The Instigator
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
medv4380
Pro (for)
Winning
78 Points

Atheism says there is no God, therefore it is not possible to win Pascal's Wager.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 22 votes the winner is...
medv4380
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/24/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 9,620 times Debate No: 59468
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (356)
Votes (22)

 

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

I would like an atheist to argue that it is possible to win Pascal's Wager and remain an atheist at the same time, but it seems to me that an atheist would not argue this way as it allows for the possibility that God is there and atheism excludes that possibility..
A non-atheist can argue this debate against my position. Please give a sample argument in the comments before I allow you to accept this challenge. If you need a dictionary to define words or if you need a web page link to define or to understand Pascal's Wager, please do not ask to accept this challenge.

You must agree to use NO outside sources for this debate. By accepting this debate, you must agree that no outside sources will be referenced, and you must state in your opening argument that you will not use or refer to any outside references. If voters or observers need dictionary definitions or a web page explaining Pascal's Wager, they can find that stuff easily without our help.
medv4380

Pro

I accept the terms.

I am personally Agnostic, but Atheism is often conflated with Agnosticism that it is trivial enough for me to argue the Atheist position.

I'll agree not to reference anything with a direct link. There should be no need link to a well known argument, and anything I have to bring up should be common knowledge. No points will be attributable to sources because of this stipulation.

I will argue that no God exists, and an Atheist can win Pascal's Wager, and that some Theists may lose more than just the finite lose of some earthly pleasure as Pascal assumed.
Debate Round No. 1
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Thank you, Medv, for accepting this challenge and honoring my requests for decorum in this debate. I hope I can gain a tie in all votes relating to good conduct, as your are displaying excellent conduct from the start.

I have to wonder how you will argue this as you stated: "I will argue that no God exists, and an Atheist can win Pascal's Wager, and that some Theists may lose more than just the finite lose of some earthly pleasure as Pascal assumed."

Theists winning or losing in Pascal's Wager would be a different debate. This debate is about the impossibility of even being able to play Pascal's Wager in order to win it if there is no God to pay off on the Wager. A person who says "there is no God" has already excluded himself from playing Pascal's Wager. An atheist would have to stop being an atheist and at least become an agnostic to play Pascal's Wager in hope of pleasing or appeasing God to gain eternal life or entrance to heaven.

Over to you.
medv4380

Pro

In Pascal's Wager what you are wagering is your behavior. Abstain from what is considered sin, and live as if God did exist.

However, the wager varies widely. For Catholic Priests, Shakers, and others that wager is celibacy. This is the biggest bet you could make with your life to gain favor with a God that may, or may not exist.

The Atheist bet is simple. Every chip is placed against God. For an Atheist, the closest to immortality is having children that are raised with the same values well enough for them to do the same. With that you at least have the chance at a kind of immortality though your children passing down your genes, and values. If God doesn't exist the Atheist can win, and if God does exist the Atheist can still have a partial victory though their children.

It would be best to bet as if you're going to Hell anyways, and bet like an Atheist since that has two ways to win.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

If an atheist places a chip against God, the the atheist is saying God is there to place a chip against and is no longer an atheist. An atheist has nobody to argue against, an atheist asserts there is no God so there is nothing to wager about. An atheist cannot win Pascal's Wager because the atheist says there is no God. In the end, the atheist according to their beliefs, loses everything they ever had and everything they ever did is lost from them and they take nothing with them when their time is over. If they can't take it with them when they leave, they didn't win anything.........they lost it all.

Ideas or feelings of immortality an atheist may have stocked in descendants are not the immortality of the atheist. The atheist is mortal, and loses everything in the end and can take nothing with him believing there is no God to pay off Pascal's Wager. It is not possible for an atheist to win Pascal's Wager.

TY 4 a decent debate, Medv, not conceding but you will probably win.
medv4380

Pro

Placing a wager against an outcome doesn't imply that you even believe that outcome is possible. The Atheist just believes that the Theist has presented a suckers bet, and doesn't realize it. If someone were to present you a bet regarding what gender you are doesn't imply that the opposite of what you bet is possible if you place your bet. You just know what the outcome of that bet will be with absolute certainty.

As long as the Atheist has children, and has passed down their knowledge they never really leave. They've lost nothing, and as long as their lineage remains they've gained a semblance of immortality.

In the end winning, and losing in Pascal's Wager is a perspective issue. How you define winning, and how you define losing is all subjective, and in the eye of the beholder. The Theist will never truly understand why the Atheist sees clear victory where the Theist sees only loss, and vice versa.

It is probably best not to wager on God existence, but rather discover it.
Debate Round No. 3
356 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by CookieMonster9 2 years ago
CookieMonster9
LMGIG, do u want people to join god in fear that they will go to hell because if you do you are doing a very good job at it. I know that I have made sins and I have repented and token of sacrament and that makes your sins go away. And what you do is tell people that you don't like that they are going to die in hell, its not rocket science. God didn't put us on this planet to go to hell, he died for us so now if we repent with a open heart we can be forgiven and not go to hell, and about the rude thing it is true that you can say whatever you want, but it is very rude to, I am not hurt I think that you should stop thinking that all of us don't believe in god because I do and probably some other people commenting on this page believe in god too. I do, so don't say that I don't believe in god.
Posted by YamaVonKarma 2 years ago
YamaVonKarma
@medv I've seen games of the Sims with more intelligent programming.
Posted by medv4380 2 years ago
medv4380
@LMGiG Incorrect, at the risk of talking to a bot, I'll clarify. You're failing the Turing test because you can't construct a single post, and are just spamming multiple posts when one would work. You're a bot that scans over a post and looks to see if any of your preformed responses will fit. You then play madlibs, and make your post. If multiple forms match a given response your bot is incapable of performing a simple concatenation, and simply makes multiple posts.

You're no different then the bot pretending to be a 15 year old native Spanish speaker who is only just learning English. That masks the logic errors to the audience so that they might mistake it for being human since it's errors have a plausible excuse.

You're just the bot that's the elderly religious nut. You tie everything to a single topic, and are using it to mask the fact that a lot of what you're doing is just preformed madlibs. Religion aside, you're just a bot.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Oh yeah, Med, I forgot antoher kind of hobby I have. I like the concept of "a warrior poet". We are in a battle for souls between God and Satan. I put in my time as a fighter and would not be here if God did not put war in my bones when the battle was too much for me. I don't care to talk about those things too much, but nobody bullies me around. I may show a flash of temper when people think they can bully me around. I do not get along with people who are belligerent and boastful with no shame for their sin. I now know that the battle is the Lord's, and He has secured the victory for me. I am more than a conqueror through Him who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Med, For your information,
I'm a good typer, very well read, and have studied apologetics extensively in college and as a hobby, and studied psychology fairly extensively through hundreds of books on the subject and some Psychology classes.. Other hobbies are physics, science, astronomy, health and nutrition. I keep up with the latest trends and discoveries in these areas well enough to be able to discuss them.

What I really like is the art of framing words to convey meaning. And I love Truth, and I hate evil. The fear of the Lord is to hate evil. The first evil I hate is the evil in me which is the same as in you, my sin nature and it's tendency to self-satisfaction, self-glorification, self-exulting, pride that emboldens me to disregard God's holy law which He gave for our protection because He loves us. So I take sides with God agaisnt my sin and I thank Him for not dealing with me , even now, according to my sins, because I know i do not deserve to breath or kick up dust on the face of His earth and I deserve to burn in Hell. I know my sins are forgiven, and I am justifed in God's sight because His justice is satisfied to have paid with my sins with His own blood, taking my place in death and in His resurrection giving me His place in eternal life and sharing all of the blessings of His heaven with me. I know where I am going when my time in this body of death is finiished, and I want to show as many people I possibly can that they can have eternal life.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Med, maybe you think my posts are constructed in a non-human fashion because the things I am saying are in line with the Word of God and the things of God are spiritually discerned. You are fighting against God, not a machine.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Cookie, try to pay attention, read the whole post here, don't take one little part you don't like and try to trhow that back at me because your feelings are hurt. It is not rude to tell the truth. If you are not aved, you are lost and dying and on your way to Hell. I won't stop saying it. I care enough about you to tell you of the danger you are in. If you do not want to hear it, don't get into it with me and don't read my posts. The people who are commenting and being addressed are being rude to me and offensive to God and they are going to lose the last of God's patience for them before long if they don't turn around and draw near to God instead of fighting against Him and propelling themselves away from Him into the fire of Hell.

People need God to be saved from Hell because they are sinners. God loves them so much He died for them when they were still sinners againt God. God's love does not cacncell His righteiusness and he is not righteous if He does not punish sinners. Hell fire will not make a sinner stop being a sinner. You can be reborn as a new creation, a child of God, by recieving Jesus Christ as your Saviour. He will give you a new heart from His Spirit, a new life in His resurrection, eternal life, and when His times are fulfilled, your mortal body also will be resurrected sinless like His body, He took your sin so it could be burried forever and you can be free of it and fit for Heaven by Jesus Christ our Lord. There is no life without Him, only death.......if Jesus Himself is not in you giving you eternal life, you are dead in your sins adn all you have is eternal death..........and death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, this is the second death.
Posted by CookieMonster9 2 years ago
CookieMonster9
LMGIG, what you are doing is being very rude by saying that people are going to die in hell. People shouldn't go to god because they are scared of going to hell, they should because they love him and want to learn the gospel. If u want people to believe you shouldn't act like a important person and tell people that they are going to die in hell, you are being as rude as everyone else.
Posted by medv4380 2 years ago
medv4380
@Saska, please don't talk to the bot. LMGiG is just a broken machine at the moment. No human being would construct posts in the manner he is. He's currently failing the Turing Test that he was designed to game. There's probably a reason person who uses it from time to time, but in all he's just a bot.
Posted by Saska 2 years ago
Saska
What a load of BS... And you can't condense what you say into one post, you have to spread it out over five annoying bursts of BS. What is wrong with you?
22 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
LifeMeansGodIsGoodmedv4380Tied
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Vote Placed by Manastacious 2 years ago
Manastacious
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Vote Placed by TheSquirrel 2 years ago
TheSquirrel
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Reasons for voting decision: An atheist would agree god exists AS A CONCEPT upon which to place his wager. This does not admit god exists. Silly debate. Pro wins.
Vote Placed by birdlandmemories 2 years ago
birdlandmemories
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Vote Placed by YamaVonKarma 2 years ago
YamaVonKarma
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Reasons for voting decision: "If an atheist places a chip against God, the the atheist is saying God is there to place a chip against and is no longer an atheist " Con won with this statement.
Vote Placed by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 2 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
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Reasons for voting decision: I have to agree with Pro as you do not have to believe in something to take a bet. Its like Pro said essentially Pascals Wagers is a sucker bet for an atheists. Actually, I don't believe this premise of the proposition can make sense logically. It would have been nice for Pro to show this logic, however that was not done. As such I have no other choice than to vote Pro.
Vote Placed by ArcTImes 2 years ago
ArcTImes
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Vote Placed by gt4o2007 2 years ago
gt4o2007
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro truly did deliver the most convincing arguments by also providing examples that would show the wager in a different context and also showing how the wager is not necessarily just used for the existence of god but also for daily life occurrences.
Vote Placed by Charliecdubs 2 years ago
Charliecdubs
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Vote Placed by NiamC 2 years ago
NiamC
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