. If I bring up the high numbers of German immigrants in Kentucky for example, despite the fact that they are White and Southern, you will say that they are not part of your nation. If I bring up the high number of Americans from the North who have moved to the South, you will also say they are not included in your nation. If I bring up White Southerners whose Daddies fought in the Civil War but who do not partake in what could be described as your "culture" - you STILL can argue that they are not included in your nation.
The only people who ARE included in your nation are the people who meet YOUR criteria. This means there is really nothing here to debate.

You should change your res to, "The USA is not a Nation." and use the same definition. That would be a hard debate for CON - but at least it would be arguable.
Posted by Pfalcon1318 3 years ago
Pfalcon1318
That is, assuming you include "of their own" in your resolution.

"Are white southerners a nation of their own?"
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 3 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
thesouthwillriseDomrTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro changed definitions as he lost.
Vote Placed by CountCheechula 3 years ago
CountCheechula
thesouthwillriseDomrTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Sniped...