As an Atheist, am I more good and loving than God?
Debate Rounds (3)
The reason I ask this question is because I live in Sweet Home Alabama. All my friends and people I know are of faith. My best friend is a Christian singer. I ask him what he think will become of me. He tries to put it nicely but if I don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior and I don't believe in God then I will go "down there." I sometimes hide what I believe in because I feel people will look down upon me and ridicule me and treat me differently.
The thing is, why would God send people to hell? To simply put it, even though I don't believe in God, if I were God I wouldn't send anyone to hell. No one deserves an eternity of punishment. I understand this makes people feel better about horrible real life criminals. For an all loving compassionate God, I don't know how anyone could believe in that type of God. Just because someone doesn't believe in him, he decides to send them to hell. This to me is dictator-ish. I just can not believe in something like that. It goes against my morals of good. I believe there is good in the world. But I don't do good to please God. I DO GOOD to please myself. I help people. I give money to charities. I want to have a happy family. I feel that the only reason religion has imposed this rule on people was to attract them to the faith out of fear. This was done by churches and governments. I've also experienced friends saying, "Why not just believe in him, just in case?" That makes me think they believe only out of fear. I do not believe in that type of God. If I were God, I would allow people to believe with whatever experiences they had in their lives. I would not send anyone to hell by them having the free will to think as they please. Does this make me more good than the current Christian God?
Anyway, I'd like to accept this debate and I await your first argument.
I'll start at the beginning. When God created the universe (if you don't believe He did, then humour me), he created two people, a man and a woman, and they were given a gift. The gift was called free will. Having this gift meant that these two people had a choice- they could choose God, or they could choose sin. At the time when God created the world, sin had entered because Lucifer, one of the very top angels, decided he wanted to overthrow God (kind of a dumb idea, if you ask me) and he was consequently cast out of heaven, along with the third of the heavenly host of angels whom he had convinced to fight with him. Today, they'd be known as demons/fallen angels. Don't worry, I am making a point.
Because Lucifer rebelled against God, evil entered the world, giving mankind a choice. They could choose God or they could choose Lucifer.
When a person chooses God today, they are inviting Christ into their lives to make a difference. There is a term for this, it is called being born again. It basically means that every wrong thing you've ever done is wiped off the record. Like it never happened, because Christ forgave it and it was hung on the cross with him. This shows His love. Those people are made holy and blameless in His sight.
When a person chooses Lucifer (which is not choosing God, as there is no middle ground), they are slapping God in the face and telling him that they never did a thing wrong that needs his forgiveness, and that they can make it just fine without him. It sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. They are refusing God, when all He wants is to bring them into his arms and love them and make them perfect as we we originally created to be.
Now if we look at the world today, we can see a pattern in every life. It's called cause and effect. A person makes a choice, whether good or bad, and there is a consequence depending on that choice. That's how it is with choosing God, or choosing Lucifer.
God does not send people to Hell. They are not in Hell because God didn't want them. They are there because they didn't want God. It can be a tough thing to wrap one's mind around, but look at it this way:
Our world is fallen. There are horrible things happening every where because of people making the wrong choices. There is murder, rape, theft, abuse, starvation, and more, all over the globe. This is a result of humans abusing their free will. God does not want this, but because He promised us our free will, He will not intervene. He does not lie, nor does He change, for He is constant. But people are not. Now imagine if those people, who told God they did not want His forgiveness and therefore decided they would keep on making wrong choices, imagine if they were allowed into heaven despite the fact that they did not make the choice that would change them for the better. Imagine all those people, still making wrong choices and still determined that they did not need to change, in a place that is meant to be perfect.
It would become just like Earth- fallen and corrupted.
When a person does not choose God, there is only one other option. All God wants is your heart, willing to change and willing to accept His love. He doesn't want you to try and be perfect- let Him do that part. But I assure you, God does not want a single person in Hell. But when they choose, and they don't choose Him, that is the only thing at the end of the path they have chosen.
I hope this has answered your question. I await your next article.
Most people don't know the history behind religion because it has changed countless of time throughout time. I'm not choosing Lucifer instead of God. I didn't even know who he was. I am not choosing God because I don't believe in him. I completely different reason than choosing between both. There is absolutely nothing I can do about that. God shouldn't look at it that way. That makes me think he has horrible judgement as far as the deciding factor as to who goes to hell or heaven.
HUGE POINT HERE:
For example, we are able to plant life nowadays.
If I plant a seed on the ground, it grows into a beautiful plant. I love it. But I understand it has a mental capacity to which it can not understand that I even exist and that I made it. (I am God in this example) I planted that seed in the ground and I nourished it. I can not blame nature and that plants life experience on the deciding factor of it going to plant hell. Lets say it lived a good plant life. It didn't rape any other plants, its roots did not destroy any other plants. it lived a good life. But it doesn't believe I am it's God. Why is this? Because some of us may not have the mental capacity to understand what God is. Some of us require proof before we are able to decide something like that. It is not our fault. I will not tell the plant. "I am not sending you to plant hell. You little plant are sending yourself to hell." Even though it didn't do anything bad, it lived a good life. And that is good enough for me. I love that plant and I'll accept it into my kingdoms botanical gardens. I understand that that little plant has no clue as to who Lucifer is and I will not judge it because it didn't choose me. It couldn't. Because there wasn't enough facts, knowledge presented to it or maybe it just can't understand. It may be mentally incapable to wrapping it's mind around something like that with proper proof. We can not blame nature for this. I as God would have to let it take its course.
I WOULD WANT GOD IF I KNEW HE EXISTED. BUT with the fact that I don't have enough proof I physically and mentally can't do it. If God thinks this is enough to NOT accept me into his kingdom then he is no God of mine. If God decides that I am not fit to join his kingdom even though I lived a good life and helped people, then that is the day I HAVE BECOME BETTER THAN GOD.
The question now is not why God sends people to hell BUT why he doesn't allow GOOD, HONEST people that don't believe in him due to their life experiences go to his kingdom. WHY is God not willing to let good honest people in. I wouldn't do that. Is that good or bad of me? I would let my clueless people enter my kingdom as long as they lived a good life. The simple fact that you must believe in him to gain access to heaven I think is an idea constructed by church to strengthen faith.
----As far as your record being wiped away clean once you are born again.
I completely disagree with that statement in religion. A person should be able to live with the mistakes they have made in their life. This can not be changed. Wiping them away is like never raping someone after raping them just because you accepted God in your life. This I feel is just a huge excuse church and government has used to attract people. I think it more worth while knowing what you did in the past and living with your mistakes. Knowing that they can not be undone. I feel that by relieving you of your sins you are telling the world, it's ok to make mistakes. It's not. What'll make people better is telling them that they have to do better but not telling them it's going to be ok. God absolved you of your sins. You can still live a good life after those mistakes. I do it. But I am not telling myself someone is hitting the delete button and I'm starting over.
Your statement : Now imagine if those people, who told God they did not want His forgiveness and therefore decided they would keep on making wrong choices, imagine if they were allowed into heaven despite the fact that they did not make the choice that would change them for the better. Imagine all those people, still making wrong choices and still determined that they did not need to change, in a place that is meant to be perfect.
It would become just like Earth- fallen and corrupted.
Those people you are referring to, they don't know God. At least the majority of those people don't believe in that particular God. They never have gotten the chance to ask for His forgiveness because they don't know he exists. It sounds like you are stating that people who don't believe in God are rejecting him, but there is nothing to reject in our minds. We never asked God for forgiveness because he hasn't shown himself to us. There is no proof. In India, there are over a million people who don't believe in the same god. Did they reject him? or they simply do not know of him and have no facts to support his creation. It is not a choice that we are rejecting him. It is simply we don't know enough about him from actual facts. So why would God not allow these people who have no control over this part of their lives into his heavenly gates. Some people are just crazy. I don't have specific rules as to how God may deal with these people. Shooters who randomly shoot up schools. Yes, they are bad, evil, terrible, but they MAY be completely crazy. Like literally, not right in the head. That is Gods creation. Why would he be so judgmental towards how he created the human brain. Sometimes people are just born like that. Not right in the head.
Some people in the world need God. They need some Jesus in their lives because a lot of people would not be able to work with the idea that there is nothing. Religion and God have helped so many people better their lives. And yet there's others that are still cheating on their husbands and wife's. Even believing in god. Committing violent acts only to pray at the end of the day and get their sins absolved. It works both ways. It betters the lives of some and it also gives others an excuse. But that's not what this debate is about.
As you stated God does NOT SEND anyone to hell, BUT
Why would God NOT ALLOW good people into my kingdom knowing that they have no control over what they believe and do not believe? What you believe ....that's not something you can change. Especially if it goes against your moral values. And my morality does not allow me to believe in a God like that. If God were real, lets say he is real, he would not care what you believe in as long as you live a good life. He loves you no matter what. You are his creation. The day he does not allow a person who dedicated his life to good things into heaven is the day humanity is better than God. GOD is GOD. Gods morals should be better than that. Am I bad for having my morals? Are my morals good or bad? Sure evil people may go to hell but what about those that did good and only good in their lives.
You have a garden full of plants. They are all different sizes and colours and shapes, but each one is still a plant. Now, as "God", you are responsible for the fact that they are alive, and you love them all and only want them to love you back. But the plants, as you say, do not have the mental capacity to understand you fully. However, some plants do believe in you and love you, because you love them and there is evidence in their lives that they have changed. They turn to face the sun and grow bigger and brighter and healthier. They try to tell the other plants that there is a "God" (let's say the sun is God in this analogy for convenience's sake), but many of the plants, because they cannot see the sun, being plants, decide that because there is not enough factual evidence for the existence of this sun, they will not believe.
Now on "living a good life" without God. It's impossible. I'll say it now. Impossible. Can you honestly tell me that you are perfect? Because that is the only way you can live a good life without God- if you are absolutely perfect and have never done a single thing wrong. Because if you've done even one thing wrong, that's the same as doing any number of things wrong. Logically. Just because you didn't rape or murder doesn't make you "more innocent" than someone else. You've made bad choices. Everyone has. You have not lived a good life, because you are human.
Maybe you didn't know about Satan/Lucifer/The Enemy, or whatever name you choose, before now. But now you do know, because I have told you. But God gave everyone on this planet a conscience. Why do we feel bad when we have done something wrong? That's our conscience, reminding us we get a choice and we made the wrong one.
Now perhaps you call Christianity a religion, and I suppose it's officially classified as one. But it is also a faith. Faith is a belief you have in something you cannot see or control, such as God. There is not enough physically evidence to make God's existence obvious fact because if there were, we would have no need for faith. We would not have to want God to find Him. He told us, "Seek, and you will find", because the idea is that we recognise that we need Him so we will look for Him.
You have a method of thought I have seen many times. You're an intellectual. And this causes a problem. Intellectuals often find the concept of faith difficult to grasp because it means believing in something that has not been completely proven, and proof is the only thing intellectuals have to take hold of. Without it, you feel like you have nothing to hold on to, no solid ground beneath your feet.
God has also instilled in all of us a very deep knowing, just a knowing, in our intuition, that He exists. I don't think I've ever met a person who has actually believed with all of the fibre of their being that there is no God. God has even put people in your life to tell you about Him, so that you do know He exists.
People are not clueless. There have been people who were never even told that He existed, but they knew there had to be something more, so they searched. And they found Him.
Now, for the record being wiped clean. I am not sure why this bothers you. No one can live with the mistakes they make. Have you never lain awake at night and remembered things you did wrong, and been ashamed of it even ten years later? Why do you find it so hard to believe that God is willing to forgive anything?
Because He loves us, He sent His Son to die for us, and to not only die but to suffer for hours so that every one of us, no matter what we had done, could be set free from that pain. Do you like pain? Do you like guilt? I sure don't.
What it is saying is not, "hey, you're saved now, go and do whatever you want". That is NOT WHAT CHRIST'S DEATH MEANS.
It means, "I love you, I have saved you, and now you are part of my family." And once you have truly accepted Jesus into your life, He will start to change you. You will not feel the same desire to do bad things as you once did, like maybe lying, or drinking, or taking drugs, or whatever.
No sin is more powerful than Christ. If you had seen the incredible things I've seen, you would believe. Jesus has healed people who were paralysed in wheelchairs, and doctors were left baffled. This has happened all over the world. My own father goes out to spread the Good News, and he has seen people turned around. One man who was abusive to his family is now completely changed. He and his family both are happy, and at peace, and they have a light in their lives that wasn't there before. This is not some scam set up by the government. This is real. This is God giving you life in Him, and you won't even know what hit you.
And as for the people who don't know God, so you say, they have many opportunities to choose to seek Him out. People who choose not to believe are rejecting Him, what other way is there to put it? In India, there are missionaries who are helping orphans and poor starving people. My own church is a part of this- we send money over there so they can be educated, we help build churches there so they can learn about God, and we go over there ourselves to help. I have friends who are missionaries in China, and every day there is the possibility that they could be caught and killed just for owning a Bible. But they are risking their life to share this life-saving gospel, because Christ gave His own life for us because He loves us, so why should we love any less? They are rescuing young women from prostitution and teaching them about God and His love, and giving them a chance at life.
And as for those people who are not right in the head, I know what you mean. I do not know what happens to them, but I do know that God loves them also, and that He will not send them to Hell for something they cannot control.
I've already covered the thing about sinning and forgiveness. Christians do not do bad things, then pray about it, and then do it again. God says those people are not truly repentant and have not turned around. We accept God's forgiveness into our hearts, and then let Him do His good work in us.
Again, I've covered the thing about people not knowing God and them not going to heaven.
Do not think to tell God about morals. The only reason morals exist is because of God. Also do not forget that while you have only a fraction of all the knowledge and wisdom in the universe, He has it all. No one knows more about this situation than He does. No human has only done good in their lives. You are implying that humans can be perfect by themselves. No human can.
God cares what you believe in because your beliefs decide your actions. It's a cognitive triangle: your thoughts influence your feelings, and in turn your feelings influence your behaviours, and finally your behaviours solidify your thoughts. When you change your thoughts, you change your feelings and then your behaviours. The only way to truly have a pure and good thought life is by allowing God to take the bad stuff out of your life. Then your feelings change for the better, and your behaviours follow suit.
God shows himself to us every day. Perhaps you do not see it, because you do not believe it, but I see it often. Healings, speaking in tongues, the absolute joy that comes with the freedom of not carrying guilt around anymore and knowing that you are free from sin- you don't have to do it anymore. Those things and more are proof of God's existence. Just look around you.
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