The Instigator
HazelMystic
Pro (for)
Losing
22 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Winning
35 Points

Artificial Human #17 would have likely defeated Piccolo if Cell hadn't arrived...

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/23/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,141 times Debate No: 10931
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (73)
Votes (13)

 

HazelMystic

Pro

Artificial Human #17 would have likely defeated Piccolo if Cell hadn't arrived...

How the debate will lay out...

I will demonstrate that Artificial Human #17 would have likely defeated Piccolo had Cell not interrupted the fight. For authenticity, I will reference the original manga to base my assertions (anime contains filler).

Let the debate begin!
Logical-Master

Con

Greetings to my opponent and many thanks for hosting this debate. In today's case, I shall prove that Cyborg #17 would have probably lost to Piccolo had the duel between the two continued without interruption.

==========
FIGHTING SKILL |
==========

We should keep in mind that it was stated that Piccolo and #17 were evenly matched in terms of power (1). Naturally, my opponent is without a doubt going to rely on the fact that #17 had an limitless supply of stamina whereas Piccolo did not. However, this advantage would bear little to no meaning in terms of the outcome of that fight.

Piccolo was the more skilled fighter between the two. Based on his comments about #17 not knowing how to throw an effective punch, my assertion is well warranted (2). With superior fighting skill, Piccolo has the better chance of ending the fight before he is out of stamina.

Granted that 17 is easy to distract as we saw earlier on in the battle when the namekian Z warrior had nearly ensnared him in the technique which is colloquially referred to as the "Hell Zone grenade" (3). If Piccolo were to mount another assault which relied on 17's lowered guard, he would likely be successfully killing him with a devastating ki attack.

==================
2: What techniques to use?|
==================

So with that being established, the question is what attack to use.

1) Piccolo could simply increase his size to a level which grants him far greater strength as he did in Dragon Ball (4). As my source indicates, even when doing this, his speed doesn't decrease at all. Thus, while being much larger, Piccolo will be much stronger and shall hence have a definite edge over 17. As long as he didn't become too big and kept his guard up, 17 would be unable to take advantage of his size as Goku did during their battle.

2) Piccolo could use the muliform technique to duplicate himself, followed by a special beam cannon. Although the duplication would divide his power in half, use of the special beam cannon would be 1.5x the power #17 has. As we see during the battle with Raditz, the special beam cannon multiplies Piccolo's fighting power three fold (5). The only problem would be powering the technique up long enough for it to be usable, hence the role the duplicate serves. If Piccolo used the multiform technique while out of #17's site (i.e. he could allow 17 to knock him into the sea of water nearby and perform the technique then), he can have his duplicate stall 17 for a little while. #17 would likely fall for this since he had already believed that Piccolo's finite amount of stamina would eventually weaken him.

With #17 believing that he was only fighting one fighter, this would allow Piccolo ample opportunity to power up the special beam cannon and then to vanquish him with it while he was off guard.

NOTE: The Special beam cannon increases Piccolo's power level three fold because his power level while using it was stated to be 1330 whereas his normal power level around that time was barely over 400.

SOURCES:

#1: http://www.mangafox.com...
#2: http://www.mangafox.com...
#3: http://www.mangafox.com...
#4:http://www.mangafox.com...
#5:http://www.mangafox.com...
Debate Round No. 1
HazelMystic

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for agreeing to debate on this, as I am positive that it will make for an interesting discussion.

Technique Argument
----------------------------
My opponent makes reference to Piccolo's Super Large Body Technique, and the Multi-Form technique as an attempt to explain why Piccolo might eclipse #17 in this fight, but his argument is not without it's flaws. My opponent 'Logical Master', proposes the following scenario: "Piccolo could simply increase his size to a level which grants him far greater strength as he did in Dragon Ball. As my source indicates, even when doing this, his speed doesn't decrease at all. Thus, while being much larger, Piccolo will be much stronger and shall hence have a definite edge over 17. As long as he didn't become too big and kept his guard up, 17 would be unable to take advantage of his size as Goku did during their battle." Throughout the history of DBZ, there have been no such cases of this technique being used in such a manner, which would lead to reasonable doubt that he can at all, much in the way that we only see Saiyans in their Oozaru forms as being, for the most part, relatively equal in size. We can see from Logical Master's sources, that once Piccolo increased his mass, the fight was only complicated for PICCOLO, not Goku. This technique ultimately proved to be a failure, and Piccolo consequently reverted to normal size. It's also no surprise that this technique is never seen again due to the potential hazards it poses towards its user. My opponent also proposes a scenario in which Piccolo uses the multiform technique and "Special Beam Cannon" technique, which he claims could catch #17 off guard; however, it is NEVER demonstrated in the manga that Piccolo even can utilize the multi-form technique AT ALL, and is therefore considered FILLER, and should therefore be discredited.

The case for bluffs
-------------------------
My opponent is in agreement that #17 and Piccolo were stated to have even power, no arguments there. But my opponent also states that Piccolo was a more skilled fighter because of certain of certain comments Piccolo addressed to #17 during the fight. Piccolo states the following "You're pretty fast. But you don't punch very hard". My opponent clearly hasn't speculated about the value of bluffing and verbal provocation. There are times in the history of Dragonball Z when a character has used such tactics to gain a psychological edge, ESPECIALLY when no attribute advantage is apparent. It shouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to understand the effect a well placed insult might have on your enemy (whether warranted or unwarranted) to throw them off balance and gain the upper hand. Let's now consider that concept by observing #17's punch to Piccolo's stomach. When you look at the strike, you can clearly see the imprint of #17's FIST protruding through Piccolo's BACK; the power is clearly demonstrated by the depth of penetration to Piccolo's body. Piccolo also keels over, astonishingly... Piccolo's statement is admissible, because we can see clearly that #17's strikes are VERY effective. While we are on the subject, most of Piccolo's attacks failed (either blocked, evaded, or countered), and the ones that actually connected, are a cry far from the observable effect #17's strikes had on Piccolo! Therefore, my opponents assertions of Piccolo having an advantage through skill are unproven. #17 is unfazed by Piccolo's remarks, and #17 continues to pick his opponent apart with swift, stern attacks.

A skill beyond design
--------------------------
My opponent also states "17 is easy to distract as we saw earlier on in the battle when the namekian Z warrior had nearly ensnared him in the technique which is colloquially referred to as the 'Hell Zone grenade'". (Let's remember that Dr. Gero studied the Z fighters techniques, observed their power, and implemented this technical research into the creation of his Artificial Humans.) As far as my opponent stating that "#17 is easy to distract", this is simply false. As soon as the energy bullets were airborne and surrounding #17, he directed them to its designated target; this was a very swift measure, however #17 still managed an effective barrier defense. Quite a defensive feat for an attack not in the data bank!... My opponents argument asserts that "If Piccolo were to mount another assault which relied on 17's lowered guard, he would likely be successfully killing him with a devastating ki attack.", however, this testimony completely turns a blind eye to Piccolo's low success rate of inflicting damage, along with the fact that Piccolo is the one receiving the most hits, draining his energy even more.

The hourglass of fatigue
--------------------------------
My opponents statement that having eternal energy would " bear little to no meaning in terms of the outcome of that fight", should be met with certain scrutiny. If #17's opponent shows no evidence of superiority (rather the opposite), possessing limitless energy would prove to be a very CRUCIAL attribute. Every move Piccolo makes has a price, and Piccolo's "Hellzone Grenade" for example, proved to be nothing more than a theatrical waste of energy, #17 suffers no such disadvantage (#17 hasn't even used an energy attack at this point). For the reasons listed above, my opponent does not demonstrate that Piccolo holds any advantage over #17, but we know for a fact that #17 has very important advantages such as eternal stamina, a higher rate than his opponent at evasion, and a higher rate of landing devastating strikes against his opponent.

In subsequent arguments, I will examine the fight, piece by piece, and further prove my arguments, however I will offer my opponent a chance to form his rebuttal, so that I may respond and additional arguments to further my case.

Sources and Explanations...

This is where the multi-form technique appeared as filler in the anime, but not in the manga (Nappa battle)...

http://www.mangafox.com...

The manga cuts directly to Goku confirming Piccolo's training in the 'Room of Spirit and Time'. In no instance was it shown in the manga that Piccolo used the multi-form technique...

http://www.mangafox.com...

In no instance did Piccolo battle Gohan before the arrival of the Saiyans using the multi-form technique....

http://www.mangafox.com...

Pre-game smack talk between Piccolo and Krillin...

http://www.mangafox.com...

#17's devastating counter attacks...

http://www.mangafox.com...
http://www.mangafox.com...

Dr. Gero's #20's testimony that technical data about the Z Senshi was used to create formidable opponents....

http://www.mangafox.com...
Logical-Master

Con

==================
RE: Technique Arguments |
==================

1)

A) The instigator attempts to argue that Piccolo's super large body technique would not be usable in this battle since the super large body technique has never been used during DBZ. However (ladies and gentleman), this is a very flawed argument as it uses reasoning which may very well be my opponent's downfall during this battle. Just because he hasn't used the technique during DBZ is not a reason for us to assume that he could not use the technique at all. This is simply nothing more than a question of writing (or better yet, plot induced stupidity [1]) . Not to mention that if I were to go by PRO's reasoning, I could say that we haven't seen Piccolo lose to a foe who was more or less superfluous to the plot at a particular point in time (which #17 was, granted that Cell had the "big bad villain status" at this point in time and #17 was merely fodder for him as we saw in the actual series), hence suggesting that there is no way Piccolo would lose (especially with being the author's favorite character and all) to #17 in battle.

B) PRO attempts to argue that Piccolo's technique poses a potential hazard to the user, but I preemptively struck down this argument in R1. The problem with the technique is becoming TOO big. This enabled Goku to travel into Piccolo's mouth, do some damage and retrieve Kami. Had Piccolo simply decreased his size a little bit, he could have continued the battle in this form as we saw no other penalty to this method.

2) Next, the instigator argues that there has never been a case where Piccolo has shown himself capable of using the multiform technique AT ALL in the actual manga. Although this is true, it doesn't lead us to the conclusion that Piccolo is incapable of doing this. Heck, if I recall correctly, it was Kam utilizing a more advanced version of this technique which enabled Piccolo to exist in the first place. Not to mention that Piccolo has shown himself as an adapt user of transmutation, given how he had managed to conjure clothing onto Gohan at several points in the series (2). He could just as easily create a temporary clone. Furthermore, we've seen Piccolo manifest additional versions of himself all the way back during Dragon Ball (3,4). Based on this latter method, he wouldn't even lose any energy when it came to conjuring a distraction needed to deal with #17 and could eliminate him at full strength.

============
FIGHTING SKILL |
===========

#1: RE: The case for bluffs

Although I agree with my opponent that there are often comments made in attempt to psychologically get to their adversaries, such was unlikely in this particular instance of commenting on the fight. When reading this comment, we must ask ourselves: Why compliment #17's speed? If Piccolo wanted to effectively get to him, the proper manner of doing this would be to insult every aspect of him. In addition, why would there be any moment of doubt in Piccolo bluffing as we saw on the panels? As we can see on the page, #17 is temporarily stunned by Piccolo's comment (bottom panel)(5) Although #17 eventually convinced himself otherwise, we did see him undermining himself. There'd be no reason do that unless there were some basis for Piccolo's assertions.

As far as #17 leaving an imprint on Piccolo's back, this is utterly meaningless once one understands the bio-makeup of
Piccolo's body. Based on him having the ability to stretch his arms as well as change his shape and size, he clearly has some similarities to Monkey D. Luffy from One Piece; his body is very elastic to a certain extent.

As for Piccolo "keeling" over, this is because #17 knocked him down. This is the obvious reaction. However, based on how easily Piccolo managed to recover and leap back into a solid stance even after such a "devastating blow", it is clear that #17's attack was hardly effective and that Piccolo's claims were made out of honesty.

Finally, in terms of most of Piccolo's attacks being blocked, evaded or countered, I beg to differ. The blows Piccolo took before he made the comment about #17 were directly after #17 stated he would not hold back any longer. Based on how the pace of the fight changed directly afterward (with #17 scarcely even managing to land any blows), Piccolo was most likely testing out his full strength (i.e. LETTING him get in some blows).

#2. RE: A skill beyond design.

PRO argues that since Dr. Gero had studied the Z fighters in advance, distracting #17 or relying on techniques would be useless. However, Piccolo obviously refined his skills during the 3 years that he trained in preparation for the Androids (years which were not included in Dr.Gero's research). This is quite likely since #17 had no idea that Piccolo was covering the battlefield with energy bullets which he had intended to use in the first place. This is indicated by him easily falling for such a trap in the first place. Furthermore, the success of the energy barrier only serves to indicate that Piccolo underestimated #17 and didn't use enough power in his numerous ki blasts (which makes sense granted that he would have to be concerned about having enough ki to take down #18 and #16 as well . . . as it's not like they are just going to sit around and do nothing if he is successful in killing #17).

Next, I'm not sure what my opponent is referring to in terms of there being a low success rate in inflicting damage. In reading the two chapters, Piccolo managed to get in many blows. The problem is that #17's stamina enables him to keep on going and that only his body was getting damaged. I've already discussed this idea of Piccolo receiving the most hits and invite PRO to argue against it.

In addition, in reading the remainder of the battle, you'll note that Piccolo matches each and everyone one of 17's blows and dodges (6 - 10)

#3. The hourglass of fatigue.

My claim has a vast basis when taking DBZ into consideration. There have been many battles won that didn't revolve around who had superior strength/stamina. Take Gohan's battle with Cell into consideration. The two were virtually equal (with Cell possibly having the advantage), yet due to Vegeta landing an attack while Cell's guard was down, this enabled Gohan to finish him off with ease (11-13). The same applies to Goku's rematch with Vegeta during the Buu saga. Although both fighters were equal, Vegeta managed to K.O him in one blow while his guard was down (14). Although not resulting in victory, another instance of this is when both trunks and goten managed to temporarily topple the fat Buu due to hitting him while his guard was down (15). Bypassing someone's guard and hitting them means a HECK OF A LOT MORE than having limitless energy. As you can see in my above contentions, I've shown that Piccolo has every ability to do this during this battle.

And that'll do it for now.

==========
SOURCES:
==========

#1. http://tvtropes.org...
#2. http://www.mangafox.com...
#3. http://www.mangafox.com...
#4. http://www.mangafox.com...
#5. http://www.mangafox.com...
#6. http://www.mangafox.com...
#7. http://www.mangafox.com...
#8. http://www.mangafox.com...
#9. http://www.mangafox.com...
#10. http://www.mangafox.com...
#11. http://www.mangafox.com...
#12. http://www.mangafox.com...
#13. http://www.mangafox.com...
#14. http://www.mangafox.com...
#15. http://www.mangafox.com...
Debate Round No. 2
HazelMystic

Pro

Note: SLBT = Super Large Body Tech

Technique Absurdity
-----------------------------

1.) Logical Master stated in the last round that Piccolo could use the SLBT against #17, and "as long as he didn't become too big and kept his guard up, 17 would be unable to take advantage of his size as Goku did during their battle." My opponent stated that Piccolo could mitigate the disadvantage of the Super Large Body Technique in the manga by not becoming "too big". I stated, "no such cases of this technique (SLBT) being used in such a manner, which would lead to reasonable doubt that he can at all". I NEVER said Piccolo couldn't use the SLBT in DBZ. What I SAID was, that there were no such instances of Piccolo using the Super Large Body Technique in the manner in which my OPPONENT DESCRIBED. There is NOT A SHRED of evidence of proof in the ENTIRE series that the technique can be used in such a way. My opponent misrepresents me here.

2.) It's not as though the SLBT is just forgotten, but rather the specific weaknesses that have previously been exploited have provided justification for the moves lack of use after Dragonball. Piccolo had a MOTIVE for reverting back to normal size. Certain techniques may be phased out of a warriors arsenal. This isn't plot stupidity, it's character intelligence.

In the last round my opponent proposed that Piccolo had access to specific techniques that would help secure his chance of victory, however, the techniques he listed are never confirmed in the manga AT ANY point.

The following techniques have never been demonstrated in use by Piccolo Junior...

1.Multi-form

2.Demon Creation

3. Instant Transmission

My opponent would argue that since King Piccolo possessed the ability of Demon generation, so would his incarnate. This assumption is flawed. Remember that Uub is the incarnation of Majin Buu, but is never shown to necessarily possess the same abilities as Majin Buu himself.

Kami is never shown to possess "Instant Transmission". Kami is shown to have the ability to travel from Earth to Snake Way as he did (and vice versa), but not Instant Transmission, which works by locking on to Ki signatures and then appearing nearby. If Kami possessed Instant Transmission (as my opponent claims), why would it have been necessary for Goku to use the Nimbus Cloud to ride to the battlefield? My readers and I both know better.

The case for bluffs continued
----------------------------------------

The fact that #17 may have been startled at Piccolo's well-timed quip, is in no means proof that it was an accurate remark. Piccolo and #17 were stated to be even by #18 and #17. #16 also calculated Piccolo's and #17's power to be even. So Piccolo's insults can be safely discarded without worry. My opponents argument goes, "why would there be any moment of doubt in Piccolo bluffing as we saw on the panels? #17 is temporarily stunned by Piccolo's comment (bottom panel)(5). There'd be no reason do that unless there were some basis for Piccolo's assertions." Operating under such an assumption is a mistake. Vegeta boasted to Frieza that he was a Super Saiyan. Frieza was shown to be stunned by this claim, does this somehow mean there was a "basis" for Vegeta's assertions? No, it doesn't. Vegeta was slaughtered.

Equal Power
------------------
We know that #17's strike are effective despite my opponents objections, based on the following

1. Observable effects of the strike (the imprint of his fist, Piccolo's facial expressions, the sound of pain, and the vibrational lines). My opponent would argue that Piccolo's body composition would make (1) irrelevant, but remember that the result of #17's punch bears a striking resemblance to the time it was used during Vegeta's fight with #18. #17 was stronger then, so the effect is greater then, but it's still notable with this fight (with the other clues)

2. This sort of punch resulted in a K.O the first time it was used against Piccolo, and the effect of the punch for the second time wasn't too far behind in terms of size. There is no arguing this, period.

A skill beyond design
------------------------------
After Piccolo merged with Kami, Piccolo's fighting style undoubtedly changed from what was detailed #17's data banks. #17 had to think for purely for himself, and he managed an effective defense regardless. #17 was not familiar with the new Piccolo's fighting style, but yet, had had higher battle statistics (see below). We can infer that #17 possessed also possessed a skill advantage for this very reason. As far as my opponents statement that Piccolo "didn't use enough power in his numerous ki blasts" Piccolo's new technique, the "Hellzone Grenade" is a whole slew of numerous, smaller, ki shots that surround and home in on a target; this takes precision and control. Remember the fight with Frieza? At one point Goku creates two energy balls underwater in an effort to ambush Frieza. This required great concentration to create the ki balls, and keep them still while he was separated from them...just imagine a new technique that involved say 27+ energy balls fired in rapid succession. Too much power would lead to a more unwieldy technique. Remember that Vegeta decreased the power of his Final Flash in order to control its trajectory better, and prevent it from hitting the earth. If #17's opponent were to charge the blasts more, that also increases the chance of a counter or an intercept, in addition to the technique becoming harder to control. It is also demonstrated in the manga Piccolo concentrates and puts full effort to take out #17 as best he can, (as #17 has agreed to fight alone). Remember that Vegeta went all out against Recoome. Piccolo did what was necessary for the Earth.

The Author's favorite?
-----------------------------

My opponent states, "#17 was, granted that Cell had the "big bad villain status" at this point in time and #17 was merely fodder for him as we saw in the actual series), hence suggesting that there is no way Piccolo would lose (especially with being the author's favorite character and all) to #17 in battle."

1.) We've seen Piccolo lose battles before, some of whom were NOT "big bads". Piccolo was nearly killed by Raditz (inferior to Vegeta and Nappa). Piccolo was killed by Nappa (inferior to Vegeta). Piccolo is also subdued by #17 upon their first meaning (the Artificial Human my opponent claimed was fodder)

2.) If my opponent wants to continue his argument that Piccolo was Toriyama's favorite character, and therefore Piccolo wouldn't have lost to #17, I can just as easily argue that the fight was interrupted due to prevent the most rational conclusion being reached: #17 winning.

3.) Let's also remember Dodoria and Zarbon weren't "big bad's" either, but Zarbon bested Vegeta on their first bout, along with Recoome defeating Vegeta.

Logical Master gave three examples of how, "there have been many battles won that didn't revolve around who had superior strength/stamina.", he also stressed the importance of catching the opponent off-guard. The examples he gave were Majin Vegita vs. Goku, SSJ2 vs. Cell, and Chibi Trunks kicking Majin Boo while he was distracted, but this does nothing to further his argument, as they are instances that don't tie in with the fight in debate.

1.) Vegeta feigned a truce with Goku, it was only after the battle of stopped (presumably), that Vegeta actually did this.

2.) Gohan won through intervention, not through his own means, such is the case of Vegeta's inevitable death by Trunks stepping in for Vegeta (by the way, Majin Buu wasn't hurt at all by Trunks' kick).

How does he affirm that Piccolo has such an advantage of catching #17 off guard? The statistics favor #17 in many regards. My opponents assertions do not prove the contrary.

The link to my statistics and closing arguments...
http://blogs.myspace.com...
Logical-Master

Con

Alright ladies and gentleman. I realize that this debate has gotten pretty murky, thus I'm going to simply stress the important issues in this closing round and provide a link refuting every detail of PRO's case elsewhere (read the 7th post in the following thread): http://www.debate.org...

CONCLUSION: WHY PRO LOSES THIS DEBATE
==============================

Having read the entire debate, there are many points which ultimately don't impact the rounds, thus I shall be providing my responses to those that do. Pay special attention to the word "IMPACT" every time it is mentioned as these are the points which individually win me this debate without question.

------> RE: Technique Absurdity

-----------------------------

SECTION A:

1) PRO continues to mount an uphill battle in stating that there are no such cases where Piccolo used his SLBT in the manner which I'm referring to. Honestly though, there's no reason to place any doubt in my explanation of Piccolo's strategy. PRO's argument is the equivalent to saying that we've never seen Piccolo without his shoes off, hence giving us reasonable doubt that he cannot take his shoes off. Here's what we do know: Piccolo has control over his bio-molecular structure. Thus, we have ample reason to believe that he can do what I've claimed him capable of. Furthermore, if you'll refer to my sources, Piccolo was doing PRECISELY just this in the start of his battle with Goku. The only reason Goku even gained the advantage was because he goaded Piccolo into becoming too large. (1)

2) PRO is once again talking about SLBT having a specific weakness, yet conveniently refrains from mentioning it. This is because the so-called "weakness" has already been summed up in my previous round and that's Piccolo becoming TOO big. We've already seen him in a state which isn't too big. Unless he means to say that Piccolo's weakness is being easily goaded into getting bigger (which is unlikely as Piccolo has long since changed in terms of pride/intelligence since Dragon Ball), he really has no argument at all here. Granted the "weakness" of the technique, Piccolo not doing this again is indeed plot induced stupidity.

----->IMPACT: As you can see from my analysis, PRO has provided us with no real reason to believe that Piccolo would be incapable of relying on this tactic or that it would even fail. Furthermore, he has not once offered a counter strategy that assumes Piccolo is successful in doing precisely what I advocate. Thus, we are to see this as a concession on PRO's part; that Piccolo would win if he could use the SLBT to the level which I specify. Even without PRO having failed to provide a response, this is most reasonable as Piccolo having the advantage in strength breaks the stalemate between himself and #17 and can allow him to rip Gero's bucket of bolts in two. Thus, you need only buy this argument to vote CON

SECTION B:

1) In attempt to prove that Piccolo cannot create extra versions of himself (or as he phrases it, "Demon creation"), PRO attempts to assert that we are in no way warranted to conclude that Piccolo JR (the reincarnation of King Piccolo) has the same abilities as King piccolo. He bases this on Uub (in spite of being the reincarnation of Majin Buu) as not having shown himself as possessing the same abilities as Buu. This is very flawed argument for two reasons

First: Goku stated that Uub did not know how to use any of his abilities. Heck, he didn't even know how to fly (2). Thus, PRO statement regarding Uub is nothing more than baseless conjecture

Second: The manner at which both Uub and Piccolo JR were incarnated as VASTLY different. King Yemna was the one to reincarnate Buu as Uub whereas Piccolo reincarnated himself directly. King Yemna reincarnated Uub as a human whereas Piccolo reincarnated himself as he has always been (a namekian). Uub had no recollection of his former self whereas Piccolo understand who he was as is former self completely.

Thus, it is rather clear that this is a weak argument and that it does not fly AT ALL. Why is it that Piccolo (reincarnated) still has perfect mastery over ki, knows transmutation (or "magic" rather), has all the memories of his former self. It's because he IS the former Piccolo. There is a reason that Kami (who can only live as long as Piccolo can) didn't die when King piccolo was killed.

2) PRO drops my alternate proposed methods of Piccolo being capable of multiforming. In R2, I explicitly stated that Kami used this technique just to create Piccolo in the first place and that Piccolo is most knowledgeable in the area of transmutation. Since PRO has dropped this, you are to agree that Piccolo has a means of multiforming in this battle regardless of whether or not you are convinced by the points made above.

In the last round my opponent proposed that Piccolo had access to specific techniques that would help secure his chance of victory, however, the techniques he listed are never confirmed in the manga AT ANY point.

3) In attempt to prove that Kami cannot use instant transmission, PRO points out that Kami didn't simply transport Goku to the battlefield during the battle with the saiyans. However, there are several things wrong with this line of reasoning. A) Kami would have been placing himself in danger had he arrived on the battlefield. Getting killed by the saiyans would have eliminated Piccolo at the same time. No need to take such a risk. B) Goku needed to get some senzu beans from Korin as he wasn't a full health. C) Kami was as drained as Piccolo and was barely clinging onto his life.

Nevertheless, let us assume that Piccolo would merely be limited to traveling to the front of Snake way when using this teleportation technique. This would be no problem at all. He could simply teleport to Snake way, power up the special beam canon (without interruption) and then teleport back to the location #17 was at while aiming from his blind spot or from an area where he'd be unable to mount any offense (like Goku did to Cell).

------->IMPACT: Note PRO's drop as it's crucial. The multiform technique WILL be successful in this battle. Also note that this is yet another example where PRO has not provided a counter strategy for #17 that assumes Piccolo would be successful in duplicating himself. This once again puts you (as the judges) in the position to vote in favor of my case merely if you agree my analysis on what Piccolo is capable of. Furthermore, this applies to the instant transmission section. As long as you are convinced that Piccolo can do it, that's all it takes for a CON vote.

BATTLES WON WITHOUT SUPERIOR STRENGTH
================================

1) It matters little how Vegeta managed to catch Goku off guard. The point I've established is that catching an opponent off guard = certain doom/ critical hit in DBZ.

2) Once again, PRO brings up irrelevant points. Gohan won through intervention; he won since Cell's guard was down and quite effectively at that. And yes, Buu wasn't hurt at all by Trunks and Goten's kick, but with regeneration on his level, why would he be? Nevertheless, the kept incapacitated him long enough for Vegeta to have Piccolo get the two to safety as well as mount one final defense against Buu.

How do I affirm that Piccolo has such an advantage of catching #17 off guard? 1) He has already done it during the battle. 2) It would be simply for him to do it if he were to create a duplicate out of sight and have it stall #17. As you can see, PRO's arguments against these key maneuvers have been insufficient.

IMPACT: PRO provides no argument against the effectiveness of off guard techniques. If you are convinced that Piccolo can catch #17 off guard, this is yet again an individual reason to vote PRO.

Thanks for the debate. Vote CON!
Debate Round No. 3
73 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by EmeraldLance 2 years ago
EmeraldLance
As a life-long fan of Dragon Ball, I'm torn. Both debates were great, and it all seems too close in my mind make a definitive choice. But if I had to choose, I'd say Piccolo has just enough of an edge to defeat 17 though it would be an incredibly close match.
Posted by crashbreaka 2 years ago
crashbreaka
Picollo demonstrated use of the multi-form technique against Nappa
Posted by crashbreaka 2 years ago
crashbreaka
Picollo demonstrated use of the multi-form technique against Nappa
Posted by manga_rocks123456789 4 years ago
manga_rocks123456789
i think that picollo would have won, with his new strenght
Posted by Logical-Master 4 years ago
Logical-Master
"If you want to discredit something that has a seal of approval by Toriyama himself, as well as the DB community at large, be my guest."

Like I said, the anime is no different man. You can't have your cake and eat it. ;)

"So, I'm moving on. It's also nice to know that those who are up on ACTUALITY (and what's deemed official) can also laugh at these arguments you've presented."

lol dude. Seriously? Take a few steps back and lighten up. This is a discussion over a simple children's fictional series full of plot holes and contrivances. I have no doubt that the DBZ community "at large" (including Toriyama himself)(basically, the majority of those interested in the series) couldn't care less about any of so-called "actuality" within these entire discussions and would at best find humor in the fact that this has been discussed here at such "lengths" in the first place or that someone was taking it serious enough to possess a sense of "frustration" or hostility.

"It certainly takes the frustration away with having to explain it to someone who clearly won't listen. "

Having to explain? lol. Again, lighten up. Taking these discussions beyond the level of recreation is unhealthy. :(

Hasta luego.
Posted by HazelMystic 4 years ago
HazelMystic
If you want to discredit something that has a seal of approval by Toriyama himself, as well as the DB community at large, be my guest. Not only are my assertions backed up, but I also know for a fact that yours are not. I've stated that my estimation is closer to the reality of DBZ for very sound reasons, and using reasons that are grounded by an official source. So, I'm moving on. It's also nice to know that those who are up on ACTUALITY (and what's deemed official) can also laugh at these arguments you've presented. It certainly takes the frustration away with having to explain it to someone who clearly won't listen. As far as I'm concerned; I am satisfied, and thus I am moving on.
Posted by Logical-Master 4 years ago
Logical-Master
"And as far as the Instantaneous Movement front...this is also why Kami didn't pick Goku up from Kaio's. It points to the reservations that Kami has as a Kami and stands to reason that it is linked to the tower itself exclusively."

Ha. That's probably right. Still, doesn't change the fact that Piccolo can use this to his advantage. Even from Kami's lookout, he ought to still be able launch a powered up attack strong enough to eliminate 17 while his guard is down. Something akin to the wide scale blast of Vegeta's final flash would do.
Posted by Logical-Master 4 years ago
Logical-Master
"
2. Even if it can be used in the way you've described, it doesn't increase the users power level. "

Again, never said it did. You can refer back to the debate as I always used the term strength. Physical strength =/= ki. I've offered sufficient evidence for this above, so I won't dwell on this section much longer. This should help in terms of additional elaboration though: http://dragonball.wikia.com...

"You've said that Akira was involved with filler like the Daizenshuu levels "

No, I said he approved of it. Like George Lucas who'll sign his name on just about every StarWar's book which is made (regardless of whether or not it contradicts hi works), Toriyama has done the same on all official DBZ related content. You don't need to be involved with something to provide approval. Furthermore, the Daizenshuu blatantly contradicts the manga. In short, it's no different than the anime.

"Also something I recently found out was that according to the daizenshuu, Warrior-type Namekians can't lay eggs, and Piccolo/Ma Junior is a Warrior-type (whereas Daimao was a Demon Clan Namekian, and the Great Elder was of the Dragon Clan). That also explains why Piccolo didn't lay an egg when Nappa killed him."

Given the fact that Kami split with King Piccolo, this would indicate that Kami could do technique as well. Since Kami can do it and PIccolo fused with him, well you can see where this is going. :)

That and Piccolo is clearly an exception to other Warrior nameks since he is still shown well capable of using magic.
Posted by Logical-Master 4 years ago
Logical-Master
"The purpose of even bringing those up was to help establish what we can already see from Piccolo vs. Goku. We can see Goku is fighting still very well"

Goku's ki was to Piccolo. This is established at the beginning of DBZ and is even established during their fight at the world tournament. You'll notice that Goku had won the fight with plenty of ki to spare, only for Piccolo to be forced to resorting to the desperate measure of playing dead and firing a ki blast through Goku's chest while his guard was down. There's a reason Piccolo had started using all of his tricks during that battle in the first place. He knew the truth. Piccolo turned giant, used Kami as a shield, blew up the ring and did many other dishonorable things because he knew he stood no chance in a fair fight.

On the other hand, #17 and Piccolo are even in power. Whereas Piccolo needed to use cheap tricks to be a match for Goku, using such tricks (increasing his strength) on an confirmed even opponent would give him the edge.

"The debate had a rule. I specified the use of the manga, and immediately you fell back on examples that appeared in the anime"

Truth be told, I wasn't aware that Piccolo had never just straight up used Tien's multiform technique in the manga. What I thought was an integral part of the story turned out to be "non-canon." Nevertheless, I played by your rules and found evidence to suggest that Piccolo can do so even by manga standards.

"the other examples were leaps of faith, and the circumstances surrounding were riddled with circumstances that could refute them: namely the fact of the problem with lack of origin."

Heheh. Where is the lack of origin in Piccolo creating his children?
Posted by Logical-Master 4 years ago
Logical-Master
"but more importantly, we are trying to decide on whether it would prove advantageous in a fight. You can deduce that Power Level and this technique do not correlate positively in such an instance, both from Toriyama's official levels and the outcomes of the fight. Power level IS strength. Piccolo conjuring up clones etc are definitely in the realm of conjecture and hence I'm calling you on them."

False. Power level is KI. DBZ makes it clear that ki can enhance physical abilities, though they are not the same. For instance, during Goku's battle with Captain Ginyu, Ginyu believes he is superior to Goku (whom he surmises has a power level of 85,000) in spite of acknowledging that Goku is even faster than him.

Piccolo conjuring up clones is by no means conjecture. You're more than free to attempt to disprove my the evidence I have offered on the subject. :)

"And what we know is that some of these techniques are non-canon, and shouldn't be part of trying to guess where it could have logically followed."

Nope, each of the techniques I referenced are canon. Your qualm is that I've simply argued that PIccolo is capable of using them in a way not precisely shown in the story (such as PIccolo growing to a height not much lesser/greater than he had during his battle with Goku or transmuting a temporary doppleganger given Piccolo's magical abilities as well as the fact that we know Kami was familiar enough with this technique to not only split himself into separate beings but place all of his evilness in the other).

"The daizenshuu levels are approved by Toriyama (merely mentioned as a reference)."

Again, no more "approved" than the anime. Like the anime, it too contradicts the manga. If I recall correctly, it was by this reasoning that fans (i.e. not Toriyama himself) decided to conclude that the anime should be disregarded during debates/discussions based on this very reasoning.
13 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by brokenboy 3 years ago
brokenboy
HazelMysticLogical-MasterTied
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Reasons for voting decision: picolos bad A$$
Vote Placed by 19146md 3 years ago
19146md
HazelMysticLogical-MasterTied
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Cliff.Stamp
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Vote Placed by WillMurray 3 years ago
WillMurray
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Vote Placed by fatdan33 3 years ago
fatdan33
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Loserboi
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Vote Placed by Kikematsu 4 years ago
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