The Instigator
Samacado
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
mors202
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

Atheist are better people than those who are religous (genraly)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/25/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,261 times Debate No: 3374
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (9)

 

Samacado

Pro

Not only is scripture almost all false, it also encourages matrydom and murder in the name of religion. Although religous people try to act better because there is evidently (or rather un-evidently) a diety watching over them, it that really better than just being a kind person on your own acord? An interesting antecdote to support this is in 1976, Canada. When the police went on strike a massive crime wave swept the city, untill the army and national guard had to be called in. Studies show that out of the hundreds convicted less than one percent were athiests, and the vast majority were christian. Hmmm....
mors202

Con

At the beginning of the debate, I'm willing to concede that there are many people who have done horrendous acts in the name of a religious faith. However, there are also avowed atheists who have committed atrocities on par, and worse, in both scope and violence. For example, communism is atheistic. There is no religion in communist countries, all religions are oppressed. So, I ask you, which countries have been guilty of some of the most flagrant violations of human rights? The communist countries. The gulag was in the USSR and the killing fields of Cambodia were run by the Khmer Rouge--a communist regime. To make the argument that religion promotes violence simply ignores the simple fact that atheists have just as much capability of violence--and have committed very violent, dangerous acts on people.
This leads to my next point. The average religious person is not a nut. The average religious person does believe that there is a moral code to live by. How much better would the world be if everyone followed the Ten Commandment's doctrine on how to treat your fellow men: Honor your father and mother, do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not covet. A religion whose followers believe, and practice these simple tenants, as most Christians do, is not inherently violent. This is just one example of many that I could go into. However, the point is that there the religious nuts are the exception, not the rule.
Debate Round No. 1
Samacado

Pro

A very good point. Communism does not allow religion in the government, what you are explaining is Marxism, regular communism is just separation of church and state to an extreme. You are still allowed to practice a religion.

If you are going to name names then yes Stalin and other Communists have committed atrocities. But let us not forget Hitler (Catholic) how murdered millions of Jews alone in the name of his religion. Most wars (I think almost all are) founded in religion. The war in Iraq is religious, less so the US involvement, but the original civil war and war in the surrounding area is founded in religion. Same with Ireland, the government will tell you it is a dispute between Conservatives and Liberals, but rather Catholics and Protestants. (Just saying for some reason right now I'm operating in slow motion)

I can't argue that average religous people are evil, because they aren't. But have you ever heard of an average athiest doing something bad? And don't tell me that's because there aren't enough of them, there are more atheists than Muslims and Jews in the US.
mors202

Con

Even if you are still allowed to practice a religion in a communist country, it is a state-sponsored and censored religion and other religions are persecuted, such as non-state Christian fellowships in China. In addition, the communist leaders, who order the atrocities, are avowed athiests.
Aside from the fact that the list you gave is factually innacurate and misleading, what you have done is nothing more than what I did in my last argument: naming exceptions to the rule. There are atheistic nuts and there are religious nuts.
And when you ask whether I have ever heard of an athieist doing something bad, what are you implying? Do you mean to suggest that atheits are capable of human perfection? I doubt it. History has shown, time and time again, that people of every stripe and belief are capable of doing wrong. As an example of an atheistic wrong, consider the French Revolution. It was, generally, an atheistic and deistic movement, religiously speaking, and athiests were prominent in the egging of the executions. As an example of a Christian wrong, consider the Puritan witch hunts. These examples show how regular people, when given power or given over to paranoia, can react in a violent, wrong fashion.
However, even though religious people are capable of doign wrong, consider what they believe. Christians, believe in these scriptures: Romans 12:18,"If it is possible,as far as it depends upon you, live at peace with everyone" and "Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44). Are people who believe in these words generally worse people than athiests?
Debate Round No. 2
Samacado

Pro

The thing is people don't really believe in these things. They attempt to convince themeselves that they beleive it and they follow all the little rules. I'll give you communism though. But what about the other forms of goverment? Almost no others are influnced by atheism, and don't tell me that comunism is the only bad one.

I will not atempt to disect religion and attempt to prove it false at this point, but it is bad. It does start wars. However the argument is not about wether religion is good or not it's about atheists have better values than theists. Most likley yes because atheism is usually associated with higher education which greatly decreases crime rates in people. Atheist are also usually more open minded than those who stubornly follow a religion.

My argument is cut short because I have to leave and will be gone for the next day or so. Good argument, thank you for participating :)
mors202

Con

Yes, communism is the only government that was influenced strictly by atheism. However, it doesn't really help your argument that atheists are better people when the only strictly atheistic government turned out to be the one that has committed some of the most vicious atrocities in the history of humanity.

So, because religion has been the cause of some wars, it is bad? What about the other causes, are they bad? Wars have been fought over land and natural resources, are these things bad? No, not by themselves. It is only when people have an unhealthy covetousness towards these things that they become bad. In the same way, when people use religion to start war, that is a misuse of that religion.

What gives you the ability to judge whether religious people "really believe"? I know many religious people who have great belief in the tenets of their faith. Your statement is a blanket judgemental statement that, to be quite frank, has no grounding. In the same vein, what gives you the right to say that atheists have better moral values than theists? This is, once again, dependent on the person. The average atheist walking in America has better values than the Al-Quaeda suicide bomber killing women and children. However, the average religious person has better values than a Fidel Castro of Joseph Stalin. However, almost universally among religions is the belief in the "common law", that is, a belief against murder and theft, to name a few. As I've said before, and a statement which you have not refuted, would not the world be a better place if people followed the last 6 of the 10 Commandments--which are part of orthodox Christian canon? Does a faith that teaches "love your enemies" and "live at peace with one another" and "thou shalt not murder" one whose followers are, inherently, less moral than a person who does not believe in these tenets? I would argue that, on a basic level, the average religious person and the average atheist would agree almost 100% on most issues.

A saying that "atheism is usually associated with higher education" is completely wrong. Consider this; Harvard, Yale, Princeton and numerous other colleges were started as religious training institutions. Some of the most intelligent and influential people in the world, such as Issac Newton or Einstein, a self-proclaimed agnostic (http://en.wikipedia.org...). I know multiple Christians who have doctorates, are teachers, or went to prestigious universities. To say that being religious people do not appreciate higher education is a ridiculous statement to make.

As for atheists being more open minded, well, my friend, you have been twisting facts this whole argument to make your case. You have called, or implied, that religious people are violent warmongers and are ignorant. An open minded person would realize and accept the basic facts, not try to spin them, and not make such judgements about a huge segment of the world's population.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tangerineman91 8 years ago
tangerineman91
Though I would not avoid a debate on the Hitler-Christianity issue, I am rather engulfed in schoolwork. Therefore I would not be able to devote as much time as I would desire in presenting an argument.
Posted by Samacado 8 years ago
Samacado
Hmm... if only we could have some sort of debate on this Hitler topic... if only there was some sort of website in which we could argue for a few rounds and then have our disagreements voted upon to decide whom the victor is... oh well.

Once again Mors at 9 to 1 i think you have won.
Posted by tangerineman91 8 years ago
tangerineman91
Hitler did say that he was religious. But his decisions were not rooted in any type of religious thought. Therefore I would conclude that him saying that he was Catholic has no bearing on what he did. His purpose for genocide had nothing to do with religion. In fact, the mass extermination of Jews is directly in contradiction of any type of any basic Christian based religious concepts.

Also, the left wing in the United States was very supportive of the Hitler and Mussolini regimes until the war started. That doesn't necessarily mean that Hitler and the left wing believed in the same things.
Posted by Samacado 8 years ago
Samacado
I voted for you to Mors

And Hitler indeed was religous, in fact the Vatican supported him.
Posted by tangerineman91 8 years ago
tangerineman91
Though you have my vote mors202, there's something you missed when it came to the "religious war" comments. Though many wars have been fought "in the name of war," many of those wars (with the exception of many Islamic wars) only used religious as an excuse to gain land and wealth.

Also, the reference to Hitler has the same problem. Though he most certainly did use religion as an excuse to some extent, there were extremely strong undercurrents of Nietzche thought in his decisions. I won't go in depth, but where does the idea of a superior race come from? Most certainly not from his catholic roots. Therefore, I would argue that Hitler's warmongering attitude under the argument of the dominance of a superior race has nothing to do with religion.
Posted by mors202 8 years ago
mors202
Thank you very much, Samacado.
And I would be interested, though, with school and all, there is a huge time crunch right now.
Posted by Samacado 8 years ago
Samacado
I got served. Bravo, Mors. Bravo. I'd like to do that again some time, and thank you for replying.

I'm going to recomend a book to you, it is about atheism (and actually i can use this to make a point...). It is called the God Delusion, By Richard Dawkings. It is excelent and I hope you read it.
Posted by Agent_D 8 years ago
Agent_D
Nice argument mors202. You have my vote
Posted by Samacado 8 years ago
Samacado
AAAA! Some random person is IMing me
Posted by Samacado 8 years ago
Samacado
OMG That Sam guy is so sexy! Hurry up and reply, I'm up for a debate
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Vote Placed by Statesman 8 years ago
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