The Instigator
RocketEngineer
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
ConservativePolitico
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

Ariel Castro VS Jodi Arias (who is worse?)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
ConservativePolitico
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/9/2013 Category: News
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,822 times Debate No: 33518
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (3)

 

RocketEngineer

Pro

Hello everyone! Based on the two biggest issues on the news during the last week, I think this would be a fun debate. How this will work, is that my opponent will pick one person in round one. This debate will be about determining who is more sick and twisted out of Jodi Arias, and Ariel Castro.

I will take either one. Debate will take place in rounds 2 and 3. Thanks in advance to whoever accepts this. :)
ConservativePolitico

Con

Thanks for the creative debate idea!

I will be debating that Ariel Castro is "more sick and twisted" than Jodi Arias.

Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
RocketEngineer

Pro

So my opponent has chosen Castro! This should be fun!

In this debate, I will attempt to prove that Jodi Arias is more sick and twisted than Ariel Castro.
Before I begin, I would like to clarify that in my opinion, both individuals are extremely sick and twisted, and deserve an eternity of torment and hell for what they have done. I am bringing up this topic because I have been consistently watching these two cases on CNN almost everyday for the last two weeks, and have been mentally struggling with myself how people could commit such horrible acts. Also I've been comparing the cases, wondering which one made me more sick to think about, and couldn't come to a conclusion. So in this debate, I will do my absolute best to research and find the most evidence I can in support for my position.

To start let me describe a little bit about both cases (very briefly so as not to take up too much space.

Ariel Castro: Ariel Castro is a 52 year old Bus Driver in Cleveland Ohio, who just this past week, was discovered to have kidnapped three woman for 10 years. He is being charged with rape, torture, and murder (Knights 5 alleged misconceptions caused by Castro).

Read more:
http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://abcnews.go.com...
http://www.cnn.com...

Jodi Arias: Jodi Arias was placed in police custody in 2008 for the murder of her Ex-Boyfriend Travis Alexander. The murder was gruesome, and dis-heartening. After manipulating Travis into committing sexual acts with her Jodi stabbed Travis 27 times, slit his throat (almost resulting in decapitation), before shooting him. Travis's death was one of the most gruesome bloody murders of the decade. The trial unfortunately has been carried on for 4 years, and just recently ended with Jodi getting found Guilty by the Jury.
http://www.hlntv.com...
http://crimeandcourtsnews.blogspot.com...


Argument 1: Arias and Castro behind the scenes

Now both people have done something horrible. Both people have made it clear that they are worthless, evil, cruel individuals. But let's take into account the personalities of both individuals. Ariel Castro, when arrested for his crimes, not once denied his guilt. He openly has admitted that the kidnapping and abuse was horrible, and stands ready for whatever punishment will come his way.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com...

Outside of his kidnapping, Castro was known by most of his neighbors, as a friendly person. People in the neighborhood commonly thought of him as a good guy. Most interviews with the neighbors bore complete and utter shock.

Charles Ramsey, and another neighbor (video included above), both vouch that they never knew Castro was capable of doing what he did.

https://www.youtube.com...

https://www.youtube.com...

While this doesn't detract from his obvious cruel and disgusting crime, it is better in comparison to Jodi Arias.

Jodi Arias has been labeled as manipulative, and a liar several times. And from watching the news reports, and court sessions, I would have to agree 100% that the popular opinion is indeed a fact.

In the beginning Jodi adamantly denied she was involved in her ex-boyfriends killing. In the link I provided above, there is a video in which she flat out lies to a police officer several times despite being presented with blood evidence, DNA evidence, and nude photos of her and Travis at the scene of the crime. She has manipulated ad hid things from court sessions multiple times, and consistently refuses to take responsibility for Travis's death. Her personality is neither honest, or integral. Jodi represents the heart of pure evil, such that her request for death row should be instantly gratified.

Argument 2: Gravity of the crime.

Again, I can stress enough how much both crimes are so evil and atrocious, it's hard to grasp how a human could even do such things. However, let's determine the overall gravity of both crimes, and how they compare to each other. Ariel Castro Kidnapped, raped, abused, and tortured 3 woman for 10 years. By some miracle, these woman were freed, and now actually have a chance at recovering and healing. While they may have permanent psychological damage, they have the opportunity to have a lot of that fixed, as they get to be loved and cared for by their friends and families. Travis Alexander family, unfortunately, is denied the same privilege. His brother, will never be able to see Travis again. His mother and father will never get to watch as their son grows and becomes successful in his life, or pursues his ultimate happiness. And why is this? Because a selfish, aggravated, jealous woman took that away from him in the fury of one night. She chose to play God, and she chose to end Travis's life that night, luring him in with sexual pleasures. Travis was manipulated, and taken advantage of in the worst way, before suffering an awful death. A death, that Jodi denied responsibility for. Now she has gone 4 years, escaping justice, while Travis's family live in pain, knowing their beloved Travis's killer is still alive, and well. Now I know my argument may have been an appeal to emotion, but the intended purpose is to show and prove the underlying difference in these cases. One, is a case of hope, and future, while the other is a prolonged case of misery. Will Jodi's Sentence really bring peace to Travis's family? I can't say for sure that it will, however, I think a lot of people can say that death can never be remedialed by revenge. The three kidnapped girls have a chance to live, a chance to love, and a chance to grow.

It is for these reasons, that I believe Jodi Arias, is more evil, more sick, and more deserving of the fiery pits of a hell (if there is one), than Ariel Castro.

I look forward to my opponents response. :)
ConservativePolitico

Con

Arguments for Ariel Castro

Argument 1: Behind the Scenes

My opponent claims that since Arias was more manipulative and a liar that she is worse behind the scenes than Castro. He claims that Castro was never seen as a bad guy and it was a shock to his neighbors that he was capable of such horrors. But isn't that worse? He tortured girls, raped them, kidnapped them, starved them, kept them locked up and then was able to walk outside and barbecue with his neighbors like nothing was wrong. This is a level of sociopathy that is far more sick and twisted than a pathological liar. He felt no outward guilt or shame about his horrendous behavior and thus was able to act in such a way that made him appear normal in public.

Castro even attended the vigil for the missing girls and consoled the parents and vowed to help look for them! [1] He looked the girls' parents in the eye and gave them words of comfort when he had their daughters locked away in his house! Can you be more twisted? He said he'd help look for them. In this behavior, he was an even bigger liar than Arias was. Moving suspicion off of himself by doing these things makes him just as, if not more, manipulative than Arias.

After all, Arias' behavior was normal courtroom behavior. Lawyers use lies and manipulation in court all the time to try and sway juries and distract the prosecution all the time. Her behavior is easily understood and unsurprising. But barbecuing with your neighbors after giving your three teenage sex slaves a romp in the basement? It doesn't even compare.

Argument 2: Gravity of the Crime

Murder is horrible. It's a terrifying moment where a life is snuffed out. But after that moment, it's over. Travis is dead, yes, but there are fates worse than death. In the closing statements of her trial, prosecutors said that Arias "killed him three times over" [2] meaning he was dead long before most of the gruesome details were committed. Instead, to be locked up for 10 years. 10 years! An entire decade. Being repeatedly raped. Forced to bear children and then miscarry via starvation and brutality. Being chained up. Not being allowed to leave the property for an entire decade. No contact with the outside world. Having your child threatened in order to get you to behave. This is hell.


Ten years is a long time and these girls were forced to give up the best years of their lives, the most vulnerable years of their lives, to a monster and now will be scarred for life. While yes, they have their lives will they ever truly live again? No amount of counseling will be able to rid these girls of the trauma of this event. One girl is in the hospital because she can't cope with the outside world. You say Travis's family won't get peace? Will these family's get peace? While they watch their daughters suffer the aftermath of this event. They have to watch TV and see Castro knowing all of the horrible things he did to their daughters.

This was a form of slavery and torture and historically, many people gave their lives to avoid both slavery and torture. They didn't leave the house for ten years. Murder is terrible but Travis is at peace. He's dead. Sleeping the eternal sleep while the world turns around him. He suffered a fate we all will suffer one day. His just came early. These girls suffered something no human should ever have to go through. They were subjected to hell on Earth for an entire decade.

Conclusion

Castro's ability to function normally outside of his house and interact with his neighbors and even the families of the girls shows a level of sociopathy and sickness rarely seen in people. His lies were far worse than Arias's. He locked up girls and tortured them for a decade with repeated rapes and psychological horror. He subjected them to something no human should be forced to bear. Arias did brutally murder her boyfriend yes, but murder is not uncommon and death is something we all must face one day. This is why Castro is far more sick and twisted than Jodi Arias.

Thank you.

[1] http://www.ryot.org...
[2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...223368.html
Debate Round No. 2
RocketEngineer

Pro

Argument 1: Behind the scenes

My opponent claims that Ariel Castro's motives in attending the girl's vigil and vowing to look for them is a reason that makes him more sick. This however isn't true. The woman he kidnapped were all still alive and breathing under his roof, and if anything, he even did better by their parent's, by attributing to giving hope to the families of the girls. No psycholical harm came to the families Directly from Castro's actions (obviously indirectly). They had no idea Castro at the time had anything to do with the kidnapping. The difference is with Jodi, that during the 5 year trial, the family of Jodi knew full well she was responsible for the murder. The fact that she continuosly lied about it, and was "Getting away with murder" would be a constant stress. Imagine having to know that the person who killed you son, brother, nephew, grandson, was still alive and well, and might get off scott free simply because they lied and snaked their way out of the trial? For 5 years, the family of Travis Alexander had to deal with this. They had to deal with seeing fans, and supporters of Jodi Arias, who blindly followed the woman despite all the evidence against her, and a very clear motive.

The fact that Ariel attended the vigil, if anything, is something to show that he is far less twisted than Arias. He felt bad for what he did, and felt he was in too deep to do anything about it. By attending the vigil, he did no more harm than he was already doing to the family. What he did was still wrong, and he deserved to be tortured, and live the rest of his days in hell for what he did. But he had a conscious. He chose not to follow it.

Also in a letter he wrote in 2004, apparently a suicide note, we see into Castro's mind a little deeper. He has always felt bad about what he did. He even stated he was willing to leave all of his money to his victims. While this will never re-compensate the three girls to what he took overall, the attempt is still there. Jodi will never be able to do the same for Travis, or his family.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Next my opponent states that he believes Jodi's behavior in the court room was normal. This isn't entirely true though. Jodi had the oppertunity to get much less of a sentence than she did. She may have even gotten away with her defense plea, is she hadn't lied so much to the court. Also the way Travis was found killed, and the circumstances of his death were already substantial proof that she had planned it. But the point is, there was no "good" reason for her trial to have gone on for so long with everything they had against her. The fact that she had murdered Travis, and afterwords trying to appolagize to his family about it without even acknowledging that she did anything wrong is just horrible.

At least Castro tried to be a pleasant person in his outside life, his actions inside being irrepriable.

Argument 2: Gravity of the crime

My opponent has brought up some points, that I would like to put to rest here. He says that these girls suffered through 10 years of hell, and may never be fully psycholically healed. This is true, definitely. But there is potential for them to live and lead a good life now. They didn't have that before. Their lives are completely free for them to do whatever they want with now. There have been plenty of people in the past (major historical figures even) who have been through some of the same things they have. Many deployed soldiers have to go without food and water for several days, lose communication to most of the outside world, see horrible things, and risk their life on a daily basis. Even John MCcain been a POW, yet still had recovered (at least enough to continue to campaign). The point is these woman have potential to have their lives completely flipped around.

Life doesn't have to be so horrible now, and they can actually do something, lead others, raise children, and live. Them being being found was an absolute miracle, and the fact they they were only kidnapped, gives them the oppertunity to much more.

The big difference with Jodi, is that Travis will never again get to do anything. He no longer get's to love. No longer get's to have goals, dreams, and live a joyous life. His murder completely irradicated any possibility of that ever happening.

The gravity of murder far outweighs the gravity of a temporary though traumatizing kidnapping.

The point is, Grief, and traumatic experience is curable. Death is not.

http://www.tc.umn.edu...

Conclusion:

My opponent has made some very great points in this debate so far, and I thank him again for accepting it and opening me up to new thoughts on the matter. However for this debate, I urge the voters to vote for me, on the principal of what we have weighed so far. I feel I have shown that the actions of Jodi Arias are irreversible, while those of Castro can be fixed. I have also shown in a great amount of detail, how the personality of Jodi's is far more twisted than that of Castro's. While both have done horrible things, one at least expresses that he has a conscious, while the other only expresses emotion out of self interest. Jodi Cries the hardest when she learns of her guilt, but when confronted about the death of her ex-lover Travis Alexander, can only easily find lies to get her out of her situation.

Thanks for reading this debate! Vote PRO!
ConservativePolitico

Con

Argument 1: Behind the Scenes

The point being made in my mentioning that Castro attended vigil's and talked to the families of his victims was to show that Castro's lies were much graver and deeper than Arias's. Arias merely lied about her motives and her premeditation, an understandable and unsurprising lie to tell in court. Castro lied to the faces of his victim's families and said that he would help search for them. This to me shows a much sicker personality, someone who can stare into those people's eyes and say such blatant lies shows a level of sociopathy that goes much deeper than Jodi Arias. Also, the parents of Castro's victims DID suffer the same sort of things that Travis's family did. The girls were presumed dead. [1] They were presumed dead for years and no perpetrator had been found so in their minds, someone did get away with murder.

"By attending the vigil, he did no more harm than he was already doing to the family."
The point about the vigil was not saying that he harmed the family in going, it's that he went full well knowing that he was the perpetrator of the crime. He went for his own sick benefit, shrouded in lies to show fake condolence for the victims. This shows an inner twisted psyche. Most people could not face the level of guilt and shame that would present itself at such an event but Castro bore it and went on to continue his crime until caught.

Also, "guilt", something that can never be truly proven, does not detract from the actions preformed including the cover ups and the lies to the families and the prolonged torture of these victims. If Ariel really and truly did feel guilt, would he have continued his crime for a decade? Logic would say otherwise. If Amanda Berry hadn't escaped, every indication shows that he would have continued this crime indefinitely showing that he really had no intention of stopping, guilt ridden or otherwise. He was prepared to subject these three women to a perpetual servitude.

Again, I want to reiterate that Arias's behavior in court was normal. She was trying to avoid premeditation, an act of self defense. She never truly denied the crime, only the circumstances. This was done to try and preserve whatever she could in the face of her guilt. It's a completely normal thing to do. That doesn't make it right but it does not display the same level of sickness that Castro portrayed in his behaviors.

Argument 2: Gravity of the Crime

If we compare the level of suffering between the victims, Travis's suffering is relatively small. Yes, he suffered pain and eventual death but it was a relatively quick incident. Death is the permanent end to all true suffering. On the other hand, these girls went through a far longer and more agonizing ordeal. If we take the principle of proportional punishment into consideration using suffering as the benchmark for punishment we can see that the total suffering of the women is much higher and that Castro would actually get a more severe punishment based on such a comparison.

As my opponent claims, grief is curable. That includes Travis's family's grief. They will heal and move on as all people who lose loved ones eventually do. Death, as I stated previously, is an unavoidable condition that all people must go through eventually so the crime was not in itself unusual. Being tortured and locked away for an entire decade, deprived of outside contact, education, freedom etc is not something people normally endure therefore, I would argue, this type of crime committed on the level it was is actually more grave.

Also, Arias succumbed to something not unusual for humans: rage, loss of control, violence. Her brief period of madness resulted in a death. But it was a brief period. Castro had to keep himself in a state of mind that enabled him to keep his captives, torture them, rape them, abuse them etc [2] for ten years. His mindset was perpetuated far longer than Arias's was. This enduring state of monstrous action and thought was indefinite in Castro while Arias's was brief. This shows a deeper level of twisted evil in Castro than in Arias.

Travis is dead, his family's grief will be healed. The women will live, yes, but they are forced to live in a state they were never meant to live in. They will live with these memories, the shame, the horror for the rest of their lives. While technically this CAN be fixed, there's no saying that it will. These women are forever changed. And Castro bestowed this one them willingly, knowingly and perpetually.

Conclusion

The gravity of the crime, the behavior and mindset of the perpetrator are clearly much more twisted in Ariel Castro than in Jodi Arias. The level of suffering committed and the length of the mindset required to commit it was much, much more severe in Castro than in Arias. While both people displayed a level of inhumanity during their ordeals it has come to my attention that Castro's was much deeper and profound than Arias's.

Thank you.

[1] http://www.covertimes.com...
[2] http://hollywoodlife.com...
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by RocketEngineer 4 years ago
RocketEngineer
The conservative, you debated great as well! Good luck! :)
Posted by ConservativePolitico 4 years ago
ConservativePolitico
Good debate! I want to thank Pro for his interesting and relevant topical choice and commend him on his debate skills.

Thanks!
Posted by VaasMontenegro 4 years ago
VaasMontenegro
I think that we should give Jodi Arias to Ariel Castro, and launch them into outer space. It will be the first imprisoned space rape/murder in history.
Posted by leojm 4 years ago
leojm
I like this debate. :D
Posted by RocketEngineer 4 years ago
RocketEngineer
Awesome arguments. I actually agree with you on some of the points, so this will be a devils advocate for me.
Posted by ConservativePolitico 4 years ago
ConservativePolitico
The last link broke somehow, here's the real version again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Posted by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
Lol awesome.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
RocketEngineerConservativePoliticoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Great debate! I think conservative won this on a slight tip though on gravity of the crime. Weighing the overall psychological effects on the woman, demonstrates a drastic climax of that done on the family of Jodi Arias. Also I am sure each of these woman would rater die, than ever of had to go through what they did. Travis's death was the ultimate, easy escape, while all the of those women suffered something probably worse than hell (if it exists). Also considering we don't know the full circumstances behind Jodi's case (whether she actually did it in self defense or not) are still not 100% proven. Though it is extremely unlikely, that she didn't do it because she is a twisted heartless fiend, it's not as clear cut as Castro. Also Jodi had a brief moment of insanity. Her crime happened in one night, whereas Castro's happened over the course of 10 years, and not just one victim, as in Jodi's case. Rocket, you made some good arguments, but overall, is death really worse than torture?
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
RocketEngineerConservativePoliticoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Counter to Greematthew, by forum request.
Vote Placed by Greematthew 4 years ago
Greematthew
RocketEngineerConservativePoliticoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro made some very good points. As did con.