The Instigator
Impact94
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
Vinny12345
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Astral Projection can be Defended by the Bible

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Impact94
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/21/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,128 times Debate No: 55180
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

Impact94

Pro

Round 1 is for acceptance, Round 2 is for posting arguments, Rounds 3 and 4 will be for negative cross examinations.

Astral Projection: "the act of separating the astral body (spirit or consciousness) from the physical body and its journey into the universe."[1]

Bible: "The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by about 40 authors, in three different languages, on three different continents, and over approximately 1600 years." [2]



[1] - http://dictionary.reference.com...
[2] - http://carm.org...

Vinny12345

Con

I accept, however this is only my second debate on this site.
Debate Round No. 1
Impact94

Pro

Thank you con; I will now bring up some arguments to support my claim that astral projection can be defended by the Bible.


*Note: I will be citing verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible, as it is one of the earliest translations of the Bible.*



Background; implausibility of astral projection as a sin, and past acceptance of parapsyhological phenomena:

The goal of my contention is to provide a defense for astral projection in Biblical terms, on behalf of some people in the world who claim to have had a spiritual part of them since childhood. Anecdotally, there are people who claim they have had astral projection experiences since childhood [1], and more than that, even experiencing spontaneous astral projection since childhood [2], implying that "spontaneous astral projection" occured beyond their control. I would like to quote a biblical reference which states, "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." (1 Corinthians 10:13). What we are talking about here is potentially something can not only be beyond temptation, but for some, without active consent - something which just happens.
It would also appear that the early church had originally accepted views on parapsychological phenomenon that is harshly discouraged today in the modern church.

"In 415 A.D. St. Augustine wrote a letter to a friend named Evodius. This letter contains plain discussion of the soul, astral bodies, spirit guides, precognitive dreams, and cognition while asleep [Lucid Dreaming]! These topics seem to have been suggested previosly by Evodius. Evodius had previously written concerning a young man who had passed away but who still visited fellow priests in dreams and visions." [3]

People such as St. Augustine and Evodius would have been the kind of people in their day who would very often study and translate the bible amongst each other. Clearly, there is a historical basis for such things.

God Formed the "Heavens and the Earth", calling them "Good":

Verses I will be referencing (emphasis mine):
(a)"In the beginning God created heaven, and earth."(Genesis 1:1)
(b)"And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good...."(Genesis 1:31)
(c)"For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him."(Colossians 1:16)

It goes without question that everything in existance, according to the Bible, was created by God (c). We can deduce that, if something exists, then God must have designed it, and according to Genesis 1:31, called it "good".

Now let us assume that spiritual phenomenon in the nature of astral projection exists. If it did, then God must have designed it; for if not, then who? Satan? If so, then satan must logically have powers of creation just as much as God has; an ability which just does not make itself apparent in biblical texts. Furthermore, this would make satan the "god" of the astral realm as a whole. Not only is referring to satan as a god unto himself sacriligious, but based on Colossians 1:16, satan being the 'creator' of the astral realm is an anti-biblical contention. "For in him [God] were all things created".

"The Heavens and the Earth"

Again, I'd like to draw attention to some of the emphasis I provided in the verses above, that God created 'heaven' and earth (1), and more specifically, that 'in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.'(c). I would argue that the "visible and invisible" referenced in this verse may be an indication that God must also be the creator of these "astral realms" the people at the Monroe Institute occasionally refer to. If not, then someone else must have created them, indicating that there must also be second God; specifically, a seperate God of the astral realm. But this is biblically impossible, for the bible clearly states "For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5).

The Books of the Prophets:

In the books of the prophets, many examples of God's prophets are depicted as having what may be considered today to be lucid dreams or out of body experiences. By means of these phenomena, God provides messages to these prophets of things to come or the way things are. A few example passages may include:

Zacharias 1:7-10 "In the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month which is called Sabath, in the second year of Darius, the word of the Lord came to Zacharias the son of Barachias, the son of Addo, the prophet, saying: [8] I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees, that were in the bottom: and behind him were horses, red, speckled, and white. [9] And I said: What are these, my Lord? and the angel that spoke in me, said to me: I will shew thee what these are: [10] And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered, and said: These are they, whom the Lord hath sent to walk through the earth."


Amos 1:11-15 (implicably during a vision) "[11] And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: What seest thou, Jeremias? And I said: I see a rod watching. [12] And the Lord said to me: Thou hast seen well: for I will watch over my word to perform it. [13] And the word of the Lord came to me a second time, saying: What seest thou? I see a boiling caldron, and the face thereof from the face of the north. [14] And the Lord said to me: from the north shall an evil break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land. [15] For behold I will call together all the families of the kingdoms of the north: saith the Lord: and they shall come, and shall set every one his throne in the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and upon all the walls thereof round about, and upon all the cities of Juda..."

Daniel 7:7-10 "[7] After this I beheld in the vision of the night, and lo, a fourth beast, terrible and wonderful, and exceeding strong, it had great iron teeth, eating and breaking in pieces, and treading down the rest with its feet: and it was unlike to the other beasts which I had seen before it, and had ten horns. [8] I considered the horns, and behold another little horn sprung out of the midst of them: and three of the first horns were plucked up at the presence thereof: and behold eyes like the eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things. [9] I beheld till thrones were placed, and the Ancient of days sat: his garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like clean wool: his throne like flames of fire: the wheels of it like a burning fire. [10] A swift stream of fire issued forth from before him: thousands of thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before him: the judgment sat, and the books were opened."

These provide only a fraction of the verses documenting supernatural experiences by the prophets.

The Book of Revelation:

In the book of Revelation ('Apocalypse' in the Douay-Rheims translation), it is understood that John is seeing things in the future in the presence of a heavenly host. That's all very well and all, but, if we are to accept that John was seeing things in the future - and, in heaven - then where exactly was his body for the entirety of the experience? It cannot be said that John's experience was only a "vision" and whether or not its being a true out of body experience is debatable, for it says, and I quote:

Apocalypse (Revalation) 4:1-3 "[1] After these things I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard, as it were, of a trumpet speaking with me, said: Come up hither, and I will shew thee the things which must be done hereafter. [2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and behold there was a throne set in heaven, and upon the throne one sitting. [3] And he that sat, was to the sight like the jasper and the sardine stone; and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."

Apocalypse (Revelation) 21:10-12 "[10] And he took me up in spirit to a great and high mountain: and he shewed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,[11] having the glory of God, and the light thereof was like to a precious stone, as to the jasper stone, even as crystal. [12] And it had a wall great and high, having twelve gates, and in the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel."

The entirety of the book of Revelation seems to record a vivid image of a heavenly realm decorated with what John interpreted to be various colors and precious stones.


Recognized by Early Christians?:

Perhaps it is not so far off, then, to say that Paul himself seemed to have implied that he might have known a fellow "man in Christ" who was caught up in an out of body experience: "[1] If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed), but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [2] I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), [4] That he was caught up into paradise, and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter. [5] For such an one I will glory; but for myself I will glory nothing, but in my infirmities." (2 Corinthians 12:1-5)


[1] - http://www.astraltravelsecrets.com...
[2] - http://www.near-death.com...
[3] - "Introduction to Lucid Dreaming for Christians (Part 1)", IThinkTherefore. https://www.youtube.com...





Vinny12345

Con

Vinny12345 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Impact94

Pro

As there is nothing for me to negative cross-examine or rebut, I extend all of my previous arguments.
Vinny12345

Con

Vinny12345 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Impact94

Pro

It seems my opponent has one final round to support his/her position. I would like to thank my opponent for having the spontaneous impetus to take on my debate, regardless of whether or not he/she felt able provide any arguments in support of the con position, and much less to refute my arguments from Round 1.
Vinny12345

Con

Vinny12345 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by TheBathead 2 years ago
TheBathead
Not with me though. Your argument style is way over my head.
Posted by Impact94 2 years ago
Impact94
@TheBathead You know, I almost want to have this debate again now so that I can have a deeper discussion on the topic.
Posted by TheBathead 2 years ago
TheBathead
My bad feeling was right. Con forfeited all his rounds.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Astral Projections: If that means Out Of Body Experiences, I can get them easily meditating.
They are actually hallucinations so they should be termed Out Of Body Hallucinations.
If I am curious about something, like even a sound or a place, while I am meditating, sometimes I'm there checking out the source of the sound or at the place I was curious about.
It's all something to do with how my brain is structured, I know it is a hallucination as often my hallucinations are Wrong in detail.
Such as the time it first happened after surgery, where I hovered above my bed, watching myself grow old before my eyes and the visions are often more vivid (real) than reality.
That can be easily explained as well.
Posted by Impact94 3 years ago
Impact94
It's cool to hear that this is your second debate, Vinny12345 :)

A friendly reminder though that you do have 14 hours left to post your arguments. As someone who's had eleven debates already, I'd highly recommend that you post 'em quick before the time runs out.
Posted by Cold-Mind 3 years ago
Cold-Mind
You really need better definition. "and its journey into the universe" - seriously?
We already are in the universe, all of us.
And you need to define consciousness and spirit.
And since you said astral projection is separating "astral body" from the physical body, you need to say how were they connected in the first place.
Posted by TheBathead 3 years ago
TheBathead
I've got a bad feeling about this.
Posted by Blade-of-Truth 3 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
This is fascinating. I look forward to reading your arguments.
Posted by Impact94 3 years ago
Impact94
I'm just going to see how far I can take this
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Impact94Vinny12345Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: I think Pro's argument scared off Con: Though it is a pity, as Astral Projection as described in the Bible are really just Hallucinations, which are the work of the Human mind and not of any God. But Oh Well, I guess Pro evidently deserves the points, even though the arguments are Fallacious. These people were having visions, or normal hallucinations, not out of body hallucinations.
Vote Placed by Ajab 2 years ago
Ajab
Impact94Vinny12345Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: FF and while the case was weak at the very least I gave an argument.