Astrology is Logical and Scientific.
Debate Rounds (5)
I do not believe in Astrology. I consider it a pseudo-science. I invite my opponent to say in favour of Astrology : Why he/she thinks that Astrology is scientific, how it is scientifically done and how we can validate the claims of astrological methods of making prophecies.
If I can, I will debunk them. Otherwise, I will throw up the sponge.
bases horoscopes on the moment of birth, not the moment of conception when, in fact, one's genetic characteristics are fixed;
ignores the gravitational forces of non-solar system bodies (e.g., the pull of gravity by the obstetrician on a newborn child is about six times greater than that of Mars);
treats the various nuclear, magnetic, and gravitational forces exerted by solar system bodies (e.g., the sun, planets, moons, asteroids, comets, etc.) as if they were of the same magnitude. In reality, differences of many orders of magnitude were long ago verified by research;
ignores significant solar system bodies, e.g., Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, asteroids, comets;
fails to take into account tidal forces, also gravitational differences resulting from the irregular shape of some solar system bodies;
ignores the motion of the sun with respect to other stars and with respect to the center of the galaxy;
ignores the wobble in the earth's rotation axis, which by now has shifted the astrological sun signs by one or two constellations (making a typical Leo in reality a Gemini);
omits two constellations along the ecliptic (the "path" of the planets and other bodies in our solar system);
fails to provide conclusive evidence of a direct causal link between celestial positions or "aspects" and human personality and interactions.
Astrology works because we have freewill.
Freedom of choice is wired into the very core of what we are. 1 Human beings, especially, are the "grown ups" all life on earth. We are "adults" with fullest access to our inherent freewill. Adults are held responsible for their actions.
Astrology works because we have freewill and are therefore responsible for our actions. Yes, there is a lot of cool, far-out stuff like electromagnetic ketheric interplanetary gravitons and quantum quarks and all that interesting stuff, yeah. But, none of that is the real reason Astrology works. Astrology works because we are 100% responsible for every decision we make and every action we take.
Plain and simple.
Who holds us accountable for our choices?
The universe herself.
Why does she bother?
Because she is our "mother" and wants to help us evolve. The more selfishly we use our freewill the more she "punishes" us. The more selflessly we chose to live, the more she "rewards" us. This is a simple and effective technique which Pavlov is credited for articulating.
If you are a mother or a father you know how much work it is to take care of a child. But in a sense your work is more or less "done" after 20 years or so, right? Not so with mother nature. A soul takes lifetimes to "grow up", not years. Mother nature"s work of raising her children by helping encouraging our good choices (selfless) and discouraging our bad choices (selfish) is something which is not so mainly concerned with the very small boundary of the conscious mind in a single lifetime. It works instead in the gigantic subconscious awareness of the soul, which spans countless lifetimes.
We often call this whole shebang "the law of Karma." But it is not really a law so much as it is love. It is the love of our mother " the universe herself " which causes her to make the enormous effort to help us "grow up" and evolve.
Astrology works because we have a "mother" looking after us.
Does this comfort you? It really should. You should know that you are safe in the lap of your mother. Even though she may be spanking you " her intention is always loving and kind.
How do the signs and planets fit into this picture?
Our sacred mother, the Universe, is in constant complex motion to deliver deserved punishments and rewards to the countless living beings who inhabit her. In that sense she is like the most sophisticated and elaborate clockwork. The gears and wheels of her inner workings are mysterious, quantum things " but the planets and stars that we can see with our naked eyes in the sky are exactly like hands on the face of the clock that is the universe.
Astrology is the science of "telling time."
When you were born, the universe " all the stars and planets we can see with our eyes in the sky " were in an absolutely unique configuration, like hands on the face of an enormous and complex clock. The universe moved those stars and planets into that configuration as a result of the inner movements of her hidden clockwork, in constant motion to bring you the specific rewards and lessons you deserve and require in your current lifetime to help you evolve as a spiritual being.
This is the real reason why the position of the planets and stars at the time of your birth tells what "destiny" awaits you in your life.
Why has mother nature bothered to create a face for her clockwork?
The give you a chance to evolve faster and more joyfully.
She created a face for the clockwork and taught humanity in very ancient times how to read her clock. Why, so that you can better understand yourself, and the meaning and purpose of the events in your life. And what is the purpose of that? So that you evolve more joyfully and effectively towards your ultimate enlightenment.
Those who she blesses continue to understand the science of astrology. There are very few, but such persons can help humanity evolve at fantastically accelerated rates. So, I would say, it is your amazing opportunity to be one of the rare humans who can avail yourself of the divine blessing of astrology. Perhaps even a few of you are destined to yourself become true astrologers?!
Yes, the planets and stars had a unique position when I was born. And it changed afterwards. But that can be calculated using astronomy, not astrology. With the advancement of society, we are now able to know whether an asteroid would hit Earth or not, whether a big tornado can come or not. But that is already a different science. That's meteorology and astronomy. What does Astrology say here?
Mother Nature controls our lives. Well, I use 'mother nature' as a metaphor and not to describe it as a conscious-being. Atoms control us, of course. But how can Astrology predict the future with that? How can it make bizarre claims about future?
A lot of people who practice astrology and believe in it seem to do so without knowing why it works. They simply intuit that it is effective, and use it as a practical way to view their life. As open minded people it should be our duty to actually analyze topics such as astrology and actually look to see if there is any validity. It is my personal opinion that astrology may very well be accurate. Of course there are tabloid forms of it that are less effective, but on the whole it seems to me that people long ago, people who were concerned with their very survival, would not have used it unless they had found it to be pragmatically helpful. The art of astrology is very ancient and dates back to the Ancient Egyptians and Sumerians and perhaps before. Of course the Mayan prophecies talked about about the moving of the Earth through grand cycles in a similar way to the astrological 'ages' in western astrology as well as the Yugas in Hindu lore.
The idea that heavenly bodies may effect us in some way is not at all far fetched. The most obvious example would be the moon, whose gravity pulls the tides, which has a very visible effect on the earth and humans. It is said that before artificial light was introduced, women would menstruate with the cycles of the moon, and I have heard statistics that violent crimes rise with the full moon.
This is where we get the old folk tales of werewolves and the like, it is also where we get the term 'lunacy' from the latin word for the moon, Luna.
The earth is a planet interlocked with other planets, and as with any interlocking system, what happens to part effects the whole. This could connect to the Holographic Universe Theory in some way, with the outline of the planets being a macrocosm representing the microcosm of life on Earth.There could even be a kind of electrical connection between planets, the earth and the sun are connected electrically, and the earth and other planets may be connected in a similar way.
The idea that certain characteristics may be influenced through the planets is also interesting. In 'L'Influence des Astres' published by Michel Gauquelin he put forth the idea that those born when Mars was in the sky showed an increased tendency to be sports champions.
I would like it if people put forward theories on what they think is the basis of astrology, scientific or otherwise. I am intrigued by the subject and would like to hear your views on it.
2. The moon and menstruation connection is a misconception. (Refer to "What's the link between the moon and menstruation?" - Cecil Adams) You can refer to 'The Skeptic Dictionary' for more info.
3. Correlation proves nothing. Increase of crimes during the full moon (if it really occurs) does not prove that the moon is the cause. It will be a silly mistake to link the two without any evidence or logic. Suppose that I had a fever and drank 2 glasses of wine. Now, if I come round, there is no way to relate the 'wine' for my cure. That would far-fetched.
Prove the speculation with scientific reference.
4. Of course! The celestial bodies have different kind of forces. But, how can that determine our future? Yes, they can, if you say that they determine whether Earth will collide with other objects or not. In that case, I come at one with you.
But that is physical, chemical and biological conditions altogether that determines whether we are going to do. And how can something like 'astrology' predict that? I am not talking about coincidences. Why is Astrology science, if it has no mechanism that resembles any scientific outlook?
In ancient times, Astrology was used to predict the birth of children. It was also used by the Chinese to know what"s in store for babies when they grow up. Astrology was also used as the basis for determining the character traits of children and their future.
Practitioners of astrology were respected and honored among the Chaldeans, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and Arabs. Astrology became popular in Europe during the ancient time
Based on the stars, astrologers could determine the fate that awaits the children when they grow up; either they were born to have a good life or they were doomed to suffer.
Even now, Astrology is still part of human life and many people especially in Asia believe in this art. Compatibilities in human beings are based on the planets and stars with emphasis on the dates of birth. This art has continuously propagated due some occurrences in the past which were attributed to its power of divination.
Many believers have witnessed events in their lives which became a reality out of astrological prediction. Events were predicted out of symbols and images with corresponding meanings provided by astrologers. This was combined with palm reading and the use of tarot cards for precision in readings.
Astrology deals with the effect of forces in the universe toward the human life on earth. Records of history show that there is a great influence of the stars and planets on the life of human beings.
Astrology does not require anyone to believe or not. It is a tool that can help you to interpret the symbols in your own chart of life which can give deep insights into your life purpose and life lessons including your needs, spiritual, emotional, mental, social, and physical.
One of the most popular and commonly used applications of astrology is natal astrology. By using a natal chart, an astrologer can tell you the beginning of your life and what lies ahead.
In choosing the most appropriate time for establishing a new business, or starting a trip, astrology made a major part. It is advisable to find good dates for events like weddings, filing of law suits, etc.
Even in politics, Astrology also plays an important role. Many politicians consult astrologers when is the best time to launch their political career and when to lie low. Even people who intend to take a certified examination are inclined to take the advice of astrologers. An analysis on the movements of the planets and their position influence the entire populations, by countries, cities or localities, eclipses, and full moons.
The application of astrology has also something to do with problems of health, mainly as a diagnostic gauge when confronted with symptoms of diseases.
In dealing with astrology, one has to use his deep analysis of facts and events on a realistic point of view. It is improper for a person to blame it on the stars or karma whenever he fails in his life. He must treat astrology as a guide to improve his life and not totally depend on its outcome.
2. Popularity of Astrology does not make it a science. Majority of people believed that Earth was the the centre of Sun's orbit, before the real scientific facts were introduced.
3. "Based on the stars, astrologers could determine the fate " - Where is the evidence that the mechanism of Astrology works? How can it asserted so easily? If you predict something, and that comes true, does that mean you have a special power? Well, if you claim that you have, then you have to present the evidence too. The burden of proof is on you.
4. "Many believers have witnessed events in their lives which became a reality out of astrological prediction" . Does that prove that Astrology is scientific? No, it does not. What you gave is just an example of ANECDOTE, it is clearly EMPIRICAL. This cannot be regarded as evidence for the scientific base of Astrology. If it is, anyhow, then alien abduction-claims will have plenty of evidences! And, also, if a wide range of people claim something, are you prepared to accept that? If you are not, then why do you do it in case of Astrology?
Science deals in evidence, observation, and very importantly, logic. I cannot find that in your argument. There are plenty of anecdotes, instead.
5. You have said a lot of things after that. But all are assertions without evidence. You are giving your opinion. That's right. But what are you giving as reference or tangible evidence to back your argument? Nothing at all!
What can I say about all these? Nothing at all! I mean, I have told what I had to say, already.
Hers my aguman
Astrology is the belief that the time of year one is born affects things like personality. Here is a supposed "personality profile" for the present astrological-sign.
We dismiss it as absurd: How would such a random thing as birthdate affect anything? (There is some idea it has to with how stars line up, which strikes us as laughable).
I will not argue for astrology. But I will point out: One"s birthdate is not "random" in the sense of lottery numbers or "coin flips", but is almost always ~9-months after conception.
Two things I recently read suggest that, in some animals, conditions of conception matter, a lot, for the character of the new creature.
1.) In alligators, temperature of the nest determines the sex of offspring. (A nest above 90-F will produce a male, any cooler will produce a female).
2.) In certain butterflies in the tropics, the nature of the ornate patterns they develop on their wings are determined by "larval rearing temperature", not genetics as such. [link].
Consider: Is it possible that the temperature of the surroundings of the human womb at conception, and during pregnancy, could affect the child in ways similar to what astrology claims, as seen in these other creatures? Yes, we are warm-blooded. But is it really so impossible?
Another possibility: Perhaps a spring conception is ideal for the human condition, which gave rise to European notions that spring and love go hand in hand. Are people born in December, January, February [9-months after "Spring"] superior to the rest of us?)
Even if any of this is true, it would not line up with astrology"s hard line on significance of birthdates (implicitly) everywhere: After all, some places have no seasons, some places have "wet" vs. "dry" seasons, others have wild-temp-swings in the year, others milder swings, and southern-hemisphere-ites have opposite seasons as northerners.
Anyway, modern people are not exposed to the elements very much, anymore. So is astrology "over"?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by kingcripple 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro tried to give up the debate. only thing i could vote on
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