Are the Sikhists saved?
Debate Rounds (5)
Here is my argument. Under the Sikhist religion, there is one God, this God is love, and has a son, assuming of course that this God is the same as the Judeochristian God, then this son would be Jesus. The bible does not say that you have to find out about Jesus a specific way, just that you have to believe in him, you mean that God doesn't need a Christian guy to tell them about Jesus, he can just go down to guru Nanak himself and tell him about his son Jesus, he can do that? Obcourse he can, he's God! To establish this, examine the following scriptures:
"Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."
"Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?"
"But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
"For nothing will be impossible with God."
Keep in mind, for religious debates, you must bring two or more witnesses, I prefer two from the new testament and two for the old testament, so that Jews who only read the old testament, Christians who only read the new testament, and Christians who read both the new and old testament will all regard the scriptures used in debating, here are verses to back this:
"At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death."
One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
"But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
2 Corinthians 13:1:
"This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
I would like to thank my opponent for the opportunity to debate this subject. It is my opinion that the discussion of salvation, and what it means to be saved, according to the Holy Bible, is one of the most important subjects to debate as Christians. And I will show that according to the Standardized King James Holy Bible, that Sikhs, are not saved.
Do They Believe Jesus is God?
Sikhs view God in the light of "Oneness doctrine", what that is, is that God has one personality. The website "realsikhism.com" clearly states:
"The main difference between Sikhism and some of the world’s other religions is that there are people who worship Jesus and believe Jesus is God, some people worship Buddha and believe Buddha is God. The Sikh Gurus themselves said that they are not to be worshipped. They expressed very clearly not to worship anyone except God. Guru Gobind Singh Ji even put it in harsh words and said, “Those who call me God will fall into the pit of hell. Consider me as a humble servant of God and have no doubt about it.” He wanted to be very clear that He is not God and should not be worshipped. One should only worship the One Almighty Lord." 
This is clear evidence, that Sikhs do not believe Jesus is Lord, that He is God. How could possibly declare that these people "believe on the name of Christ", if they do not except His very divinity? The Holy Bible declares in John 1:1 and John 1:14, that Jesus is God.
It is clear that they are not saved, Romans 10:9 specifically says that unless one believes in his heart that Jesus is Lord, and that He is risen from the dead, then they are saved. Sikhs believe none of these.
Salvation By Works?
The website “sikhismguide.com” states:
"The way to salvation is a twofold path: the path of love or simran, and the path of seva, or service to mankind" .
This is no different than the age old mantra spouted out by nonbelievers everywhere. “I’m a good person, and I do good deeds therefore, I am saved”.
This is contradicted by scripture throughout the New Testament.
John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world, that He gave His Only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life”.
Galatians 2:21 – “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law (works), then Christ is dead in vain.”
Romans 11:6 – “ And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
The Bible makes it perfectly clear. Salvation is not by works like baptism, circumcision, communion, feeding the poor, being friendly, keeping the Ten Commandments, etc. All our good works is nothing more than filthy rags before His feet (Isaiah 64:6). As it is written, by all these verses (and much more), it is by the grace of God justified by our faith. Works gives us the glory, but all glory is do unto the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Almighty God.
Sikhs reject the Scriptures, they reject the deity of Christ, and trust in their own “good” works, when this is completely refuted by The Holy Bible. There is absolutely no reason to believe they are saved. I will further elaborate and expand in future rounds. I will now turn this over to my opponent. Thank You.
"Sikhs view God in the light of "Oneness doctrine", what that is, is that God has one personality. The website "realsikhism.com" clearly states:
"The main difference between Sikhism and some of the world"s other religions is that there are people who worship Jesus and believe Jesus is God, some people worship Buddha and believe Buddha is God. The Sikh Gurus themselves said that they are not to be worshipped. They expressed very clearly not to worship anyone except God. Guru Gobind Singh Ji even put it in harsh words and said, "Those who call me God will fall into the pit of hell. Consider me as a humble servant of God and have no doubt about it." He wanted to be very clear that He is not God and should not be worshipped. One should only worship the One Almighty Lord." 
Well, that sounds as if it were from the holy bible itself.
"This is clear evidence, that Sikhs do not believe Jesus is Lord, that He is God. How could possibly declare that these people "believe on the name of Christ", if they do not except His very divinity? The Holy Bible declares in John 1:1 and John 1:14, that Jesus is God."
Yes, Jesus is God, God isn't divided against himself, there is one God, that affects us in three ways, their God is our God, and our God is Jesus. Here is a scripture to back this:
1st John 4:7-8:
"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."
Yes, they love, hence they know God, which is Jesus, which makes them saved.
"It is clear that they are not saved, Romans 10:9 specifically says that unless one believes in his heart that Jesus is Lord, and that He is risen from the dead, then they are saved. Sikhs believe none of these."
Hmm, I also have this scripture to bring up:
1st John 4:16:
"And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them."
They abide in love, so they abide in God, and God abides in them, to say that God can abide in someone, but them not be saved, does not logically follow.
The website "sikhismguide.com" states:
"The way to salvation is a twofold path: the path of love or simran, and the path of seva, or service to mankind" .
This is no different than the age old mantra spouted out by nonbelievers everywhere. "I"m a good person, and I do good deeds therefore, I am saved".
Actually, this combines into a single concept: charity, the word used for love in the bible, which is God, so if they are following the path of love and service to mankind, they are following the path of God, or the path of Jesus, hence they are saved.
This is contradicted by scripture throughout the New Testament.
John 3:16 " "For God so loved the world, that He gave His Only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
Galatians 2:21 " "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
It is not salvation by works, it is salvation by love if you pay attention, or salvation by God which is love, aka, salvation by Jesus, because Jesus is God.
"The Bible makes it perfectly clear. Salvation is not by works like baptism, circumcision, communion, feeding the poor, being friendly, keeping the Ten Commandments, etc. All our good works is nothing more than filthy rags before His feet (Isaiah 64:6). As it is written, by all these verses (and much more), it is by the grace of God justified by our faith. Works gives us the glory, but all glory is do unto the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Almighty God.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Their works are obviously of love, or of God, hence they are of God, and if they are of God, they are saved.
"Sikhs reject the Scriptures, they reject the deity of Christ, and trust in their own "good" works, when this is completely refuted by The Holy Bible. There is absolutely no reason to believe they are saved. I will further elaborate and expand in future rounds. I will now turn this over to my opponent. Thank You."
They refute Jesus? No, they just don't understand him because all the Christians that have told them are lousy, and unconvincing, there are a few verses that say things relevant to this:
"Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of Israel He does not defile his neighbor"s wife or have sexual relations with a woman during her period. He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. He does not lend to them at interest or take a profit from them. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between two parties He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign Lord. He shall surely live, "
According to Strongsville bible concordance, the word for live here is one most times used to describe living as in everlasting life.
Sounds like they are saved to me.
In fact, the old testament and new testament illustrates many ways that you can be saved/ forgiven by works, here is an example:
"And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him."
Forgiveness by sacrifice
" But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.""
Salvation by repayment, please note: Jesus (God) says that salvation came to zacchaeus house, not that Jesus gave it to him.
And here is one more verse:
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you? The King will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."
According to God, you are saved by living your life as such, the Sikhists do this more than you.
The bulk of my opponents case rests on two assumptions. That the god of the Sikhs is the god of the Bible, and that love or rather loving works, is a way to salvation. He claims there are many ways to salvation, and is sighting verses out of context with no respect for the times in which the books were written, the context, or there placement within scripture. Here, I am going to divide the rebuttal between his two contentions and will use both common evidence and the Word of God to refute this heresy.
What is the Sikh concept of god?
It is not enough to believe in one. One has to have faith in ‘The’ God. The Sikh god, and the God of the Bible are not the same, and there is evidence to prove such. First and foremost, they deny the Holy Trinity, and as I stated in my opening arguments that is a pretty big deal in scripture. The Sikh website that I stated above on this matter said it explicitly, that Jesus was not to be worshiped. Comparing Him to the Buddha, and their Gurus. This breaking what scripture explicitly teaches about salvation from ones sins. One must repent, believe in his heart that Jesus is the Lord, and confess with his mouth of the resurrection (Romans 10:9; Acts 8:26-37).
Second, the Sikhists believe not just in the “oneness” of their god, but also its lack of gender, and its impersonal nature. Throughout both the Old and the New Testaments, it is written that God is male, that he is given the name Father, and the Son, Emmanuel (God with us). These are both masculine names. And, to take it even further, how could one possibly say that the god of the Sikhs are the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that revealed Himself unto them and even unto Moses?
“And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.” ~ Exodus 6:3
Or was He being impersonal when He came down from Heaven to die for the whole worlds sins (The Whole New Testament)?
But, of course…what would they need a savior for? They don’t believe in original sin . They believe in work salvation, which I will now turn my attention to.
Saved by Works? 2.0
For this I will sight some of what my opponent has argued:
* “They abide in love, so they abide in God, and God abides in them, to say that God can abide in someone, but them not be saved, does not logically follow.”
*”Actually, this combines into a single concept: charity, the word used for love in the bible, which is God, so if they are following the path of love and service to mankind, they are following the path of God, or the path of Jesus, hence they are saved.”
*” It is not salvation by works, it is salvation by love if you pay attention, or salvation by God which is love, aka, salvation by Jesus, because Jesus is God.”
Looking at these, most would be inclined to agree with him. I don’t neither does the Bible. My opponent seems to like to repeat that a lot “God is love”. I wonder if he could even tell me what that even means in the context of the Bible. The Holy Bible says nowhere that God is “only” love. On the contrary, the Lord is slow to anger, but He still gets angry. He is just as much a God of wrath, as He is love. We see this when He killed all the firstborn of Egypt, because of Pharaoh’s pride (Exodus 11:5), when He completely wiped Sodom and Gomorrah off the face of the Earth, or in the last days when He will bring hell to Earth, before, He casts Satan and every other sinner into the Lake of Fire (Whole book of Revelation). Is that just a God of Love? No, He by all means loves creation, He died for His creation (Gospels), but He is bound by Justice to poor wrath on those that reject His righteousness, in favor of lies or pride.
My opponent cites Ezekiel 18 as his proof that God sets works as a form of salvation. Yet, one looks at every word the prophet wrote, and will find that Ezekiel is defining a righteous man of that era as one who keeps the Torah, or law of Moses. That being said, we are no longer bound by those laws, we set free of both sin and the laws by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. I will sight the following as proof:
“ Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” ~ Romans 7: 4-6
My opponent puts forth the story of Zacchaeus, yet when it is read one notices that he refers to Jesus as “Lord”, which means “God” in the Bible. He already confessed with both his heart and mouth that Jesus was Lord. As confirmed by later Scriptures, this what saved Him, and the good works were commands of the Lord, which is not put forth as salvation, as obedience for reward in Heaven.
My opponents last verse is probably the best punch he’s thrown so far, yet, notice that in Matthew 25:34 Jesus said, “the kingdom prepared for them.” This means that the people are already believers. In verse 37, Jesus says, “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?'" They are righteous. They are believers who have the righteousness of God (Philippians 3:9). It is the righteous, the believers, who do the good works. It isn't doing the good works that makes you Christian or righteous. Those who are already sheep are doing the good deeds, and they inherit eternal life.
Before, I end this round I would like to take the time to address one more citation that my opponent put forth. He quoted Mathew 7:16 about the fruits that people bare shows us who they are. Well, I would like to examine the Sikhs spiritual fruits. Do they believe Jesus is Lord? No. Do they believe humanity is naturally doomed to sin in need of a Savior? No. Do they believe in a personal relationship with God as the Bible describes? No. Do they even try to reconcile their beliefs with Christianity’s and argue that they are one? No. They don’t, because both Sikhs and Christians agree that each have a totally different view of God, our relationship to God, and oh salvation. Thank You.
1. Any religion that has one, unchanging, omnipresent, loving God that preaches love, that religion is of God.
2. Jesus did not alter the way forgiveness is acheived in any way, he merely practiced it, except this time, the sacrifice was enough to forgive all of everyone's sin, the old way was not closed.
This is your problem, the "holy trinity" is not mentioned once in the bible, so they are correct in their assumption, I did find this scripture though, I'm not quite sure it's what you meant:
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with who is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
No variableness amigo, no trinity, I found a few verses also:
1 Timothy 2:5:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". If Jesus is the mediator between us and God"
Yeah, so it turns out they know more about God than you do.
"Second, the Sikhists believe not just in the "oneness" of their god, but also its lack of gender, and its impersonal nature. Throughout both the Old and the New Testaments, it is written that God is male, that he is given the name Father, and the Son, Emmanuel (God with us). These are both masculine names. And, to take it even further, how could one possibly say that the god of the Sikhs are the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that revealed Himself unto them and even unto Moses?"
Excuse me, God has no gender, if you want to play the sexist Christians card here, so be it, if you think that God is a male, you don't know your bible amigo. In the book of genesis, the word God is male, but the name Yehova, under hebrew, is neither a male nor female.
No one is arguing that God does not judge.
Ezekiel, no my friend, Ezekiel is not describing a righteous man, GOD is, and God does not change.
"My opponent puts forth the story of Zacchaeus, yet when it is read one notices that he refers to Jesus as "Lord", which means "God" in the Bible. He already confessed with both his heart and mouth that Jesus was Lord. As confirmed by later Scriptures, this what saved Him, and the good works were commands of the Lord, which is not put forth as salvation, as obedience for reward in Heaven."
It clearly states that salvation came to Zaccheauses house, nothing else, you know this.
"My opponents last verse is probably the best punch he"s thrown so far, yet, notice that in Matthew 25:34 Jesus said, "the kingdom prepared for them." This means that the people are already believers. In verse 37, Jesus says, "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?'" They are righteous. They are believers who have the righteousness of God (Philippians 3:9). It is the righteous, the believers, who do the good works. It isn't doing the good works that makes you Christian or righteous. Those who are already sheep are doing the good deeds, and they inherit eternal life."
It says that it is prepared for them, this is called a circular argument, you are saying that this only applies to believers because they are believers, and you know this because they are saved, and only believers are saved, and you know that because only believers were the sheep's, and they were believers because they are saved, you see the circular motions?
"Before, I end this round I would like to take the time to address one more citation that my opponent put forth. He quoted Mathew 7:16 about the fruits that people bare shows us who they are. Well, I would like to examine the Sikhs spiritual fruits. Do they believe Jesus is Lord? No. Do they believe humanity is naturally doomed to sin in need of a Savior? No. Do they believe in a personal relationship with God as the Bible describes? No. Do they even try to reconcile their beliefs with Christianity"s and argue that they are one? No. They don"t, because both Sikhs and Christians agree that each have a totally different view of God, our relationship to God, and oh salvation. Thank You."
Sikhism dont believe in Jesus because some Christian idiots describe him to them all wrong, they, like you, present him to be some kind of an Allah, and based on what was revealed to me, and the bible, God takes this as a serious offense:
"Then he and Aaron summoned the people to come and gather at the rock. "Listen, you rebels!" he shouted. "Must we bring you water from this rock?" 11 Then Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with the staff, and water gushed out. So the entire community and their livestock drank their fill. But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust me enough to demonstrate my holiness to the people of Israel, you will not lead them into the land I am giving them!"
You are not demonstrating the holiness of God, rather you present him to be Allah, and God does not appreciate this.
My opponent’s “Revelation” and it’s contradictory with the Bible, Christianity, and his very argument.
You are misquoting me, I said that an religion that believes in one god, AND TEACHES AND PRACTICES LOVE, their God is the TRUE GOD. The Pharisees did not teach love or practice love, and the Muslims do not teach or practice love.
My point stands, every where, it says there is one God, named Y-H-W-H, there are scriptures well beyond count to prove this;
God is not made of flesh, how could she have a gender if she is not made of flesh? That is what a gender is, what genitals you have, God is a spirit and ha no body, no genitals, hence she has no gender.
As to your comment on Ezekiel, you are wrong, this is not what it means, in Ezekiel 18:4:
"For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child"both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die."
All souls belong to her? Not just Christians or Jews?
It clearly says salvation came to his house, I have no interests in your doctrines though.
For one, Sikhism does not present god to be "impersonal", in Christianity you cannot be saved without works to prove it either.
Oh yeah, this is a good one, reincarnation is not "unbiblical", for example, in Matthew 11:13-14 Jesus says:
"For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come."
John the Baptist is a reincarnated Elijah?
Meditation is not unbiblical either, infact Jesus herself did it many times and even for hours on end, Meditation= prayer.
And lastly, Karma is not unbiblical either, Galatians 6:7:
"Do not be misled: God is not mocked. For whatever a man might sow, that also he will reap."
Yeah, they as mine as well be Christians, anyway, you are yet to reply to my bringing up your misrepresenting god, I found a verse relating to this Revelation 21:8:
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars"they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Oh, it says the unbelieving, that means that nonchristians are going to hell, but wait, the word here is actually "apistos",which means "un-trusting", the same thing God used to describe Moses and Aaron in
"And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them."
Yep, so it was actually talking about jerk religious "Christians" like yourself. Now lets examine this, how are you showing the holiness of god, by being a chauvinistic jerk, by preaching false doctrines, by saying that the Sikhists, who know god and preach love and reject your false doctrines, are going to hell? Are you preaching the gospel?
" Then Peter replied, "I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism. 35 In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right. 36 This is the message of Good News for the people of Israel""
Oh, the gospel, what is the gospel?
"that there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all."
Uh, so, it DOESN'T say "turn or burn", hmm, lets see how the bible wants us to teach the gospel,
"So Paul, standing before the council,[e] addressed them as follows: "Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious in every way, 23 for as I was walking along I saw your many shrines. And one of your altars had this inscription on it: "To an Unknown God." This God, whom you worship without knowing, is the one I"m telling you about."
Oh, what a heart warming story THAT YOU AREN'T ABIDING BY! The Sikhists are the Thessalonians who are trying to learn about the Unknown God, last I checked Paul didn't say "you're pagans you need to turn or burn", like you would have or like you are doing now! Who are you to judge who is and isn't going to hell or heaven?
Let's examine this, you hate women, God does not hate women, the bible says not to misrepresent God, you misrepresent her, God is love, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, all that has been coming from you is sexism and false doctrine, based on this, my conclusion is that you cannot have the spirit of God.
Now, let's judge your fruits, let's see here, your a sexist pig who thinks of women as inferior, you're a Pharisee who thinks that the Sikhists are going to hell because they abide by love, they believe in God, they esteem women equally, and they deny false doctrine, you misrepresent God, and you are trying to say that creations of God are going to he'll for not accepting your doctrines.
I do not think that you can go to heaven with those ideologies, it sounds misogynistic jerks don't go to heaven.
So let me ask you, who do you think she will and will not send to hell? The Sikhist who does the will of God, abides by love, and believes in God, or the chauvinistic Christian who openly slanders her with his actions and his satanic doctrines.
Who do you think has the spirit of God? Who do you think is saved? Do you think that God esteem you higher than the Sikhists because of your doctrines?
You think that just because you believe Jesus is the son of god, that you are saved, demons admitted that Jesus is the son of God, you aren't going to tell me that THEY are saved are you? This reminds me of Romans 1:29-32:
"being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."
I would like to continue to thank my opponent for his response.
Yeah, so, these verses are inconclusive.
"There is no denying this. The Sikhs express completely their god is only one. In other words that it is one in the sense that me and you are one in personality. But the God of the Bible is not so. He is not constrained to such. And because this it, really shows that the god they worship is not the God of the Bible, nor do they accept Jesus as their Savior and God, nor do they believe His resurrection. Because of this, they are not saved."
Yeah, you are messed up in your doctrines; they don"t deny him being the Messiah, and they don"t deny him being the Son of God, they only deny that he IS God.
"Gender: Gender is far from that of just sexual organs. It implies a specific nature. The Bible clearly states that the Lord is masculine. This again shows a complete difference between their god and God."
Seriously, alright, I will make this clear, before I payed attention, I was using "he", even though I knew that she was NOT a he, but rather had no gender. It was simple mistake on the side of bible writers.
"Impersonality: My opponent offers no evidence to prove my point wrong, rather he makes one, one line statement. So, I"ll just quote the Sikhs themselves on it.
"God Almighty is impersonal" ~ Sikhspirit.com
This is in complete opposition to the Bible. God is personal. He has a plan for all humanity, He spoke to the prophets, He guided Israel in OT, He loved His world, and died for His world. The
Sikhs reject this, yet they are saved, right?"
Actually, if they say this, it is false, look at this verse for example:
"Since You are my Lord and Master, what is there for me to fear? Who else should I praise besides You? You are the One and only, and because of You all things exist; there is nothing at all for me without You. O Father, I have seen that this world is poison. Save me O Lord of the Universe! Your Name is my only support. You know completely the condition of my mind; who else could I go to explain it? Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the whole world has gone crazy; One finds peace by receiving Naam. What shall I say? Unto whom shall I speak? Whatever I have to say, I say it to God. Everything which exists was created by You. You are my hope, forever and ever. If you bestow greatness, then it is Your greatness; here and hereafter, I meditate on You. God of Nanak is forever the Provider of peace; Your Name is my only strength" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 382)."
As can be seen, the Guru Nanak refers to god as "father", clearly indicating God to be personal.
"So, they obviously seem to realize the difference quite perfectly. Meditation is deep thought as an attempt to gain a higher level of consciousness, but of course, Jesus did that right? No, He was God, he didn"t need to gain a higher level of consciousness. No where in scripture will you find Jesus meditating in that sense, but rather He always prayed to the Father as are His disciples. Let this be another bad fruit to prove their tree is wicked according to scripture."
Small alterations, besides, our bible indicates meditation (on God"s name) as does theirs, as can be seen:
"He looks at the earth, and it trembles; He touches the mountains, and they smoke. I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have my being. Let my meditation be pleasing to Him; As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD.""
"There are two issues with what my opponent is stating: 1. That scripture is being used out of context, and 2. Even if it were true the way says it, the Sikh view of it is still completely different."
Actually, this is again one of the prophecies concerning the messiah,
"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."
Very clearly, Elijah himself, to be sent at the time of the Messiah, Jesus, not:
"See, I will send someone that is the prophet Elijah of his day to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes"
"Sikhs believe that everyone gets reincarnated. However, the Bible states clearly it is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgement (Hebrews 9:27). No redos. This life is the only chance."
"The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here"
Verses like these are very clear, and indicate that everyone is reincarnated at the last days. Besides, we know what they mean,
2nd Corinthians 5:1:
"For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands"
Let"s take this idea, "you die, you get reborn in a new body", very simple, but maybe someone misunderstands it and thinks it is repetitive, and you die and are reborn forever.
"They believe good and bad energy is gathered based according their deeds, and will determine their form in their next life. However, the Bible teaches that good and bad is rewarded or punished by God in this life and in the judgement in the next. My opponent is good at reading scripture, perhaps He should make just as much an effort into understanding the spirit of Scripture."
Yes, now you are getting it, these bible verses are true, but to a Sikhist, they might misunderstand it and think it means reincarnation, Rookie mistake! The Bible does not deny the existence of good and bad energy.
"In this my opponent is correct. It translates to "un-trusting". The answer to this rests in the very scripture itself. Moses did not trust the Lord"s commands, and disobeyed them. For, that He was judged harshly. So tell me? Do the Sinks trust in God? My evidence from inside and outside scripture shows that they don"t. So in fact it is they who must start believing in the name of Jesus."
Trust in God, their bible teaches this everywhere:
"Since You are my Lord and Master, what is there for me to fear? Who else should I praise besides You? You are the One and only, and because of You all things exist; there is nothing at all for me without You. O Father, I have seen that this world is poison. Save me O Lord of the Universe! Your Name is my only support. You know completely the condition of my mind; who else could I go to explain it? Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the whole world has gone crazy; One finds peace by receiving Naam. What shall I say? Unto whom shall I speak? Whatever I have to say, I say it to God. Everything which exists was created by You. You are my hope, forever and ever. If you bestow greatness, then it is Your greatness; here and hereafter, I meditate on You. God of Nanak is forever the Provider of peace; Your Name is my only strength" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 382).
"Sing the Praise of the Immaculate Lord; He is within all. The Almighty Lord controls everything; whatever He wills, comes to pass. He establishes and disestablishes everything in an instant; there is no other except Him. He pervades the continents, universe, islands and all worlds. He alone understands to whom God Himself provides wisdom; He becomes a pure and unstained being (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 706).
"Some apply ceremonial marks to their foreheads, hold rosary beads in their hands, and wear religious robes. Some people think that the Lord is a toy to play with. If I am insane, then I am Yours, O Lord. How can people know my secret? I do not pick leaves as offerings and I do not worship idols. All services are useless without devotional worship of the Lord. I worship the true Guru (God); forever and ever, I surrender myself to Him. By such service, I find peace in the Kingdom of God. People say that Kabeer has gone insane. Only the Lord realizes the secret of Kabeer (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1158)."
"God, the Primal Being, the great Provider is free of revenge and hate. I am a sinner; You are my Forgiver. The sinner, who finds no protection anywhere, becomes immaculate and pure if he comes to seek Your sanctuary. I have found peace by pleasing the true Guru (master). I have obtained all fruits and rewards embracing the Guru in my heart. I humbly bow to the Supreme Lord, the true Guru. The entire world, my mind, and my body are Yours. I come to see You when the veil of illusion is removed. You are my Lord and Master; You are the King of all. When it pleases Him, even dry wood becomes green. When it pleases Him, rivers flow across the desert sands. When it pleases Him, all fruits and rewards are obtained. Grasping hold of the Guru's feet, my anxiety is dispelled. I am unworthy and ungrateful, but He has been merciful to me. My mind and body have been soothed; the Ambrosial Nectar rains down in my mind. The Supreme Lord has become kind and compassionate to me. Servant Nanak while enraptured beholds the Lord" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1141).
"No one is anyone's companion; why have an ego? Only the Name of Lord is your Support which helps you cross over this world-ocean. I am just a poor mortal, You are my True Support O my Perfect True Guru. Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Yours, my mind becomes stable. Royal powers and wealth are just a web, they have no use at all. The Kirtan of the Lord's Praises is my support; this is the everlasting true wealth. As many are the pleasures of materialistic things, so many are the shadows they leave. The Gurmukhs sing of the Naam, which is the treasure of peace. You are the True Lord, the treasure of excellence O God, You are deep and profound. The Lord is the hope and support of Nanak's heart" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 398).
These verses make it very clear that you should not trust in yourself, but in god, and even call her "My rock", and "my foundation"
Yep, and it says here in Psalms:
"Blessed be the LORD, my rock "My loving kindness and my fortress, My stronghold and my deliverer, My shield and He in whom I take refuge, Who subdues my people under me. O LORD, what is man, that You take knowledge of him? Or the son of man, that You think of him?"
"Acts: Actually, yes, it does say that. It says peace comes through Jesus Christ our Emmanuel, nothing else."
That"s right, nothing else, not "turn or burn", besides, their God is our God, which according to you IS Jesus.
"Paul and the Idols: I would like to correct my opponent"s analogy. The Sikhs are like the Athenians, not the Thessalonians. Furthermore, if my opponent were right, then the Athenians might have already been saved, and Paul was wasting his time. However this is not the case. Paul used the existence of such an idol as a tool to make it easier for them to be converted. The same can be said about the Sikhs. It"s easier to convert Sikhs than some others, but they are not saved by default based on their doctrines and practices. They must believe on Jesus and repent."
He preached to them because they deserve to know more about this God that saved them.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. " ~ Ephesians 2:8-9
And concerning those that believe and do no works:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justified the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." ~ Romans 4:5
Just because one gets saved, doesn"t mean they are freed from the sin nature, and even though God may punish while on Earth, one is still a part of the family of God.
I have proven the god of the Sikhs is not the God of the Bible. Those count on works to save them or do not believe on the name of Jesus are not saved. My case still stands. Thank you."
Really, Demons believe Jesus is the son of God, are they saved; does God count that as righteousness toward them?
"Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah."
They admitted that he was the son of god and the messiah, as do you, but, it doesn"t count as righteousness.
1. The verse are no inconclusive. I gave specific and overwhelming evidence that the God of the Bible is one, but is also a Trinity. It makes a clear distinction between, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, while at the same time calling them one. My opponent at the same time says that Sikhs do not deny that Jesus is the Messiah or Son of God, yet they do not proclaim that He is either. Where is the name Jesus in any of the scriptures of the Sikhs? No where. He also makes a honest claim that they just don’t believe that He is God. This is practically admitting defeat, because Romans 10:9 clearly states that one must believe that Jesus is Lord. Lord is only reserved as a name of God in the Bible. Therefore, it is very clear that Sikhs are not saved.
2. My opponent has clearly denied the infallibility of the Bible. However, he clearly stated that Jesus was the only way to Heaven, and later stated that Jesus is God. So how is it that He can make these claims that the Bible has mistakes. He has given no evidence as to what parts are “mistakes”, and what others are good. For all we know his whole case is a sham because his verses were “mistakes”. He is obviously making a contradiction, because He has supplied Bible verses himself, and also affirmed that Jesus is God (no other book has proclaimed such a thing). Therefore, the infallibility of the Bible is default. But even if he were correct, I would still be the winner of this debate because without the infallibility of the Bible. Faith in Christ would be unjustifiable since we would not be able to determine whether Jesus is God or what the truth really is and thus, Sikhs would not be saved in the biblical sense still.
3. My opponents quote of the Sikhs book is irrelevant, we arguing over whether individual Sikhs based on common beliefs are saved. I have given one Sikh accepted site as evidence of their common belief that their god is impersonal, and I will give another article stating the same . You can go across google right now and you won’t find anything that states that their god is not impersonal, in favor of personal. It is this belief that makes further distinction between the God of the Bible, and their god.
4. My opponent continues to make excuses, rather than proving that his points are valid. The Sikhs clearly believe in using various forms of meditation as a means by which they believe will gain higher consciousness or breaking away from an endless cycle of rebirths. However, when examining the word mediation in the Bible it means neither of these. Rather, it is a word meaning “deep thought”. For example: When I am at work and begin to concentrate and think on scriptures that I had read earlier that morning or the day before, I am meditating on scripture. I am not trying to do the various things Sikhs believe they ae doing when they meditate .
5. My opponent again is focusing out of context. He brings up Malachi 4:5 thinking that it has to do with the first coming of Christ. Yet, as I have already stated, John denied being Elijah (John 1:21).
However, concerning Malachi, my opponent misinterprets the meaning of the phrase “great and dreadful day of the Lord”. This reference is repeated in other books of the Bible such as:
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come" ~ Joel 2:31
“ 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”~ 2 Peter 3:8-10
What do these verses have in common other than common terms and phraseology? They all have to do with the end times! The Great Tribulation, Rapture, and the Wrath of God. So what does this have to do with Elijah? Because he is one of the two witnesses spoken of:
“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.” ~ Revelation 11:3-6
But would that constitute reincarnation as the Sikhs define it? No, Elijah never died. He was taken up in a flaming chariot in 2 Kings 2:11. One must die, and reborn to be reincarnated.
My opponents last verses on this subject either have nothing to do with this subject or are being used completely out of context. In Jonah it is stating that they the people of Nineveh shall stand at judgement redeemed because they heated the Lords warning and repented. Like, wise Corinthians is speaking of what shall happen after all the believer get to Heaven and are rewarded according to their deeds.
Further un separated rebuttals:
- They’re book may say to trust in their god, but so does the Qur’an, Talmud, and Book of Mormon. This means nothing if their god is not the God of the Bible. Which I have already proved it isn’t.
- “rock and foundation” – They were obviously copied. After all, have I not already provided evidence that they copied from the Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists? The Book of Mormon basically paraphrases half the New Testament, with add ons supporting their own warped doctrines. If my opponent and the Sikhs are correct, then there is going to be too many people going to Hell because a lot of people do good in their own eyes, and follow a wide range of religions that practice good works and a lot of them believe in one god however, they can’t all be right. Only they who accept Jesus as Lord, and recognize on His grace as salvation are saved. There are few that are saved, not the majority, but few. In Mathew 7: 13-14 Jesus says that broad is the way, and wide is the gate that leads to Hell, but straight and narrow is the way that leads to Heaven, and few find it. My opponent is wrong, and unless Sikhs believe Jesus is Lord they will never see Heaven.
Works: My opponent wishes to bring up demons in the face of my blatant proof of Faith Alone so I will be as blunt as I can be. Jesus did not die for Satan or his Demons. He died for those made in His image. He died for the Sikhs, and Sikhs can be saved if they only confess He is Lord. That is all. The verse are clear. Faith alone is what saves us, not good works.
My friends, it is written that we shall judge trees by their fruits. We have examined the fruits of the Sikhists. They embrace unbiblical doctrines such as Karma, “Higher consciousness” Mediation, and Reincarnation. I have shown that the majority of what the believe is copied from other Eastern religions like Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Their god is impersonal, and the Sikhs themselves do not claim to be related to Christians or their god to the God of the Bible. Most of all let us see that they do not accept Jesus as their Lord. Therefore, It is only reasonable by the Bible alone that we say that they aren’t saved. Thank You.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Marauder 9 months ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con had better formatting for his arguments and they were theologically more sound. He also gave sources relevant to the debate subject group of interest while the scriptures pro chose to source were most of the time not relevant enough to the debate contentions themselves.
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