The Instigator
kjw47
Con (against)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
Flame
Pro (for)
Winning
11 Points

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/11/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,967 times Debate No: 16442
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (44)
Votes (2)

 

kjw47

Con

Gods word teaches this-- The heart is desperate and treacherous who can know it?--This means we dont really know our own hearts, so its impossible for another to read it.
God has written the names in the book of life-only he has seen it.

Knowing these two things i tell you truth-- there isnt a mortal man alive that has the right to tell one he is saved or knows if another is saved. Truth- any religion that does this doesnt have Jesus with them. They are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Flame

Pro

==========
INTRODUCTION
==========

Definitions:

Heart: The center of the total personality, especially with reference to intuition, feeling, or emotion. (Note: In the Christian worldview, the human soul) 1
Read: (appraise) Judge, estimate. (Note: the synonym may describe what my opponent probably meant to say) 2
Truth: 1. the true or actual state of a matter. 2. Conformity with fact or reality. 3

Religion: a.The service and worship of God or the supernatural.
b. Commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance. 4

Salvation: Is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues through that person's life, and is completed when one stand before the judgement seat of Christ. 5

Unregenerate: Not regenerate, not renewwed in heart and mind or reborn in spirit. 6

I have to assume that my opponent's argument is that a person's final destination granted by God can not be known or determined by another individual from the community of Christians (all denominations within the Christian Faith) or other world religions (Non-Christian religions such as Buddhist, Islam, etc (assumption is made based on his statement concerning religions without Jesus ( Jesus, in the understanding of the Christian worldview). The conclusion is based on his two premises which are: 1. The inability to have the knowledge to know anothers ultimate destination and, 2. the inability to make a final evaluation of anyone's character. I would like my readers to note that my opponent did not took the time to list his sources to support his contentions. He also provided no definitions in order for pro and the readers from assuming, but to have a clear understanding of exactly what it is he is affirming, thus leaving me the responsiibility to provide some definitions. Assuming, my opponent's argument would look like this:

1. Only God has the kind of knowledge concerning an individual's ultimate destination.
2. Christian and none Christians does not have this kind of knowledge.
3. Therefore, Christians and none Christians can not make a final evaluation of the absolute value of anybody
because such judgement is reserved only for God.

A. Rebuttals:
1. "The heart is desperate and treacherous who can know it?--This means we dont really know our own hearts, so its impossible for another to read it."

The verse that my opponent is quoting comes from Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" This verse is the description of man's spiritual condition or state (unregenerate heart) after Adam's disobedience. That is to say, according to the Christian worldview, ...."his total being became enslaved by this disposition of enmity against God." 7 Thus, a need to have a new heart which the prophet Ezekiel proclaimed God promised in the Old Testament. 8 The verse itself does not dismiss the Christian from the moral responsibility to make judgement on other Christians when their life is not characterized by obedience and love. There are many verses which require Christians to judge other Christians conduct. 9

a. Salvation must be characterized by obedience and love.

Wynkoop explained it this way, "salvation by faith must not be reduced to a freedom from love and obedience. Salvation by faith is meaningless apart from the faith that works by love." 9 It is why Christ made this statement, ".....but he who endure to the end shall be saved." 10

Note: Sources will be posted on the comment section.
Debate Round No. 1
kjw47

Con

A mortal man inside of the christian place of worship only sees the good side of a member of the flock-Once outside the place of worship a member can be walking the broad and spacious path. These found at Matt 7: 21-23 are presuming to be christian within-They reason within that they have a strong love and faith in Jesus enough to do the things mentioned. I would say the teachers as well have told them they are saved. Yet Jesus never knew them- These are the words at final judgement. Also they accepted Jesus as savior-They will be calling on his name- but it wasnt enough.
Paul at 1 Corinthians 9:27-- Had worries over losing his good standing. So then the once saved always saved reasoning is a false one. No mortal knows his heart well enough to know if they can endure till the end.
Satan is a powerful adversary-Mortals are nothing compared to his power and knowledge. He Got to Gods elite all throuout the ot--examples--King David ( Bathsheba and her husband ) The law was for him to be stoned to death-he was not-Why??? He repented--Moses, Solomon-The israelites fell away many times, until satan finally owned them, grasped them out of the Fathers hand persay. Millions of perfect angels were decieved by him-99.9% of the human race were decieved by him in Noahs day. So i reiterate-- no mortal man knows if another is truly saved. The reason why the road leading to life ( eternal life-being saved ) is narrow and few will find it-- Is because satan has made it the toughest accomplishment a mortal being can do in their lifetime-it wont be handed over on a silver platter by saying 3 lines in a place of worship.
Flame

Pro

Flame forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
kjw47

Con

That is ok Flame- i look forward to your response-i am new here.
Flame

Pro

I apologize first hand for my forfeit to my opponent and the readers. Conduct points should be granted to him. Now on to my rebuttals.

C1: Salvation must be characterized by obedience and love.

a. My opponent gave us the scenario of a member of the Christian community who may display good works in the local church they attend and, yet display the total opposite outside the local church. It is important to recognize the importance of context in Matthew 7:21-23 as far as "the overall thrust and nature of the book as well as its immediate context". 1 Otherwise, it would be committing prooftexting. According to the immediate context, the reason why Christ made such a judgement was because of "praciticing lawlessness" found in verse 23. His teachings end in verse 28, but He starts His teaching in a broad sense on salvation and than goes into the specifics when He talks about wolves in sheeps clothing: knowing their fruits, disobedience, lawlessness, etc in verse 15 and onward. The key words here are "disobedience, practice and lawlessness". Lawlessness is defined as "....sin sets forth its essential character as the rejection of the law, or will, of God and the substitution of the will of self." 2 It is in accordance to 1 John 3:4 which states, "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." Practice is defined as, "habitual or customary performance; operation: office practice." 3 It further supports my argument that salvation needs to be characterized by obedience and love with consistantcy and not sporadic in their life style from the day the individual become regenerate or "born again" until their physical death and appear at the judgement seat of Christ. Secondly, Christ clearly stated that it is possible to discern between those are truly Christians versus those who are simply pretending by judging their conduct. (you shall know their fruits). I have provided corrobative evidence in round 1 in my comment section concerning judging another Christian's conduct. Therefore, my opponent can not rightly say that it is impossible to have a know that an individual is indeed a Christian or not and their high probability of their final destiny if they keep habitually rejecting the will of God and placing self as the ruler by judging their outward conduct. Christ never said that a person has to know the inner motives or their secrets to know that. Wynkoop made this statement, "The Bible teaches two very clear things regarding the Christian believer: (1) there is absolute eternal security "in Christ"; and (2) the responsibility for continued obedience is binding on the Christian." 4 Which is why Paul, the Apostle made the statement in 1 Corinthians 9:27, "but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified." He used the analogy of an athelete and a marathon race to describe salvation and the importance of characterizing it with obedience and love from the immediate context starting in verse 24 and ending in verse 27. In verse 27, there is no hint on the part of Paul that suggests that there is no absolute eternal security "in Christ". It only becomes a danger when the person neglects or ignores his or her salvation.

1. "Had worries over losing his good standing. So then the once saved always saved reasoning is a false one."

a. Worry is defined as, "to torment oneself with or suffer from disturbing thoughts; fret." 5 Paul, never displayed such behavior, attitude or conversation in his letters and he certainly never set a pattern for Timothy, Titus (his apprentices) and the churches he established through out the Roman empire as an example for them to follow such nonesense. Especially for Timothy who had a tendency of being timid and fearful. Read Paul's encouraging words, "For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline." 5 In fact, he was so sure of his absolute eternal security "in Christ" because he knew he lived a life of obedience and love as a response to God's grace towards him. Read his words before he became a martyr, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith." 6 A Christian is not insecure and certainly not tormented by bombarding his mind with endless questions after experiecing the new birth, concerning his salvation unless he has a reason to or is indeed deluded that living a life of disobedience will not endanger it. There is a huge difference between self examination versus being fearful.

2. "Satan is a powerful adversary-Mortals are nothing compared to his power and knowledge. He Got to Gods elite all throuout the ot--examples--King David ( Bathsheba and her husband ) The law was for him to be stoned to death-he was not-Why??? He repented--Moses, Solomon-The israelites fell away many times, until satan finally owned them, grasped them out of the Fathers hand persay. Millions of perfect angels were decieved by him-99.9% of the human race were decieved by him in Noahs day No mortal knows his heart well enough to know if they can endure till the end."

a. There is indeed two dangers when it comes to satan which are: not showing respect as a very dangerous foe and being fearful of him. As far as making the statement that he as an external force can take a Christian believer out of God, the Father's hand? That is a negative. Jesus and the Apostle Paul made it clear that no external forces can take any of the Christian believers out of God's hand or from God's love. 7 The only way that can happen if the Christian believer takes him or herself out of that hand by neglecting his or her salvation.

3. "So i reiterate-- no mortal man knows if another is truly saved. The reason why the road leading to life ( eternal life-being saved ) is narrow and few will find it-- Is because satan has made it the toughest accomplishment a mortal being can do in their lifetime-it wont be handed over on a silver platter by saying 3 lines in a place of worship."

a. Of course it was never promised that from the day the individual is born-again until the judgement seat of Christ it would easy and with no some sort of struggle or opposition. But, again, no external force, including satan can take any Christian believer away from God's hand and His love other than the Christian believer. And also the Christian believer can have the assurance of salvation if he or her has lived a life of obedience and love as Paul the Apostle knew too.

Sources will be posted in the comment section
Debate Round No. 3
44 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Flame 5 years ago
Flame
"You must be misunderstanding me- i am not arguing or debating--I set down facts of reality by planting seeds in hopes they find fertile soil and the hearer is wise like the boreans and makes sure of all things."

If you are setting down facts than why not list your sources from which you gather your facts? And the very little that you do gave as evidence ought to match up with what your saying. It was not even close. Also, the Berean believed Paul's message because he did not just isolate passsages of the Bible and presented it out of context. He provided a body of evidence and his sources. They came to the conclusion that what he shared with them was indeed matching the facts. 1 That is truth is correspondant to fact. "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." 2

1 http://plato.stanford.edu...
2 Acts 17:11
Posted by kjw47 5 years ago
kjw47
You must be misunderstanding me- i am not arguing or debating--I set down facts of reality by planting seeds in hopes they find fertile soil and the hearer is wise like the boreans and makes sure of all things. I know this board is set up to be a debate board, but i thought i would plant seeds anyways. I know i take for granted that most on boards like these have read Gods word and studied it. But many reason within themselves many false things.Example--Matt 7:21-23--these have reasoned that they love God And Jesus very much and their fellow man-No doubt they were told they were saved because they accepted Jesus as savior and they will call on his name-How many called Christian are in this boat? Why? Because the teachers were false . They didnt have a clue as to who actually will be saved and have no right telling anyone that they are saved.
Posted by Flame 5 years ago
Flame
Which is what the Pharisee did for that actually. Rather than investigating the list of sources and body of evidence that Jesus gave them, they attacked Him personally (they even so much as went as far as saying He was opertaing under the power of satan). So who is acting as a Pharisee?
Posted by Flame 5 years ago
Flame
"Where did i attack you personally?"

By insinuating that I am reasoning as a Pharisee and thus a tool of satan rather than actually attacking my argument. So yeah, it is a ad hominem. If my set of reason are weka, do so by actuaklly engaging in the arguement.
Posted by Flame 5 years ago
Flame
"Where did i attack you personally? I am not looking for pity from anyone-just stating facts"

I do think you understand what it means to give an argument. It means to, "offer a set of reasons or evidence in support of a conclusion."1 It's not just givinga simple statement here and there with no body of evidence, hence the need for listing your sources. Which is why I posted earlier that the "purpose of primary and secondary sources is to not depend on our own personal knowledge and experience. Arguments supported by such sources are relied upon for clarification and verification. Especially to test our own wolrdviews since research can yield new information, sharpen our perception, and lend authority to our contentions." 2 Why is that important? Because the main purpose of giving arguments is "a way to finding out which views are better than others" 3 I would have to agree with Weston when he said that, "not all views are equal."4 Why? Because there are a range of interpretations. Within that range there is always one interpretaion that is better and stronger, and closer to reality or state of affairs than another. It is also your responsibility to give a logical defense according to the Bible: "But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." 5

1 Weston, Anthony "A Rulebook for Arguments, 4th edition, pg. xi
2 MLA Handbook For Writers of Reserach Papers, Theses, and Dissertations, 1977" pg. 1
3 Weston, Anthony "A Rulebook for Arguments, 4th edition, pg. xi
4 Weston, Anthony "A Rulebook for Arguments, 4th edition, pg. xi
5 1 Peter 3:15 (Amplified)
Posted by kjw47 5 years ago
kjw47
Where did i attack you personally? I am not looking for pity from anyone-just stating facts.
Posted by Flame 5 years ago
Flame
"No need flame- i am not a debater like you. i can see clearly what truth is- thanks anyways"

So why even post the comment about the 144,000 and the Lord's Supper to begin with? And, it is not even relevant to the debate we just had anyways. You also committed another logical fallacy known as "ad misericordiam". That is, you are appealling to pity from me and our readers for special treatment just because you happened to not be a "debater". That is inappropiate in this case since the purpose of a debate is to objectively evaluate both arguments.
Posted by Flame 5 years ago
Flame
That is very much unbecoming to attack me and not my argument. It's called "ad honminem".
Posted by Flame 5 years ago
Flame
"Exactly what the pharisees were saying about Jesus religion back then- it worked for satan then and now. Same reasoning-They didnt learn in the schools of men."

a. That is nice, so when will you actually post your sources and evidence and actually give a coherent argument?
Posted by kjw47 5 years ago
kjw47
No need flame- i am not a debater like you. i can see clearly what truth is- thanks anyways.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Koopin 5 years ago
Koopin
kjw47FlameTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had the best argument. Gave Con the conduct because of the forfeit.
Vote Placed by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
kjw47FlameTied
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Total points awarded:16 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited a round, but had geneally more convincing arguments.