The Instigator
Lookingatissues
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
TBR
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Aren't we Americans getting a little tired of hearing," Thats not who we are...."

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/19/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 803 times Debate No: 71978
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
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Lookingatissues

Pro

Aren't we Americans getting a little tired of hearing," That's not who we are...."

Aren't we Americans getting a little tired of hearing," That's not who we are...." every time someone wants to kick America around, I for one American have had my fill of these Hate- America bashers, holier-than- thou, getting before an audience and pounding their chests and pontificating in righteous indignation about evil America. "That's not who we are as Americans, they say but if America is thought by them to be so evil and not who we are, aren't they addressing and attempting to cast shame on a country and its people who are beyond shaming.
It would seem to me that these "better-than-thou," people are wasting their efforts in trying to shame America, if America is as bad as they claim America to be. Oh, America did this, shame on America, Oh America did that, Shame, shame on America, "That's not who we are," they shout. As Reverent J. Wright, Obama's pastor for 20 years, proclaimed from the pulpit, "Not God Bless America, NO,NO, but God Damn America." IT would appear that those who chastise America and never fail to point out some perceived flaw in America's conduct must be disciples of Saul D. Alinsky and are putting into practice what the radical wrote in his "Rules for Radicals" and are busily attempting to embarrass America every time they're given the opportunity to do so.
If America is such a bad country, why do so many risk everything, including their very lives to come to America, these immigrants aren't fleeing America to immigrate to Russia or some other communist country, no, they risk everything to come to America, explain that, all those who Hate America, Explain that, if you can!
TBR

Con

National identity, patriotism, concepts that define our collective culture and attachment to a homeland. These are important to any nation, and I argue that they are of particular importance to a country like America where concepts are our cornerstones rather than race or religion. The term at issue in this debate "That's not who we are..." begs the question, if the subject of the admonishment isn't who we are, then just exactly who are we?

Let's start with some examples of where this phrase is getting used. It has been tied to a national political stage connected with the American torture program and with national programs to spying on our own people. When we say this phrase, the implied meaning is, this is not typically or historically how we have behaved, and not how we would like to behave.

Examining a part of pros opening argument – "they say but if America is thought by them to be so evil and not who we are, aren't they addressing and attempting to cast shame on a country and its people who are beyond shaming." Shows both the proper intent of the phrase, and part of the problem understanding the reason for using it. Yes, in context, the phrase is meant to shame as well as excuse. It attempts to say, we don’t intend to behave like this in the future, not that we are "beyond shaming".

When pro says "IT would appear that those who chastise America and never fail to point out some perceived flaw in America's conduct must be disciples of Saul D. Alinsky and are putting into practice what the radical wrote in his 'Rules for Radicals' and are busily attempting to embarrass America every time they're given the opportunity to do so." It is baseless assertion. Acknowledging national misconduct is a healthy thing. Painting the efforts to understand where we go wrong as a negative is cowardly behavior.

Pro is correct that our country is a magnet for immigrants. It is a country with promise, and a desirable place to move to. Pro says – "If America is such a bad country, why do so many risk everything, including their very lives to come to America, these immigrants aren't fleeing America to immigrate to Russia or some other communist country, no, they risk everything to come to America, explain that, all those who Hate America, Explain that, if you can!". There is little really to explain. At least not for someone who thinks that America IS a great place. The only explanation needed is… well, the explanation for why we have made the mistakes we make, and what we will do about it. “That’s not who we are [we will work to make sure we don’t do it again]

Back to pro
Debate Round No. 1
Lookingatissues

Pro

All the things you talk about in your rebuttel, "National identity, patriotism"... are important qualities that should be instilled into every Americans hearth at a very early stage of an American's life by their parents,by America's schools and churches and other American citizens who were lucky enough to live in this country and enjoy the benefits of being free to be whatever their natural God-given talents would permit them to be.
No objective is beyond their reach if an American applies themselves in an effort to achieve the goals they set for themselves. Even a person of color in a country in which it is claimed descriminates against blacks and other minorities,can obtain the highest station, that of becoming president of the United States.
America, unlike other countries, doesn't recognize a supreme ruler like a dictator, a king or a queen who hold their station because of royal blood lines as other countries do,here the average, everyday, American determines who will be their leaders by their votes , not by force. All peoples are welcome here as long as they are willing to abide by America's laws or don't try to overthrow the countries government by subversion or other means. When citizens cast their stones at America for not being perfect, , which country, I might ask, would they set as an example that have been paragons of virtuous conduct which America should emulate, would it be Germany which under Hitler exterminated thousands of Jews, a country which had the German children spying and turning in their parents,
Shouldn't America be more like Russia with its GULAGS "...."....GULAG....s"the prison camp systems that arose in the Soviet Union after 1929"served primarily as a way to gain control over the entire population, rather than punish criminal acts. The incarceration of millions of innocent people in the GULAG system is correctly seen as one of the worst and most shocking episodes of the twentieth century. The "Katyn forest Massacre Polish soldiers and policemen were captured and ... 925 Polish officers who were prisoners of war were killed in the Katyn Forest Massacre ..."
Is Russia an example for America to follow. Those who say, "That's not who we are...." are holding America up to ridicule saying in effect, that America has failed and isn't perfect but in comparison to other countries with their blemished past histories, America is as close to utopia as will ever be found on this earth.
Jeanie Kirkpatrick at the 1984 Republican National Convention and delivered a speech in which she spoke about those who "Blame America First" in her keynote speech..." Jeanie Kirkpatrick realized that there were Americans and foreign countries which held nothing but disdain for America, often use the tired, overused expression," That's not who we are.." These people who fall back on this tired old expression never took the trouble to learn of America's great past history They can't possibly know what America is or isn't, all they know is that they hate America.
Google News Archive
"1984 Jeanie Kirkpatrick United States Ambassador to the United Nations, "... the 1984 Republican National Convention,....delivered the "Blame America First" keynote speech..."

9 Polish-Russian relations; ...
Background "
j25;http://en.wikipedia.org...
TBR

Con

"When citizens cast their stones at America for not being perfect, , which country, I might ask, would they set as an example that have been paragons of virtuous conduct which America should emulate"

America. That’s the benchmark being used in the statement “that’s not who we are” is addressing - our own high standard. The virtue we are using as our model is US.

"..would it be Germany which under Hitler exterminated thousands of Jews, a country which had the German children spying and turning in their parents, Shouldn't America be more like Russia with its GULAGS…"

Why would America be proud of just being better than these examples? The implication is, just so long as American is beating Nazi Germany, or Russia under Stalin, all is well. No, that’s preposterous. The standard for the conduct of our country is higher than that, and when we find mistakes we make, it serves us well to admit them and work to rectify them.

"These people who fall back on this tired old expression never took the trouble to learn of America's great past history They can't possibly know what America is or isn't, all they know is that they hate America."

Another bare assertion. They, I would retort, seem to understand our proud history better than you! Just as bare, and just as personaly beleived.
Debate Round No. 2
Lookingatissues

Pro

The world and its different countries that its composed of have to be perceived as they are, not as we might wish that they were if America is to survive. If, as is the case,we in America allow ourselves to be fooled into believing that every nation, as well as all of America's citizens have only the best intentions towards America we're going to pay a serious price for our naivete in our dealings with them.
America has been deceived for too long into believing that its the big sophisticated, most powerful nation on the block and are negotiating with lesser knowledgeable worldly governments and as such we have to be careful that we don't take advantage of their innocence when dealing with them.
America, these nations leaders tell our representatives, that America is way too smart to attempt to put anything over on you all the while they are doing America with reckless abandonment laughing behind America back for having bought their hokum so easily. when we are told," That's not who we are, Its the same hokum, only its hokum coming from America's own citizens and like the foreign countries who are deceiving us, they too are laughing behind our backs at how easily we bought into their hokum.
You posted, "Another bare assertion. They, I would retort, seem to understand our proud history better than you..." These Americans who go about saying such trite phrases as "That's not who we are, or we're better than that," know, from our past history, that America's leaders are easy, they'll believe anything... games on...
TBR

Con


Pros closing argument seems completly off point. At no point in this debate did pro attempt to affirm the question. I, as an American, am not "a little tired of hearing, 'Thats not who we are....'". Pro did not fulfil his burden of proof. Vote con.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by TBR 2 years ago
TBR
find your argument, not "argument your argument."
Posted by TBR 2 years ago
TBR
@Lookingatissues - look, you couldn't seem to argument your argument, lost to assertion. That you don't like democrats was not lost on me, but you did nothing to argue your point.

If you want to attempt to backup the, again baseless assertion below, I would debate the resolution "Obama has never apologized to another country"
Posted by Lookingatissues 2 years ago
Lookingatissues
Pro's Response being made up below to Con.. on3-20-2015 on DEBATE.org... Lookingattheissues
The response that I gave isn't off the point of the subject, I was hoping that you could see the nuances/relationship to what I posted and the subject, " Aren't we Americans getting a little tired of hearing," That's not who we are...." The liberal politicians in Washington who are supposed to represent all Americans have in the past gone around the world apologizing for America, Bill Clinton, in a speech apologized for America, Barack Obama, not to miss a opportunity to slam the country who, by the way, wasn't too ashamed of America, to accept the position of its president. The comment about America, When made by Obama, or other liberals like," That's not who we are, we're better than that is a backhanded compliment. An example of a backhanded compliment is your mother-in-law saying "My goodness, I'm surprised at how good this dinner was since I know you usually have such trouble with cooking."
To paraphrase the title of this debate," Aren't we Americans getting a little tired of hearing," That's not who we are...."
"Bill Clinton apologizing for America..... Bill Clinton apologizes to Mexico for the war on Drugs...."
Obama puts down America," President Barack Obama has declared that America has..... "shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive" towards its allies...." You responded,". I, as an American, am not "a little tired of hearing, 'That's not who we are....'" Liberals never get tired of trashing America, This, after all, is their bona fides.
Posted by Lookingatissues 2 years ago
Lookingatissues
Posted by debate_power 17 hours ago
You replied," You still think Russia is a communist country? I have to assume you're an American, lol"

"Russia was a communist state until 1991when the U.S.S.R disintegrated. Russia is now officially a capitalist state though there are a considerable number of people who support communism."
".... The ruling party...in, Russia, the communist party.... which both "Vladimir Putin and Dmitri Medvedev belong to ... is the dominant political party"
""Russia ..... a dictatorship run by officials of the former KGB) "

"A distinction without a difference"
Posted by debate_power 2 years ago
debate_power
You still think Russia is a communist country? I have to assume you're an American, lol
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