The Instigator
firefury14620
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
AlwaysRight12345
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Are gender stereotypes present to the same degree for both males and females?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
AlwaysRight12345
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/27/2016 Category: People
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 310 times Debate No: 90281
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

firefury14620

Pro

To start off, I would like to say that I want to argue with a legitimate feminist, not someone who kind of agrees with me.

Career options are frequently thought of in conjunction with gender stereotypes. There are certain careers that are only appropriate for men, and vice versa. This causes different definitions of success in the workforce. For a woman, success is defined as being able to acquire a husband and build a family. For men, it is defined as having power in society. A current example of this is the fashion industry. For a woman, to be in the fashion industry is an amazing accomplishment, but for men, it is said to be "gay" or "inappropriate" for a man to be involved in this industry. Another example is women in STEM careers. Women are sparsely found in most STEM careers such as engineering and computer design. When women are involved in this profession, they are told that it is wrong for a woman to be doing the physical work the men do. This is a gross example of how far we haven"t progressed in the last few hundred years.
Jane Austen starts off her famous book Pride and Prejudice with this line, "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife." This sets up a stereotype that men are supposed to seek out a wife and women are supposed to wait for a man to seek her out. This is still partially true in today"s society. It is considered standard for the man to propose marriage and the first to ask the woman out on a date. Women are supposed to wait until they are desired by a man to marry or start dating. Another thing this brings in is the idea of stay-at-home parents. Mothers are traditionally seen as the parent who doesn"t work, if there is one, but a father that doesn"t work is seen as unmanly and disrespectful to the wife. It is a success for the man to propose to the woman, and it is a success for the mother to stay home all day with the children. This is a seriously stereotype that is not often true anymore. The same stereotype was present in Austen"s time. The women were not supposed to work and they were not supposed to instigate a relationship with a man. This stereotype has stood the test of time and doesn"t seem to be going away any time soon.
Society today believes that it has become more gender equivalent, but there are many issues that still need to be addressed. Big news on gender equality currently is the feminist movement. This has helped females get more respect, but has not touched on the stereotypes for males. Men are expected to be strong and manly. They aren"t allowed to cry or show emotion. Not all men are like that, and they are automatically excluded from the "success" department. This causes some holes to appear even with the feminist movement moving so rapidly. These stereotypes make it hard for males who are emotional to be accepted and for males who are into "girly" things to be taken seriously. This causes some problems for the men and women both facing these stereotypes in their everyday lives.
Gender stereotypes about success have changed very minutely from what they were hundreds of years ago. Women have more rights than back then, but the stereotypes, for men and women, still stand true. Gender stereotypes have definitely stood the test of time.
AlwaysRight12345

Con

I would like to begin by clarifying that the BoP is on Pro in this debate to prove that women are valued exactly the same as men in modern society. That is the specified resolution.

I will start with my first argument of the debate and then go on to show how they inherently and definitively refute my opponent's (sourceless) claims.

To quote the White House, " In 2013, the median woman working fulltimeall year earned 78 percent of what the median manworking full-time all year earned. Phrased differently,she earned 78 cents for every dollar he did. Although this gap generally narrowed between the 1970s and 1990s, it has largely stopped narrowing and has remained between 76 and 78 cents since 2001." [1] Even if men are stereo-typically barred from jobs in the fashion industry or from being nurses, women statistically earn less of what men do in modern society, which is a much higher degree of stereotyping.

My opponent cited some so called equal gender stereotypes career-wise. As I discussed two lines above, this is not fitting to the resolution as the stereotypes are inequal and biased towards men to such a degree they are paid twenty percent more. He also cited Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. It goes without saying that Pride and Prejudice is one person's account from over one hundred years ago. To call this modern literature is to say we can put dinosaurs in the zoo. My opponent cannot truly say that we should take evidence of modern society from a novel written that long ago. He said that males cannot be emotional or girly and women similarly cannot act masculine. The only "girly" example my opponent cited is crying which nobody should be doing all the time or in public anyways.

My opponent ends his argument with the argument that gender stereotypes have changed very little over time. This proves me correct, as gender stereotypes have been inherently anti-female throughout the course of time. It is also blatantly false, as suffrage and jobs for women are now existent.

It goes without saying that the reason feminism exists in the place of masculinism is because it is a legitimate cause. For the only two examples of masculinism, we can look to my opponent and the Male Men in the satirical TV show Parks and Recreation.

Sources:
1. https://www.whitehouse.gov...
Debate Round No. 1
firefury14620

Pro

There are many holes in my opponent's argument that shows that all of his information is grossly outdated. First, the wage gap is mostly because of the different jobs that women and men tend to have. Second, there is no wage gap within the same position. Another thing I would like to point out is that I am a girl arguing this matter, not a guy. Another point that I made was the stereotypes for MEN centuries ago. My argument is that it was equal for the genders, and feminism has skewed the playing field for men. Girls will have things like "gender equality in STEM" and things like that, but if it means that much to you, get into a STEM career!

Judy Rich, and economist at Portsmouth Business School, conducted a study to analyze the difference between male and female acceptance into certain careers. She made up two fake applications that had exactly the same amount of experience and qualifications, but one was for a male, and one for a female. These applications were mailed to engineering jobs and secretarial and teller jobs. Females were found to be accepted half as much as males, and males were accepted a quarter as much as females. The female applications were mostly turned away because of no work in environments with strenuous physical activity, which would be more important for a woman because of the lack of testosterone. Most of the males were turned away with no reason given. This is a blatant example of male stereotyping in the workplace
AlwaysRight12345

Con

My opponent did not counter-refute my refutations on her points on Pride and Prejudice, being "girly", and so on. These thus flow through.

My opponent has somehow decided that the wage gap is due to separate professions. The below graph is from the Center for American Progress.

Wage Gap by gender by profession.[1]

Thus, we can see that my opponent's claims on the topic are simply false.

Then she cited a study showing how women were refused engineering jobs because they didn't have testosterone. This just proves my point; if women are generally refused engineering jobs then it stands to reason that her calls to "get into a STEM career" are illegitimate. She then went on to show how men were refused jobs for no reason in the same study and called it male sterotyping. To quote Jenny Watson of the Equal Opportunites Commision found in the same article that, "Discrimination does occur against men, and it's important to tackle the barriers. However, women still suffer most from inequalities. Our recent survey found it will take 40 years for women to achieve equality in the boardroom." [2] The BoP (which was accepted by Pro by not disputing it) shows that Pro must prove exact equal stereotypes in between genders, and this is again not as tangible a difference as those mentioned in same study and above.

I thus strongly urge a negative ballot.

Sources:
1. https://www.americanprogress.org...;
2. http://www.theguardian.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
firefury14620

Pro

I don't think you understand my argument. I believe that women and men are prejudiced to the same extent, which is not the feminist message. The feminist message is that boys can do anything and girls can't. This causes the controversy over who's better than who. This shows a blatant disregard for the fact that everyone is prejudiced equally. African-Americans are prejudiced against by white people, and white people are prejudiced against by African-Americans. There are two ways to every street. Please understand that you are focusing on one direction, but not the other. The chart that you used only showed male dominated jobs. If you look at female-dominated jobs, the wage gap is almost non-existent for females, and can sometimes lean the decrease towards the males.
AlwaysRight12345

Con

I would like to first clarify that my opponent has dropped every point except the wage gap. Thus, all my points flow through.

My opponent has (again incorrectly) asserted that there is a wage gap against men in female-dominated jobs. This graph displays her inaccuracy:

This is a wage gap by profession graph but it has female percentage to display there is a wage gap in all jobs.[1]

From here, we can see the most optimistic projections is wage neutrality in female dominated jobs. Most, however, still have a notable gap. This tells us that even with occasional equal platforms, women are on balance more discriminated against in the workplace.

My opponent also said that African-Americans and white people are equally prejudiced. Anyone who has lived on Earth has seen that this is not true. Even through her own analogies, my opponent is providing blatantly false facts.

I will assume that my opponent's assertion that "the feminist message is that boys can do anything and girls can't" was a typo. The feminist message, for those that are unsure, is that girls can do anything that boys can, i.e. that they are equal.

I thus strongly urge a negative ballot.

Sources:
1.https://familyinequality.wordpress.com...;
Debate Round No. 3
firefury14620

Pro

I would like my opponent to take a modern approach to this situation. My argument of the feminist message was that they believe that right now boys can do anything and girls can't. They would like to change it, yet it already is changed. I don't understand my opponent's argument. My opponent says that the wage gap is present in female dominated jobs. I would like my opponent to consider that the wage gap is because it's a female-dominated profession. Females get paid more in male-dominated jobs because there aren't as many of them. The minority will always be regarded higher than the majority. As for my opponent's touch on the black vs. white prejudice, at this point everything a white person says is racist. There is prejudice towards everyone in one way or another. Male nurses are paid more than female nurses. Female engineers are paid more than male engineers. It is a question of minority, not gender, that drives the wage gap.
AlwaysRight12345

Con

For the fourth and final round of this debate, I will crystallize all arguments made in this debate and then show how I have won a full ballot in this debate.

I had only one argument:
1. The wage gap makes females 20% more discriminated against in the workplace.

This argument, though attemptedly refuted multiple times, actually flowed through. My opponent refused to look at legitimate evidence and instead contradicted herself by first saying women are paid more in female dominated jobs and then in male dominated jobs.

My opponent, by my count, had four:
1. Men are barred from certain jobs societally
2. Marriage is imperative for both genders
3. Men cannot be "girly"
4. The wage gap is equal to both genders

I refuted all of these in my second round; but I will reiterate:

Men are barred from certain jobs societally, given, but not as much as women, especially as there is a tangible wage gap against women in every profession.

Marriage is no longer the sole purpose of life as described in Pride and Prejudice, making this point severely outdated, as it has been for over a hundred years.

My opponent did not cite a single way for men to be girly other than crying, which nobody should be doing very much or in public anyways.

My opponent's final argument on the wage gap is the only one that had any remote chance of flowing through but did not. As I said, my opponent cannot even agree with herself on the orientation of this argument, first arguing that female wages were higher in female dominated jobs and then in male dominated ones, but the evidence I have shown nullifies both of these arguments as men are paid more in every profession.

The only argument that flows through here is my argument on the wage gap, which showed that females earn on average 20% less than men.

Now I will show how I win a full ballot:

I win on arguments because I unequivocally showed that the wage gap is perpetually tilted against women, and that this is the only argument with any coherence in the debate.

I win on spelling and grammar for those with large attention to detail, noticing for example that my opponent did not end her second round with a punctuation mark.

I win on sources because I provided many more reputable sources than my opponent; it is a simple numbers count.

I may or may not win on conduct, with no forfeits this is more ambiguous and subjective.

Thus, I strongly urge a negative ballot.
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by whiteflame 1 week ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Overhead// Mod action: NOT Removed<

5 points to Con (Arguments, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: See comments

[*Reason for non-removal*] This debate is over 9 months past the end of the voting period and thus well past the statute of limitations for vote moderation. As such, votes on this debate are no longer moderated.
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Posted by Overhead 9 months ago
Overhead
PRO makes a few different points in R1 but drops all of them except for the wage gap from R2 onwards after CON's R1 rebuttal (as CON points out), seemingly conceding them, so the wage gap is central as it's the back and forth which lasts the entire debate and forms the heart of both arguments.

CON brings up the wage gap as a point where it is not simply a contrast between men and women (women are expected to be emotional, men are expected to be stoic, etc) but where women are very much worse off - as being richer isn't merely the flipside of the coin to being poorer, it's better and if proven the stereotypes are not equal in effect. This would show the topic of debate is incorrect even if men and women were equal in all other terms.

PRO initially claims wage gap is because of the different jobs and "there is no wage gap within the same position" in R2. PRO quickly changes her tune and by R3 is claiming that there is a gap in the same type of position, with women earning less in male dominated positions, but this is offset by women doing better in female dominated positions. By R4 this has flipped and PRO is stating women do better in female minority positions because they stand out. All completely contradictory, inconsistent and unsourced argument which changes between rounds.

CON provides sourced tables and graphs rebutting PRO's claims, showing that there is a wage gap and it exists for male majority AND male minority jobs. Indeed CON doesn't seem to have looked over the graphs properly, making her final claim about women doing better when they're the minority without realising the latest graph included jobs where women are only about 4% of the workforce and they still earn less than men.

Due to PRO's inconsistent and unsupported argument and CON providing relevant sourced arguments which PRO does not effectively counter - and in the last instance actually misinterprets - CON wins.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by SolonKR 9 months ago
SolonKR
firefury14620AlwaysRight12345Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cPW40Z1VadTaik_6yr_APQw5q_RukQoQL0tqRiCA2kY/edit?usp=sharing
Vote Placed by Overhead 9 months ago
Overhead
firefury14620AlwaysRight12345Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: See comments