The Instigator
brontoraptor
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
squonk
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Atheism is an irrational stance on God

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/18/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 591 times Debate No: 93857
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (14)
Votes (0)

 

brontoraptor

Pro

Atheism is not a rational stance on God.

Atheism in this debate will mean "claiming a god does not exist".

God in this debate will mean "Creator of our reality".
squonk

Con

Sure, I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
brontoraptor

Pro

"Perception is reality."

--

Atheism is far inferior to Christianity in meeting the "Hierarchy of Psychological Needs", if it even meets them at all.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

The Hierarchy of Needs-

-friendship
-love
-security
-physical needs

--

*According to the hierarchy of psychological needs:
"If these "deficiency needs" are not met, with the exception of the most fundamental (physiological) need, there may not be a physical indication, but the individual will feel anxious and tense."

*(1 Peter 5:6-7)
"Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you," casting all your ANXIETIES on him, because he cares for you."

Matthew 6:31-32 Therefore DO NOT BE ANXIOUS, saying, "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we drink?" or "What shall we wear?" For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.

--

FRIENDSHIP-

(John 15:15)
"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you FRIENDS."

LOVE-

(John 13:34-35) "
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

SECURITY-

(John 10:28-29)
"and I give eternal life to them, and they will not perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

(Deuteronomy 33:27)
"The eternal God is a dwelling place, And underneath are the everlasting arms of protection."

PHYSICAL NEEDS-

(Matthew 10:29-31)
"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

---

Richard Dawkins, Atheist, Author of "The God Delusion"-

"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."
-Dawkins

www.goodreads.com/quotes/22201-the-total-amount-of-suffering-per-year-in-the-natural

--

NEGATIVE BELIEFS-

The number one component to depression is negative beliefs and negative thinking.

http://reset.me...

As Christianity is in decline...

http://www.pewforum.org...

Suicide is climbing up, up, up.

http://www.cnn.com...

http://m.huffpost.com...

http://www.philly.com...

http://www.newsweek.com...

--

I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity may be a bulwark against something worse."
-Richard Dawkins

http://www.breitbart.com...

http://m.christianpost.com...

So what has Atheism done? Go militant against Christianity. It has bitten the hand that allowed it to exist. In Islamic countries Atheists are simply...killed.

http://mobile.reuters.com...

http://www.frontpagemag.com...

It's the equivalent of getting rid of your neighbor who you disagree with, just to have him replaced by someone who hates you and now burns your house down and kills your family. The logic is completely irrational.

This is a fair assessment because?

Liberals went crazy when Muslims were denied access to Europe and all after militantly trying to destroy Christianity. Millions upon millions of Islamic asylum seekers came flooding into Europe. They were even welcomed with food, water, and signs saying "welcome"!

What happened?

Many refugees rejected the food and water for "not being halal", booing and hissing. Europe began facing what was called a "migration crisis". Suddenly Sweden was labeled as the new "Rape Capital of the World", Germany underwent the "rape jihad" of nearly 2,000 German women in one night, and European countries started trying to round up asylum seekers to deport them in mass.

The point?

Most people want to believe. If you push out Christianity, you will simply replace it with something else, and it won't be Atheism. If not Christianity, do you dare theorize what the "something else" might be?

http://www.gallup.com...

Perhaps this?

Islamic Imoms and clerics are telling Muslims in Europe and the West to outbreed, interbreed, and conquer the West by producing Muslim babies in mass.

http://www.barenakedislam.com...

(Short video)

http://youtu.be...

And this is where Atheism became completely irrational. It has claimed hostility towards Christian Conservativism, and literally made a wide opened door for a religion that hangs homosexuals in the streets, is anti feminism, covers women up, doesn't allow women to drive or work without a male present or given permission, punishes adultery by death, has no "freedom of religion, executes death penalties to Atheists, and has strict punishment for drug or alcohol use even in moderacy. That's Militant Atheism 101. It's pure genius.
squonk

Con

According to the OED, the word ‘rational' means “based on or in accordance with reason or logic.” I will argue that it is hardly unreasonable (or illogical) to claim that a deity does not exist.


It is true that Christianity offers people solace, friendship, love, security, and more. The same can be said for many (if not all) religions. The same can be said for all sorts of ludicrous beliefs. Just because it’s emotionally gratifying to believe in X does not make it rational to believe in X.

My opponent seems to think that atheists are hostile towards Christians, and friendly towards Muslims. This isn’t true. Many atheists are critical of Islam. For example, Sam Harris:

“While I do not mean to single out the doctrine of Islam for special abuse, there is no question that, at this point in history, it represents a unique danger to all of us, Muslim and non-Muslim alike…insofar as a person is observant of the doctrine of Islam — that is, insofar as he really believes it — he will pose a problem for us. Indeed, it has grown rather obvious that the liabilities of the Muslim faith are by no means confined to the beliefs of Muslims “extremists.” The response of the Muslim world to the events of September 11, 2001, leaves no doubt that a significant number of human beings in the twenty-first century believe in the possibility of martyrdom….To see that our problem is with Islam itself, and not merely with “terrorism,” we need only ask ourselves why Muslim terrorists do what they do…The answer to this question is obvious…The answer is that men like bin Laden actually believe what they say they believe. They believe in the literal truth of the Koran…” [1]

Christopher Hitchens called Islam “the most depraved” of all religions. “The most toxic form that religion takes is the Islamic form… The whole idea of wanting to end up with Sharia with a religion-governed state — a state of religious law — and the best means of getting there is Jihad, Holy War, that Muslims have a special right to feel aggrieved enough to demand this is absolute obscene wickedness and I think their religion is nonsense, in its entirety.” [2]

If you’re looking at atheists from the western world, you’ll probably hear more about Christianity than you will about Islam because Christianity is the dominant religion in the west.

But let’s cut to the chase. Is it irrational to claim that a deity doesn’t exist, because Christianity is emotionally gratifying and certain liberals (not necessarily atheists) have been too tolerant of Islam?

Definitely not.

[1] Sam Harris, “The End of Faith”

Debate Round No. 2
brontoraptor

Pro

"I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity may be a bulwark against something worse."
-Richard Dawkins

This was a moment of candor for Dawkins, the world's leading militant atheist. Most of his pupils don't seem to get the message. If Christisanity falls, Atheists are coming with us. Instead of helping Christians, they became militant towards their own guardian. They decided to bite the hand that fed them. The only religious place being openly Atheist is safe, is in a Christian nation. Religion is on the incline, but Christianity in the West is on the decline, and the New Atheist Movement is heavily responsible for that. What the New Atheist Movement is unintentionally doing is moving itself forward but moving its spiritual counterparts backwards. As Christianity declines, and religion inclines, Atheism is making religion, which is getting bigger, less Christian. Islam is congenitally hostile to Atheism and is quickly becoming the largest religion on Earth. It is growing so rapidly that Europe is referred to in many articles as "Eurabia".

The concept relates to the fact that Europeans do not even average 2 children per household, thus not replacing themselves, and getting smaller. This while Muslim men can take on multiple partners and wives and have an unimaginable amount of offspring. By demographic rates, it is basic mathematics that even if Europe haulted all Islamic migration into the continent, they will in the next few decades be overcome by Muslims and become the minority in their own countries. If Islam is the majority, Atheism will become the target of an anti-fitna caliphate. Atheists would be so far out-manned and going against a united religious brotherhood that is unstoppable. If Christianity disappears, Atheism in the West disappears by default.

Mike Huckabee recently urged Christians to stay out of the military, saying they are no longer welcome.

"Why would they want to be in a military that would be openly hostile and not just simply bring some scorn to their faith, but would punish them for it?" Huckabee said in a recent interview.

www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/april/atheists-outnumber-southern-baptists-in-us-military.html

--

In a military of 1.4 million in personel, 8,000 are Atheists. This tells you who is defending this country. With Christianity, one has a divine reason to fight for God and country. With Atheism there is simply the biological desire to survive. If every Christian on Earth magically vanished, Atheism would die in the West. It would be heavily outnumbered and have a massive and highly devout religious enemy who is congenitally hostile towards them with no Christians to protect the Atheists. Holy jihad would break loose to genocide all remaining Atheists in the West. It would be the Orlando and Paris massacre on steroids.

--

Enter the mind of the Atheist. Sweden and Denmark are 2 of the most highly Atheist countries on Earth. They were also the 2 greatest welcomers of Islam in the West. They don't just have problems. They are in danger of not even existing as races soon. They face exctinction as they are getting smaller by means of low birth rates while the immigrants(Muslims) are outbreeding them and tripling and quadrupling. They will soon be minorities in their own countries.

Sweden is now the "rape capital of Europe" and Denmark is right there with them. Nonmuslim women are coloring their hair black, wearing hijabs, and not going out at night or without a man to go unnoticed by Islamic immigrants.

Logic 101:
Sweden gave Christianity the boot. The tradeoff is that now its Atheist women are wearing hijabs.

http://www.salon.com...

http://mobile.wnd.com...#!

http://speisa.com...

http://dailycaller.com...

http://www.barenakedislam.com...

https://www.rt.com...

http://www.independent.co.uk...

http://www.d-intl.com...

--

Con:
"Christianity is the dominant religion in the west."

Probably not for long. We have a two sided battle. Islam on the right genociding Christianity physically, and Atheism on the left genociding Christianity spiritually.

--

Con:
"It is true that Christianity offers people solace, friendship, love, security, and more."

Thus, to be militant against Christianity is irrational. Why?

1)It is not rational to be militant and wish to eliminate something that helps people.

2)If Christ was right, the stakes are high in regards to reward. To complacently disregard it without taking as deep a look as is possible is madness per Pascal's Wager and is completely irrational. It's the equivalent of rejecting water when thirsty because the offerer might not actually have any water.

Example:
I offer a thirsty Atheist a drink of water. They say "No. The water might not exist. I am thirsty and no other water is around, but just in case you have no water, I reject any offered water from you to feel 'intellectual'. I am fine being completely dehydrated, and I know you offered me water, but I must decline because I am too affixed on whether you actually have water or not, thus I will not risk it."
squonk

Con

My opponent accuses atheists of "spiritual genocide" and complains about "militant" atheism. What does militant mean? It means, "Combative and aggressive in support of a political or social cause, and typically favoring extreme, violent, or confrontational methods."

Personally, I am close friends with many Christians. Many of these people have devoted themselves and built their lives on the Christian faith. From time to time, we discuss religion. We disagree. I explain the reasons why I don't believe what they believe, and vice-versa. Is this "militant atheism" on my part? Am I guilty of "spiritual genocide" because I'm openly critical of the Christian faith?

In Round #1, my opponent defined atheism as "claiming a god [Creator of our reality] does not exist." Whether or not atheism is "irrational" is not a matter of how emotionally gratifying you find it to believe that God exists. Christianity may very well make you feel good. It may make you feel like your life is more purposeful. But, snorting cocaine will also make you feel really good. Taking LSD can make you feel like you've discovered the meaning of life. Is it "irrational" to say no to cocaine and LSD?

Debate Round No. 3
brontoraptor

Pro

"Taking LSD can make you feel like you've discovered the meaning of life. Is it "irrational" to say no to cocaine and LSD?"

No. Thus Con cedes this point to bronto.

--

Con:
"What does militant mean?"

Milli- (symbol m) is a unit prefix in the metric system denoting a factor of one thousandth .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...-

Tant-
"The part of a womans body that is between the anus and the vagina."

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tant

Con tried to define it, but did not source his definition. By my sourced definition, it looks like Con is wrong.

--

Con:
"Personally, I am close friends with many Christians."

Citation needed. We will need to see pictures of these friends, and proof they are Christians. We also need proof that squonk ever had "said" discussions with them. If not, Squonk drops this point. He could also be a Nazi, but we have no proof.

--

Con:
"Is this "militant atheism" on my part? Am I guilty of "spiritual genocide" because I'm openly critical of the Christian faith?"

Yes. Squonk is a militant Atheist by his own manufactured definition seeing he is "openly critical of the Christian faith" according to himself.

--

Con:
"snorting cocaine will also make you feel really good."

The only way Squonk could know this is if Squonk snorts cocaine. Since Squonk snorts cocaine his reputation is hurt, especially when in debate. It is possible that Squonk did this debate while high on LSD. If so, it is possible that he is currently incapable of abstract thought.

--

Con:
"Christianity may very well make you feel good."

Con openly admits Christianity "can make you feel good", yet rejects it. This is irrational. If Con rejects an ideology that would be helpful to his mental health, Con is guilty of OCD by "Mental Contamination".

www.ocduk.org/types-ocd

Meaning? Con has purposefully chosen to reject the good psychologically and adhere to the bad. Instead of:

1)Eternal life
2)God loves you
3)Eternity in bliss and happiness

Con has consciously chosen:

The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."
-Richard Dawkins, head of New Atheism Movement

https://www.goodreads.com...

This is actually a mental disorder called negative self talk. Con is in a negative feedback loop. IThis is the Achilles Heel of good psychological health.

http://psychcentral.com...

http://serc.carleton.edu...

When I say "God loves me", Con says, "No He doesn't."

When I say, "I have a friend in Jesus", Con says, "No I don't."

When I say, "I'm going to have eternal life," Con says, "I'm just going to die."

This is a psychologically destructive state of mind. It is also a good way to push people away, ending in nonsatisfactory relationships, discontent with life, and a feeling of hopelesness and pointlessness.

http://www.marcandangel.com...

"7 things negative people will do to you. They will...
1. Demean your value
2. Destroy your image
3. Drive you crazy
4. Dispose your dreams
5. Discredit your imagination
6. Deframe your abilities
7. Disbelieve your opinions

Stay away from negative people!"

-Israelmore Ayivor
"7 Habits of Negative People"

Notice what Con does.

Con:
"Many of these people have devoted themselves and built their lives on the Christian faith. From time to time, we discuss religion. We disagree. I explain the reasons why I don't believe what they believe."

I reiterate:

They will...
1. Demean your value
Atheism-There is no purpose. God doesn't love you.
2. Destroy your image
Atheism-There is no meaning.
3. Drive you crazy
Atheism-I don't agree with you. Let me tell you why!
4. Dispose your dreams
Atheism-There is no eternal life. You will not see your loved ones again.
5. Discredit your imagination
Atheism-There is no Heaven. There is no loving God.
6. Deframe your abilities
Atheism-You believe in God. You are uninformed.
7. Disbelieve your opinions

Hmmmm....

Squonk?
squonk

Con

brontoraptor is trying to argue that “atheism is an irrational stance on God.” In Round 1, he defines god as “the creator of our reality” and atheism as “claiming that a god doesn’t exist.”

In Round 2, brontoraptor talks about all the psychological benefits of religious belief; how it’s great for meeting the “Hierarchy of Psychological Needs.” Guess what? Reality doesn’t give a sh*t about your psychological needs.
Richard Dawkins says, “The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” If that’s TRUE, then atheism is perfectly rational.


This debate is about whether it is rational to claim that a God doesn’t exist. brontoraptor hasn’t given us a single compelling reason to think atheism is irrational.


Christianity makes you feel better, therefore atheism is irrational? Wrong. Bad argument.
Atheists are hostile towards Christians and friendly towards Muslims, therefore atheism is irrational? The premise isn’t true. Even if it was true, how is it therefore irrational to believe (or claim) that a god doesn’t exist? Bad argument.
Atheists are “negative people” therefore atheism is irrational? Wrong on multiple levels. Bad argument.
brontoraptor has offered us nothing but a hodgepodge of irrelevancies.
On a side note, atheism is not a “psychologically destructive state of mind.” But reality may be disappointing to those who are used to believing in fanciful stories to make themselves feel good…i.e., Christians.
Debate Round No. 4
brontoraptor

Pro

Squonk:
"In Round 2, brontoraptor talks about all the psychological benefits of religious belief."

And Squonk admitted it was true, yet consciously chooses Atheism and its lack of "good psychology".

--

Squonk-
"If that"s TRUE, then atheism is perfectly rational."

Notice the word "if". Creationists could be right, have a belief with good effects, be helpful in hard times, and fulfilling, yet Squonk rejects it because his current belief "might be right", despite this manifesting a negative, defeated attitude that hasn't helped his quality of life. It's rational to search out the better variable in the equation as opposed to the inferior.

--

Squonk:
"atheism is not a "psychologically destructive state of mind."

SQUONK QUOTES:

Squonk:
"Reality doesn"t give a sh*t about your psychological needs."

This is an example of a psychologically negative and defeated state of mind. This is why Squonk lashed out.

In this debate, Squonk threatened me with violence.

http://www.debate.org...

"I'll punch you square in the face."
-Squonk

--

Squonk-
"Atheists are "negative people" therefore atheism is irrational?"

According to psychology, yes. Negative loops are considered a mental disorder. Based on psychology, people need to be focused on more positive things or risk heart attack, stroke, high blood pressure, anxiety, depression, and/or suicidal thoughts. This is why religious people tend to lead happier, healthier, longer, more fulfilled lives.

Squonk openly admits to adhering, and on purpose, to a belief system that he himself says makes for a "disappointing reality". This is self defeating mindset and irrational considering there are other alternatives and mindsets available to Squonk.

https://www.amazon.com...

http://m.huffpost.com...

https://www.amazon.com...

https://www.psychologytoday.com...

https://www.templetonpress.org...

--

Squonk-
"brontoraptor hasn"t given us a single compelling reason to think atheism is irrational."

I can say Squonk has a furry tail. It doesn't make it true.

--

Excerpt from Psychology article-

-"Negative thinking is the cornerstone of an anxiety disorder. Many people with anxiety have severe problems with anxious and irrational thinking - thoughts that many know are irrational, and yet they struggle to convince themselves of the more logical and reasoned response."

"In many ways, anxiety is specifically a problem with irrational thoughts. Anxiety is, in many ways, a fear of irrational things. At its heart, those that deal with anxiety are often trying to control and contain severe negative thoughts that can have a drastic impact on their overall quality of life."

http://www.calmclinic.com...

--

Atheism will forsake you when you need help the most-

Excerpt of article in NY Times-
(Speaking of Christopher Hitchens, author of "God is Not Great")

"As Mr. Taunton drove, Mr. Hitchens read aloud from the Gospel of John and mulled over the precise reason Jesus wept at the death of Lazarus. "Where is grace in the Old Testament?" Hitchens asked at one point, in Mr. Taunton"s telling. "I see it in the New Testament, but God seems different in the Old Testament," Mr. Hitchens observed, leading to a discussion of God"s covenant with Abraham."

"Based principally on these conversations, Mr. Taunton concluded that Mr. Hitchens was seeking " and that he was, at least, open to " the possibility that Christianity was true. Perhaps, Mr. Taunton writes, Mr. Hitchens "used his position as a journalist as a kind of professional cover for a very personal inquiry" into the faith."

mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/14/us/christopher-hitchens-was-shaky-in-his-atheism-new-book-suggests.html
squonk

Con

This whole debate is a joke.
Debate Round No. 5
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Torvus 10 months ago
Torvus
What would be the topic/question of the debate?
Posted by Torvus 10 months ago
Torvus
Sure but I'm not home now give me ~1 hour.
Posted by brontoraptor 10 months ago
brontoraptor
Debate me Torvus.
Posted by brontoraptor 10 months ago
brontoraptor
That's a pretty broad view kind of like Atheism.
Posted by Torvus 10 months ago
Torvus
Christianity.
Posted by brontoraptor 10 months ago
brontoraptor
You said we (Christians) have a worldview. Tell us what it is.
Posted by Torvus 10 months ago
Torvus
"Our" world view? Do you mean "your"?
Posted by brontoraptor 10 months ago
brontoraptor
@Torvus

Okay give us our worldview.
Posted by brontoraptor 10 months ago
brontoraptor
Or an Atheist with no belief, purpose, or meaning with nothing to spout or stand on.
Posted by brontoraptor 10 months ago
brontoraptor
Atheism is a worldview. Otherwise Atheists wouldn't have churches, pass out pamphlets, go door to door, or tithe to Atheist organizations.
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