As per the Hebrew Bible, the nations are speaking in Isaiah 53:1
Debate Rounds (3)
Round 2 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 3 - Rebuttals Only
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements
I ask that whoever accepts this debate is a Christian (or sect thereof). The Hebrew Bible is in this debate is the only authoritative book to be used for this debate.
Do not start your argument on the first round.
Serious debate only.
First, I would like to explain why I requested this debate. Paul, in Romans 10, claimed that the Jewish people are speaking in Isaiah 53:1 (But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?) To understand if Jesus really fulfilled Isaiah 53, it is important to know who is speaking in Isaiah 53:1. Are the Jewish leader speaking? Is there clues in the Book of Isaiah? Should we accept Paul claims? I am not trying to have a debate on the whole Isaiah 53, but only on the first verse.
So let us start with the book of Isaiah. In context, Isaiah 53:1 has not happened yet. The righteous servant, whoever it is, has never been exalted and extolled, and never was very high (Isaiah 52:13). So Isaiah 53:1 will happen in the future. The speaker(s) of Isaiah 53:1 ask(s) an important question: "to whom has the arm of the L-rd revealed?" Somebody, or a group of people will ask this question. Looking back in the previous chapter, we see that the arm of the L-rd was revealed to the nations:
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. Isaiah 52:10
Furthermore, the verse prior to Isaiah 53:1 say "So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider."
So, we see the the Servant of the L-rd will be revealed and all the kings, who have seen the arm of the L-rd, will have nothing to say. After some silence, they will speak "Who has believed our report... "
Finally, all instanced that the arm of the L-rd was revealed was as a Judgement against the nations.
First, G-d takes Israel out of Egypt with his mighty arm and judges Egypt:
Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, H2220 and with great judgments:
With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: H2220 for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalm 136:12
Second, the arm of the L-rd was on Babylona and teh Chaldeans.
All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm H2220 shall be on the Chaldeans Isaiah 48:14
Again the people are judge.
My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms H2220 shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm H2220 shall they trust.
Here G-d redeemed Israel, his people,
Thou hast with thine arm H2220 redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.
So each time the "arm of the L-rd" is mentioned, it is for protecting Israel and judge the nations.
There is no reason whatsoever to think that the Jews would be speaking in Isaiah 53:1, in the context, only the kings of the nations would fit the description and the context of the verse.
Romans 10 supports this by saying, "But not all the Israelite's accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" https://www.biblegateway.com...
Notice that Isaiah says. It is clear that Isaiah is speaking to the Lord at this point since the beginning of the sentence begins with "Lord".
Another point we can bring from Romans 10 is the context that Paul says, "But not all the Israelite's accepted the good news. For Isaiah says...". It is obvious from the context that the Kings are not speaking and neither are the nations. Rather Isaiah is speaking to the Lord asking who believes this report? Since the Israelite's were reluctant to believe that they could be redeemed.
If this text from Isaiah 53:1 was continued from chapter 52, meaning the kings of the nations spoke we would see some form of connection, like "they say". However since we don't have this and instead we have Paul saying That Isaiah said, (kind of a he said she said ) we have no proof that anybody other than Isaiah is speaking at this point.
From all this it should be clear that Isaiah is speaking regarding the message that he prophesied from God.
Now I look forward to my opponents response.
I would like to remind my opponent that the only book that could be used in this debate is the Hebrew Scriptures. As I mentioned "he Hebrew Bible is in this debate is the only authoritative book". As Paul added "As Isaiah Say "Lord"" which are not in the original Hebrew text specifically to arrive at the conclusion he wants. Thus we should not use Paul as authoritative to prove the authority of the New Testament. That would be circular reasoning.
Let us first check the Hebrew of Isaiah 53.
מִי הֶאֱמִין לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ וּזְרֹועַ יְהוָה עַל־מִי נִגְלָֽתָה
the word לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ can be divided in three sections.
לִ (to or from, because of)
שְׁמֻעָ (HEAR or Obey) https://www.blueletterbible.org... I am not saying it is necessary wrong (as my Hebrew is really basic) to translate it the other way, but it is also a proper translation to translate it as "Hear".
תֵנוּ (to us, or we)
Who has believed what we have heard? (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
So it makes sense that the nations are speaking if they say "Who has believed what we have heard?" And even some Christian Bible translate it as such.
...so He will sprinkle many nations. Kings will shut their mouths because of Him (the servant), For they will see what had not been told them, and they will understand what they had not heard. Who has believed what we have heard? And who has the arm of the LORD been revealed to? ...
In context, with the previous verse, Kings will shut their mouths when they see the arm of the L-rd... Then the kings are speaking and ask two questions. Who has (or would have) believed what we have heard? Nobody would have believe who is the righteous servant of the L-rd. And who has the arm of the LORD been revealed to? To the nations.
Following Paul's (an my opponent) opinion. Let us see if it works...
Who has believed our report, says Isaiah and G-d? Well... The nations, who will come to know Jesus as the servant of the L-rd. And who has the arm of the LORD been revealed to? The nations again! When we previously saw that the "arm of the Lord" is always used for judgement against the nations
Well, that does not make much sense isn't it? So to make any sense, it needs to be the nations speaking. And as my opponent and all the Nations (who believe Jesus to be from G-d) will have their mouth shut, when they will discover who the righteous servant it. They will say "Who has believed that Jesus was not the righteous servant of Isaiah 53!" And they will all have their mouth shut to see who is really the servant of the L-rd... (but that, of course is another debate)
Isaiah said this according to Paul. Since all scripture is inspired by God we must accept this as the truth and accept that it is in fact Isaiah that speaks.
No let us transliterate Isaiah shall we?
Now as you can see we have at the top of the page a description of who is speaking at the time. The prophet, Isaiah.
"1 The prophet, complaining of incredulity, excuseth the scandal of the cross, 4 by the benefit of his passion, 10 and the good success thereof." http://www.qbible.com...
You know what doesn't make much sense? The first sentence of the last paragraph where your telling me I don't make sense.
As I have proved by the Hebrew and Roman Text transliterated we can clearly see who is speaking and how it all ties in.
I followed my opponents rules, however there exists an error in his round structure. So this instead is the closing round. I believe it is clear from these texts I have shown who is speaking and the context. It should be clear who your vote should go to. My name is Brian N. Johnson and this debate is now closed.
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