The Instigator
scorpionclone
Pro (for)
Winning
28 Points
The Contender
Hayslip
Con (against)
Losing
15 Points

Are we living in the End Times as defined by the Bible?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/10/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,636 times Debate No: 3977
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (36)
Votes (13)

 

scorpionclone

Pro

It is my belief that we are currently living in the Last Days, as described in various parts of the Bible. Proof of this argument lies in the prophecy and infallible word of God which describes certain events that will take place in the end times so that persons living in these times will know that it is indeed near the end of the world.

Anyone wishing to debate this subject must have an open mind and understand that events unfolding around the world have a tinge of fear and birth pangs of a new world order coming to fruition setting up the political stage that will usher in the False Messiah or leader who will lead many astray..

Dare you debate me??
Hayslip

Con

Although my biblical knowledge is not as strong as some, I'll take you up on this debate. Although, I must say that you have left me very little to argue against so...I will continue on to my points.
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1)Jesus warned us about a false rapture when He stated:
Matthew 24:26
If ever therefore, they might say unto you, Behold, He is in the desolate place; DO NOT GO forth: behold, [He is] in inner chambers; believe [it] not.

Therefore, there is no end of time, just false raptures set forth by people like you.
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2) The Signs:

Matthew 24:29
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Currently, due to the lifetime of the sun, it is expected to be "Darkened" in roughly 4.5 billion years.

Matthew 24:27
For just as the lightning flashes in the east and is seen to the very west, so will be the Coming of the Son of Man.

There have been no indications of such lightning flashes thus far.
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"Dare you debate me??"

I do.
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Debate Round No. 1
scorpionclone

Pro

1. It is interesting that you choose this particular scripture because if you refer just above that to Matthew 24:7-8

You will hear of Wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginnings of birth pangs.

This verse here describes exactly what is happening right now.

2. In addition, you have to understand what the word Rapture is. I have not mentioned this word, but you have accused me of conjuring up a false rapture. All I am saying is that we are living in the end times. Rapture is a totally seperate subject that is related to the end times.

The rapture is the mass disappearance of Christians who are caught up in the air with Christ when the Trumpet sounds. Then after this event takes place the Tribulation will begin when all of God's final judgments will take place. The anitchrist or False Messiah will not be revealed until after the Rapture occurs. the events your talking about will come at the very end. The darkening of the sun moon stars, and the appearance of Christ as lightning from east to west.

3. The items your describing refers to the false christ and others who will come in his name,namely false christs and false teachers, people like: Jones, Barrack Obama, Manson, Paula White, Joel Osteen, John Hagee and others.

4. The real issue is what's happening to nation of Israel right now. The nation just turned 60 years old this week. prior to 1948 Israel hasn't been a nation for over some 1900 years. This has importance because the Nation of Israel is God's chosen people.God promised to gather his chosen people together again in the end times back to the land that he gave them. This nation determines where we are (the gentiles)and fit in Bible prophecy. if you refer to Luke 20:21 Jesus says:

When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies you know the time grows near.

The bible also describes other events that will hasten the coming of the end of the age

Jesus said that society will become increasingly lawless and immoral as the time approaches for His return. In fact, He said it would become as evil as it was in the days of Noah (Matthew 24:12,37-39).

5. The book of Daniel says that there will be an explosion of knowledge in the end times and that people will move about quickly (Daniel 12:4). There are many Bible prophecies that cannot be understood apart from modern technology. For example, how can the whole world look upon two bodies lying in the streets of Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8-9)? Modern television satellite technology makes it easy. Looka at all the tremendous increases in knowledge and you can clearly see that we are fast approaching what some would call a very scary moment in our history if not for the sake of the Christs return for his saints.

Other significant signs of Israel that we are told to watch for in the end times include the re-occupation of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24), the resurgence of Israeli military strength (Zechariah 12:6), and the re-focusing of world politics on Israel (Zechariah 12:3).

All these signs have been fulfilled in this century. The nation has been re-established, the land has been reclaimed, the ancient language has been revived, the Jews are back in Jerusalem, and Israel is the focal point of world politics.

Jesus says in Luke 21:28 that when these signs begin to happen, we should "straighten up and lift up our heads" because "our redemption is drawing near."

His prophecy is contained in the fig tree parable (Matthew 24:32-35) which He presented in His Olivet Discourse. The day before He delivered this speech, He had put a curse on a barren fig tree, causing it to wither (Matthew 21:28-29). This was a symbolic prophecy that God would soon pour out His wrath upon the Jewish people because of their spiritual barrenness in rejecting His Son.

The next day Jesus reminded His disciples of the fig tree. He said to watch for it to bloom again. In other words, He said watch for the rebirth of Israel. He indicated that when the fig tree blooms again, He would be at the gates of Heaven, ready to return (Matthew 24:33).

Equally significant, He added an interesting observation: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34). What generation? The generation that sees the fig tree blossom.

so it is obvious that you are sadly mistaken. I would hope that you take to heart what i have laid out here so that you can also enjoy eternal life

think about it
Hayslip

Con

Hayslip forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
scorpionclone

Pro

I want to thank my opponent for the lively debate. I understand the difficulty in debating that we are not in the End Times. I mean look around you.
Hayslip

Con

Hayslip forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
36 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by scorpionclone 9 years ago
scorpionclone
I forgot I should have evolved by now
Posted by Mangani 9 years ago
Mangani
Ok... Mr Ad-hominem. You are really making progress...
Posted by scorpionclone 9 years ago
scorpionclone
Based on those definitions you don't stand for anything. Ever learning but never understanding.

If you claim to know about the Muslim religion, wheres the harm in asking to be enlightened?

First you criticise me for getting my info from the internet, then when I ask you, you tell me to go get it from the internent.

Don't claim to know about the religion, but refuse to answer any questions. Mr. Wizard
Posted by Mangani 9 years ago
Mangani
With these definitions, there is no contradiction in believing or defending any aspect of any religion, and being "supersensitive" towards ignorance is only a personality trait of someone who is against disenfranchisement of any sort.
Posted by Mangani 9 years ago
Mangani
"It's like trying to talk to the wizard of Oz but he keeps hiding beind the curtain when you hit on real questions that he doesn't have answers to."

-Again, your question was loaded and your attitude throughout the conversation has been sickening (as I have already stated). Your statements are not researched and are biased, your questions are loaded, and you have just been completely ignorant in most of what you have said, period.

"Muslims do not believe the same thing as the jews when discussing the end of the world, sorry pal it's just not true"

-They #1- have similar beliefs. #2- where is your explanation and differences? I have pointed out similarities, but you won't even try to contradict them with facts. So am I just to take your word (an unresearched, biased word), over something I have researched my self???

"You seem to be supersenstive about the muslim religion"

-You haven't attacked any other religion with such falsehoods. Obviously you are biased towards Christianity (as a Christian) and Jew/Judaism (from whence Christianity sprung) and have not made as ignorant statements or asked loaded questions as you have with Islam. Education leads you to defend that which you know is being misrepresented.

"agnostic(there may be a God), Unitarian,(God is one) Deist(there's a God but we don't know who or what he is )"

-Those are simplistic definitions. Agnostic- we are not all knowing, and religion tries to envase the complete knowledge of God, which is impossible for humans to attain.

Unitarian- Jesus lived and was an important spritual figure, whatever his role may have been, but he was not God or the "son of God", because God is indivisible in person, essence, or grace.

Deist- Science is of God, can explain and prove the existence of God, was formulated by God, and the sacred texts are primitive descriptions of this science which can be correlated for the most part to modern science through study.
Posted by Mangani 9 years ago
Mangani
"Scorpio was asking you a question and you decided in response that you'd continue to attack him?"

-His question was loaded, as were his previous questions, and they are consistent with his comments about Islam. It is prudent (at least in my book) to educate yourself on a subject you are "really" interested in rather than asking someone you don't even know on the internet. If he respected me as an expert he would have adjusted his behaviour long ago, and since I know he doesn't- the question was loaded.

"What conclusions are we supposed to draw about this man?"

-Homosexuality is illegal in Iran, and I believe they probably would beat a homosexual to death in the streets (as some people would here). Whether or not that is an official position, it is one of social evolution. The US has been "kind" to homosexuals for the past 10 years or so... not such an advance from the Iranian position. You are 19 years old and probably never experienced "Iranian" treatment towards gays- I have had homosexual family members throughout the 80's, I was in the Army during the 90's, and I have seen no difference between the Iranian position and the American one on gays until recently- though maybe not an "official government" position (ask GWB how he feels about gays...).

-As for his response about the holocaust- it makes perfect sense. If his position is that "if the holocaust happend, why would Jews level the same punishment against Palestinians", why is that such a controversial position? I think the point is he is against genocide. You can't ask the guy to be simpathetic towards one group for their genocide, when he is simpathetic towards the group they are committing genocide against.
Posted by scorpionclone 9 years ago
scorpionclone
It's like trying to talk to the wizard of Oz but he keeps hiding beind the curtain when you hit on real questions that he doesn't have answers to.

I tried to ask some "dumb" questions though.

Like:

the 12th imam? Answer : Read about it, but whatever I read he's giong to say I got it from fox news

Muslims do not believe the same thing as the jews when discussing the end of the world, sorry pal it's just not true

You seem to be supersenstive about the muslim religion, have you changed your belief from a agnostic(there may be a God), Unitarian,(God is one) Deist(there's a God but we don't know who or what he is ) to muslim? This is very contradictory in nature
Posted by DoubleXMinus 9 years ago
DoubleXMinus
Mang, Scorpio was asking you a question and you decided in response that you'd continue to attack him? You guys have been going back and forth for quite a while and this is the first time Scorpio was really being genuine and respectful... lol, and your response is this, "I'm all-knowing and you're an idiot..." thing? Heh, anyway

I'm also wanting to bring up Columbus University right away before I'm forced to read about Iran later on in the day, the one thing I'm 100 percent sure about (it was a while ago that he spoke there) was his response to the question that was basically, "Hey, so is it true you beat gay people to death in the streets of Iran?"

His response was to the affect of, "What do you mean? We don't have homosexual people in Iran, I dunno who told you we do..."

Another thing I'm sure of is that he dodged the Holocaust denier question by responding with something like, (Again, these obviously aren't official quotes) "Even if it did occur, should the Palestinian people be suffering for it?"

What conclusions are we supposed to draw about this man? Well, I'll answer that better later on today.
Posted by Mangani 9 years ago
Mangani
Scorpionclone, you sound like the idiots that say Obama is Muslim and he attended a Madrasa as a child...

His belief in the 12th Imam is a Shi'ite belief. If you want to know more about this, then read up on the Shi'a branch of Islam.

Why would he want to hasten the end of the world with nuclear weapons, yet be opposed to the Zionist government in Israel because they were not established by God as Judaism teaches??? Wouldn't this be contradictory to believing God will do as he says- which is a major Muslim belief??? I know you grew up with people telling you there is no such thing as a stupid question- what they were trying to tell you was that they are tired of you asking them... in a nice way...
Posted by scorpionclone 9 years ago
scorpionclone
I agree that the propaganda is outrageous and cannot be believed on either side. If Almindorkydumbijad didn't say those things, then I stand corrected. I will do some more research and try to locate this cspan tape that speak you of.

However, I have a hard time believing that this iranian leader is a sane person after his appearance at Columbis University, and his expectation of the 12th Imam that is appear roughly any day now. Maybe this was lost in translation as you said as well and he doesn't really think this. You might be able to shed some light on this.

But I am curious about this 12 th Imam and his(alminshidadd) belief that when he comes out of the cave he has been in since he diappeared in 1100 something AD that
he is going to bring world peace for 7 years and Jesusu is going to be there with him?

Am I mistaken? can you clarify on this I would be most grateful. I mean that joking aside, as you said I don't have ll the peices together when it comes to the muslim culture.

If he really does beleive this then I have also heard that he is trying to hasten the end of the world, or trying to obtain nuclear weapons in order to bring the Imam back sooner. Just as "Christians" are trying to hasten the second coming of Christ in the same way?

This all could be a repeat of the Irag weapons fiasco as I am afraid of and for the record I do not support Bush and I did not support the Iraq war becasue Congree did not vote for a declaration of war.
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