The Instigator
KingDebater
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
makhdoom5
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

Atheism vs Islam

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
makhdoom5
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/3/2013 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,917 times Debate No: 30902
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (38)
Votes (5)

 

KingDebater

Pro

Resolution: It is more reasonable to be an Atheist than a Muslim.

Structure
Round 1 - Acceptance
Round 2 - Arguments
Round 3/4/5 - Arguments and Rebuttals

The burden of proof is shared.
makhdoom5

Con

i am accepting.
but i wanted to make it clear.
1 no spelling and grammar jargon.
2 the voting would be only for arguments and evidence. all outer sourced evidences must be read. and also be replied, if necessary.
3 No philosophy eg. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)
4 i will use Quranic verses without philosophy or any Hades ( saying of our prophet saww)
5 you must also do not use philosophy or mathematics ( only if relevant like infinity).
6 As you are atheist so what atheist means or who are they you must also explain. so i do explain Muslim. no accusation with out evidence.
7 the most relevant is science and history. which should be presented from both sides. and all contribution from atheist and Muslims also need to be consider to the practical knowledge or science.
8 the final and important the debate must be in series. like not only one debate but series of debate to come to some conclusion.
9 No slag and disrespect to our believes. ( ALLAH swat and prophet MUHAMMAD SAWW) or Qur'an.
Debate Round No. 1
KingDebater

Pro

I'm not sure as to what you mean about 3 or 5. I do not agree to 4. Arguments only. I also want to add the rule that all arguments must be in the form of syllogisms.

#1: KingDebater's argument from desire and reasonable Non-belief
(P1) Every living thing does what it wants to all the time.
(P2) God is a living thing.
(P3) God wants people to believe in him, so he is willing to do whatever it takes to get people to believe in him.
(P4) God is omniscient, so he knows what it takes to get people to believe in him.
(P5) God is omnipotent, so he is able to do what it takes for people to believe in him.
(P6) Atheists exist.
(C) Therefore, a God that is omnipotent, omniscient and wants people to believe in him does not exist.

#2: The argument from incoherence

(P1) There are three attributes of existents which concern us particularly, these being:
A. Primary Attributes - The basic nature a particular thing is composed of. What a thing is, specifically, that it may do particular things or affect those around it in a particular way. The following two types of attributes provided below can only be applied to a thing if they can be related to an existent’s primary attribute and the primary attribute is positively identified.
B. Secondary Attributes - Character traits or abilities a particular thing may enact or possess. examples: being generous, kind, powerful, wise.
C. Relational Attributes - What we associate with the character. For example, in the case of President Obama, the fact that he is the President of the United States is an example of a relational attribute.
(P2) B as well as C are dependent upon and must be related to an existent’s A in order to be considered meaningful.
(P3) The term “God” lacks a positively identified A.
(P4) Because of this, the term “God” holds no justified A, B, or C. (From 2)
(P5) However, an attribute-less term (a term lacking A, B, and C) is meaningless.
(P6) Therefore, the term “God” is meaningless; (From 3, 4, 5)
(C) Therefore, the god-concept is invalid.


When someone says to you, "God exists", how do you normally respond? For most atheists, the answer is simply "prove it." However, this is a bit premature. Before we can get into whether or not God exists, we must first know what a God is. Indeed, many intellectuals have discussed and debated the subject as to what God is throughout history. The fact remains that from its original form, the ANC has stood as one of the most significant threats to the Christian/Theist worldview.

For example, consider the following dialogue[1]:

Mr. Jones: “An unie exists.”

Mr. White: “Prove it.”

Mr. Jones: “It has rained for three consecutive days—that is my proof.”

If this exchange seems less than satisfactory, much of the blame lies with Mr. White: his demand for proof was premature. Mr. Jones has not specified what an “unie” is; until and unless he does so, “unie” is nothing but a meaningless sound, and Mr. Jones is uttering nonsense. As W. T. Blackstone puts it:

Until the content of a belief is made clear, the appeal to accept the belief on faithis beside the point, for one would not know what one has accepted. The request forthe meaning of a religious belief is logically prior to the question of accepting that belief on faith or to the question of whether that belief constitutes knowledge.”

Conclusion

Until my opponent specifies what a God is, the god-concept is invalid and “god” is just an utterly meaningless sound.

The following argument is tied in nicely with the last. Theists have attempted to provide us with a list of what God is. According to the 1968 National Catholic Almanac, God is[2]:

[A]lmighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, ineffable, infinite, invisible, just, loving, merciful, most high, most wise, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, patient, perfect, provident, supreme, true.

As you noticed, these answer the secondary attribute, but fail to answer the primary attribute. Moreover, and more important, the above definition is incoherent. If God is incomprehensible and ineffable, how can the other attributes of God be known if he can neither be understood nor described?

  1. Anything with contradictory attributes cannot exist.
  2. God has contradictory attributes
  3. Therefore, God cannot exist.

Sources
[
1] Smith, G. “Atheism: The Case Against God”
[2] 1968 National Catholic Almanac, edited by Felician A. Foy, O. F. M. (Paterson: St. Anthony’s Guild, 1968), p. 360.

makhdoom5

Con

(P1) Every living thing does what it wants to all the time.

This is not correct.
1 I want to become king but I could not. I want to live forever I could not. I want to become alive after death I could not until he wants.
2 We don't do all the time what we want. Like easing your self.( pie and poop) if you don't do you will end up in hospital .
3 The sex desire is not controllable (we cant stop it) it is becasue of hormones.
The statement from a article.
Sex seems to be more than a hormonal discharge and some short moments of pure pleasure.
http://news.softpedia.com...

etc.

(P2) God is a living thing.
This is not correct. Depend on the intention. There are many definitions of living thing.
http://www.biology-online.org...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
there is diversity.
So i will assume. The thing existence do not need to be living. There are non living things also there.
Well we cant put the ALLAH into the living and non living category.
The reason is below as the energy make non living thing to become alive. And ALLAH is just like energy. All the energy of this universe is possessed by him.
http://www.milleprime.com.sg...
http://www.milleprime.com.sg...

See both characteristic are related to ALLAH as well as not.
Like the non living thing do not die. And living thing can respond to changes.
All the negative or limitation of both living and non living thing is removed than becomes ALLAH or GOD.

(P3) God wants people to believe in him, so he is willing to do whatever it takes to get people to believe in him.
This is not correct.
The person who don't believe in GOD is talking about what GOD wants. This is strange.
ALLAH gave you free will and gave you many ways to find him. But still to believe him unseen.
As we whatever the technology we get we would not be allowed to go beyond the first sky.
This is not the blue one. The blue one is not even sky. Its layer of ozone. Which is colorless. And give blue color when the ultraviolet rays strikes to it.
You cant see the layer in the night.
You know from the examples and knowledge he is there. But you are not allowed to see him.
How could you. The explanation is below.
You cant see at sun. How could ALLAH. More is in the Quranic section.

(P4) God is omniscient, so he knows what it takes to get people to believe in him.
This is not correct. As the above is not correct. He don't want you to believe by force. Its your own will. Believe him or not. He says he will punish you at the day of judgement.
He is omnipotent ( which means capable of knowing any thing). But he want every body to believe him unseen. And is a test. He do not influence our life until we go beyond the limits of normal person's believe. So he made rules which he call it (nature or fitrat). We must obey them. If you become sick go get medicine. Knowing every thing does not mean you force peoples to believe him. Even he wants peoples to believe him unseen. But he want to putt them into hell who don't follow him but devil. Which is after the death and than resurrection. Which is not the subject of this world or debate.
(P5)
(P6)
(C)
all are not correct. And proved to be wrong. This is our GOD. This is what he wants. You cant assume what he wants. Go and get to know what he wants.

This is from QURAN.
Sahih International: Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things.
Chapter (24) sūrat l-nūr (The Light) verse 35
http://corpus.quran.com...
other translation are in the above link.
Explanation.
1 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.
Which means he is the energy source in the whole universe. All form of energies are derived from him .
Which means the energies we have. All energies in this world are from the matter.
And the fundamental particle of matter is atom. And the fundamental particles of atoms are. Electrons and protons and neutrons.
We know that the electron revolve around the nucleus of atom.
Just like Bohr model of atom was wrong. As he said the atom revolve around the nucleus and continuously loses its energy. And finally fall in the nucleus.
There is lot but will be discussed in other rounds.

2 The glass as if it were a pearly [white] star
He is comparing the most shining, big, powerful, the most glorious star. Which means the most strongest rays it would be emitting. We cant see at sun the weakest start of the universe. How could we see the the strongest one.
All other parts of the verse would be explain in later rounds.
There is not much space in this round.

He is all powerful he is giving his example like light.

We know light is energy. And energy has power
Power (physics), the rate at which work is performed or energy is converted
http://en.wikipedia.org...

And light exist in the world.
But we know there are so many kinds of lights.
The normal lights exists in this world need some source. But ALLAH said. whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire.

this light is different than other lights.
As we already know. The normal lights here in this world are. Weak energy to high energy.
About light and universe i have done half other debate. I am going to put as a source as there are also authentic evidence attached with that debate.
http://www.debate.org...

Means light ignited even not get energy from any source.

This energy also proves (devil, fire creature and angles). We conclude it from the saying of prophet saww.
http://www.shvoong.com...
see the above link.
Scientifically proved. The devil and angles.
If you still don't believe. Use night goggle. Which can detect infrared rays. And search for devil.
Meanwhile use any lens which can detect ultra violet rays and see angles.
And you don't need to believe but accept that they exist. But after watching them. What will happen to you. I must not say.
the the most powerful rays are gamma rays.
Gamma-rays are detected by observing the effects they have on matter .
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

See we can detect them directly. But the effect show they are there. Same is for X-rays weaker than gamma-rays.
They are called X-rays. Science put X behind any thing which the don't understand. Than the thing comes our. Like X-file, X-case and X-rays.
Now a days the hypothesis of Higgs or God particles are in action. The hypothesis is derived from the mathematical calculation. And the machine is made with the help of 80 countries. They are going to do the experiments on them and than try to prove it.
Well than they will try to study the dark matter. Now they don't know what is it. But in Quran it is mention what is it for. Why not you go and ask help from fire creature than waiting such a huge amount of money. Ask them how they get beaten by those Comets and Asteroids and the smoke as dark matter is thrown on them.
last thing i will deal later is the light can carry information.

Ontology of Quranic Concepts
http://corpus.quran.com...

http://corpus.quran.com...

combustion.
CH4 + 2 O2 → CO2 + 2 H2O + energy

http://en.wikipedia.org...

light

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The history of Quran.
https://www.youtube.com...

https://www.youtube.com...
Debate Round No. 2
KingDebater

Pro

Con touches my first argument, misses my second argument completely, and then starts rambling on about what the Qu'ran says.

KingDebater's argument from desire and reasonable Non-belief
Con's main objection to this argument is that Allah wouldn't force anyone to believe in him. There are lots of people that die never being a Muslim in their life. Allah knows what people are going to be muslims and which people are not going to be muslims (by choice). Couldn't Allah just make lots of people that would be Muslim by choice?

His rejection to the first premise is kind of pathetic. He knows perefectly what I mean, but he just takes what I said word for word. Hopefully this version of my first premise won't cause confusion:
P1. Every living thing tries to do what it wants all the time.
Con gave three examples where you do not do what you want all the time.
1 I want to become king but I could not. I want to live forever I could not. I want to become alive after death I could not until he wants.
2 We don't do all the time what we want. Like easing your self.( pie and poop) if you don't do you will end up in hospital .
3 The sex desire is not controllable (we cant stop it) it is becasue of hormones.
1. Read the first bit of this paragraph.
2. Read the first bit of this paragraph.
3. In that case, the person then wants to have sex or whatever his sexual desire causes him/her to want to do.

Next, his rejections to my second premise. I suppose that it's my fault for not establishing my definition of living and non-living. What I mean is really anything that can do something and not need any other thing to make it do that. Every plant, for example, needs the sun and water to survive. If we water a non-plant, it will not grow in the way a plant does. A chair cannot do anything as it is not a living thing. Chairs never move. Chairs are unable to think.
Allah, however, can do things. He can create and destroy things. I hope you now know what I mean by living and non-living.

The argument from incoherence
This argument remains untouched.

Makhdoom5's arguments
I can't comprehend anything. The spelling is horrible, the grammar is horrible and the presentation is horrible. He provided sources, but I doubt a Muslim's assertions prove anything. If I missed anything significant, then please clearly let me know.

Conclusion
-Makhdoom5 has left my second argument untouched.
-Makhdoom5 needs to improve his spelling, grammar and presentation. One tip I'd give is to not write like this,:

Potatoes are
yummy and everyone who
gays are tricky. bears
poo like braggers.

and start writing like this:

Potatoes are yummy and everyone who gays are tricky. Bears poo like braggers.


makhdoom5

Con

There were very few mistakes there. I don't think the opponent should care about. A lot of part was purely understandable.
From the previous argument i am going to correct.
As he said the atom( this not not atom but electron i wanted to say) revolve around the nucleus and continuously loses its energy. And finally fall in the nucleus.

There are some thing you cant understand.
I am not suppose to teach you science here. Just like you cant teach me perfect English.
You are suppose to be know of these thing.
You thought i will come up with your already tackled ideas. You was wrong.
I already told you i will use science and history.
No philosophy.
Why you challenged me if you don't know about these things. Those you know may get idea what is am saying.
I put the rule which said no spell and grammar jargon.

2# argument.
(P1)
A. Primary Attributes:
i have talked about his existence a lot.
He is there on seventh sky. And the end of first sky is dark matter.
Human did not reach up to the dark matter. They just see the behavior of rays which they through on dark matter. And found the rays deviating. But the telescope cant see it.
So we must go to him to see him as we cont go beyond the dark matter. As the comet and asteroids or dark matter destroy any equipment which try to pass them.
Than how can we reach the seventh sky.
But still I gave you example above. Energy in any thing is part of ALLAH. So can you explain what is energy.
The answer is the ability of any body to do work.
But you cant define energy as materiel being. Physics.
More further they will say as energy is the packet of photons. Chemistry.
Still they say about all visible and detectable energies but not undetectable. Which they only know that is present from its effect on other body.
Which already mentioned.
This is the answer for the following. Both composition and effects.
"The basic nature a particular thing is composed of. What a thing is, specifically, that it may do particular things or affect those around it in a particular way."
(P2)
B as well as C are dependent upon and must be related to an existent"s A
As A is proved than all other too.
I finished my last argument from the statement.
The light carry information.
See all lives are dependent on light=THE ALLAH (as said above in Quran)
the debate is atheist vs Islam.
I must use my primary source to understand ALLAH. Which is Quran. And 100% relevant.
My opponent must not reject it.

So,
the light carry information which goes into the lens of our eye and deliver there.
And through this light ALLAH know every thing.
His light is present every where but cant be seen which see very thing and is part of it.
But the visible light or the light which we can understand is also from him on which we live. And if he takes back the quantum energy from electron or remove positive energy from proton. Than the electron will get out from the shell. And the shielding effect will vanish. And the whole atom will destroy. Just like Bohr model, in which the electron was suppose to get into the nucleus. Because the proton was losing its positive energy but only electron. So the proton had more attraction on electron and ending up in merger and the destruction of atom.
And if this happened the matter will loose the gravitation and so will lift up in air. It will only happen when only the stone loses the energy but not the world or universe. But if the whole universe loses the energy than the whole will merge or diverge. Depend on from whom ALLAH has taken the energy back. The electron or proton.
Same is for us. If he take all energy back we will die as the heat is energy we need heat all the time. Heat is our life and lack of heat is death.
Which come form the weakest star of the universe and which is sun.

B. Secondary Attributes

same as above.

C. Relational Attributes

same as above.

Evidence other than Quran. (what ALLAH says about your knowledge and source)
AL-Qur'an:
chapter 31:
Alif"L"m"M"m [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur'"n, and none but All"h (Alone) knows their meanings.]. (1) These are Verses of the Wise Book (the Qur'"n). (2) A guide and a mercy for the Muhsin"n (good"doers).[] (3) Those who perform As"Sal"t (Iqamat"as- Sal"t) and give Zak"t and they have faith in the Hereafter with certainty. (4) Such are on guidance from their Lord, and such are the successful. (5) And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e.music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of All"h without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of All"h, or the Verses of the Qur'"n) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).[] (6) And when Our Verses (of the Qur'"n) are recited to such a one, he turns away in pride[], as if he heard them not," as if there were deafness in his ear. So announce to him a painful torment (7) Verily, those who believe (in Isl"mic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, for them are Gardens of Delight (Paradise). (8) To abide therein. It is a Promise of All"h in truth. And He is the All"Mighty, the All"Wise. (9) He has created the heavens without any pillars, that you see and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you. And He has scattered therein moving (living) creatures of all kinds. And We send down water (rain) from the sky, and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein.

Conclusion.

The knowledge is only for wise who think and understand whiteout any personal ill desire.
Who come up with positive attitude toward any thing.
There is clear evidence above for those who know.
Above verses are clear example how peoples behave when see the truth.
And argument in last round from opponent confirms it.
ALLAH is the light of heaven and earth. ALLAH is here and every where. go and ask from light. indeed light not only talks but show you the whole world.
don't ask when light talk. you might be becoming so much scare when light talks. (use head)

conclusion from ALLAH:

Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see, (17) Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not. (18) Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear of death, Allah encompasseth the disbelievers. (in His guidence) (19) The lightning almost snatcheth away their sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things. (20) O mankind! worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
Debate Round No. 3
KingDebater

Pro

KingDebater forfeited this round.
makhdoom5

Con

what i am suppose to do know.
how can i now complete the whole series on this topic.
indeed i will do it with other guys.
its was just the beginning.

Islam is the best.
be a Muslim and show the Muslims are good peoples.
Islam is the best.
Debate Round No. 4
KingDebater

Pro

KingDebater forfeited this round.
makhdoom5

Con

First of all
My opponent disapproved only 3,4 and 5 clause.
All other were accepted, including spelling and grammar clause.
The syllogism clause was also taken under consideration by me.
still in the conclusion the opponent remain complaining about spell and grammar.
but i personally did not found any problem where there was little problem i am correcting in this round.
you can see in correction how minor was the problems. but using capital with initial i do not put that.
one more thing is burden of proof must be shared. i rebutted all is presumption but what about mines. he never rebutted and not evn tried.
he never come up with rebuttul other wise i would be refutting his rebuttal.
correcrions
1

See we cant detect them directly ( not can).
2
Than the thing comes out. (not our).
3
ask help from fire creature than waisting. ( not waiting).

3rd round.
1
So we must go to him to see him as we can't go beyond the dark matter ( its can't).
2
Because the proton was not losing its positive energy but only electron. ( not was missing).

Conclusion
-Makhdoom5 has left my second argument untouched.
-Makhdoom5 needs to improve his spelling, grammar and presentation. One tip I'd give is to not write like this,:


the above is the conclusion of my opponent.
In conclusion not refuting not rebutting.

but what he was talking about my argument.
He provided sources, but I doubt a Muslim's assertions prove anything. If I missed anything significant, then please clearly let me know.



i think he missed every thing and knowing is knowledge. he need a lot of knowledge of science.
he is doubtfull which means he did not understand a bit.
i wrote very short and precise sentences. which i did with the intention so that i might not end up in grammer mistakes.

It seems very clear that it was not languastic problem but opponent was not having the knowledge of science.

conclusion.
i think he might have foud ALLAH. i think so he deleted his account. and left the whole debate with little insult of my language skills. which i dont mind.
but i pray for him may ALLAH show him right path. and all of us too.
i will do all other parts with other guys. but not now after a long break.
my next topic would be evolution.
may be this topic i will do with any time.
its important. we are not monkey blessed.

Debate Round No. 5
38 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
JazakAllah brother I will pray for that inshallah Ameen, and you are right we are all students and are learning everyday Alhumdulillah
Posted by makhdoom5 3 years ago
makhdoom5
jazak ALLAH brother in sha ALLAH. ALLAH will help u too.
just pray to ALLAH to guide u me and every one in this world ameen.
we all are students and will remain students.
even u teach still u learn.
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
MashaAllah makhdoom5 you are very smart, MashaAllah, pray for me that someday I have as much knowledge as you someday inshallah, and may Allah (swat) always bless you and may you do well in your debates inshallah
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
dear same is for X-rays as for gamma rays.

indeed any rays.
even light.
the science has just guesses for electron or even atom.
the photon are smaller than any sub atomic particles.
so they dont know what are they.
even about atom.
all are guess.
there is no microscope which can see atom.
even the electron microscope.
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
i think he found the answer. he might me in the search of ALLAH. i whish i could know if he found him. i always feel so much happy when i connect peoples with ALLAH.
its not strange. even among most of Muslim they also do not find him yet. so i was on preaching for three days. and peoples there become so much happy. that awareness of ALLAH is kind of different.
and ALLAH also become so happy. i ask something from him he gave me. i shall be thank full to him.
thanks to him.
i also pray for kingdebator who ever man was behind may ALLAH give him right path. ameen
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
i think he found the answer. he might me in the search of ALLAH. i which i could know if he found him. i always feel so much happy when i connect peoples with ALLAH.
its not strange. even among most of Muslim they also do not find him yet. so i was on preaching for three days. and peoples there become so much happy. that awareness of ALLAH is kind of different.
and ALLAH also become so happy. i ask something from him he gave me. i shall be thank full to him.
thanks to him.
i also pray for kingdebator who ever man was behind may ALLAH give him right path. ameen
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
be helping, thank you in advance. if you wait at least for one day to post your argument.
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
dont post your argument not but at last day. i am going for three days for preaching within my country to my fellow muslims. so i will come after three days. if you post now than i will have only two days.
two days to reply you. make it late so i can come back on time for 4th round.
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
i read it again now.
but dont worry i will correct the mistakes.
and put some extra to make you understand.
sorry for being careless.
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
there are very few mistakes at the last section.
i told you dont have much time.
i did this debate in many attempt.
i did last part first and than the first at last. so the think get little mixed.
there were some spelling mistake too.
but i think they dont gonna bother readers much.
the Quranic verse is so so so so so much relevant. the best description of ALLAH by him self.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by calculatedr1sk 3 years ago
calculatedr1sk
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by StevenDixon 3 years ago
StevenDixon
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Reasons for voting decision: forfeit
Vote Placed by Greematthew 4 years ago
Greematthew
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Total points awarded:12 
Reasons for voting decision:
Vote Placed by jh1234l 4 years ago
jh1234l
KingDebatermakhdoom5Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Arguments to con: Con's argument had many flaws, such as the x-ray argument, but pro utterly failed to refute it and instead forfeited.
Vote Placed by philochristos 4 years ago
philochristos
KingDebatermakhdoom5Tied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: forfeit