The Instigator
FollowerofChrist1955
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Scruggs
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Atheist, are under Gods wrath, no attempts should be made to convert them.

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
Scruggs
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/3/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,370 times Debate No: 99561
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (58)
Votes (2)

 

FollowerofChrist1955

Pro


This debate is to believers, and holds that the atheist is not to be pursued for conversion. This is based on empirical evidence of the scriptures instructions. For centuries the Christians wastes countless, hours, days weeks, months and years in attempts to convert an atheist, when multiple unbelievers, might have been saved, by the same believer had they not wasted time with an atheist. As believers know time grows short and time is of the essense, must get the word out to those who "can" be saved.


It is the goal of this debate to enlighten the Christian to renew the spreading of the gospel to the seeking, and not the cursed, allowing for greater salvation to the masses. Does this mean that no sharing of the gospel is permitted to the atheist? Certainly not, however it should only come in an answer to a question of the atheist. Questions which insist upon evidence being provided should therefore be ignored completely as evidence has been readily provided by God, and God requires the atheist to First seek Him (God). Only after this will God Himself, provide the way towards salvation.


Debates therefore should be limited to acceptance by those seeking a greater knowledge of God and scriptural clarification thus the requirements that no atheist may accept your debates is crucial. All other debates should be limited to believers, who have conflicts in doctrines, secondary to immaturity, False doctrine, misleading doctrines of man, Biblical illiteracy. Examples would be nontrinitarians, traditionalists, the religious and such.


To long has the Religious boards been allowed to be hijacked by the Atheist. Please review the debates on


http://www.debate.org...


and


http://www.debate.org...


(For familiarization purposes only) Questions regarding the above past debates may be asked in the comments section of THIS new debate area.



Rule 1. No atheist or unbeliever may accept this debate, as you have no knowledge of the subject matter.


Rule 2. Only Christians may accept this particular debate, as it is Christian specific, meaning the Bible IS the required text, and no advanced knowledge of Biblical text is necessary or required for this debate as the seeking Christian shall be lead to scriptures that discuss this topic.


Rule 3. No Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness may accept this debate, as they do not use the Bible! They created their own which is in direct violation of scripture.


Rule 4. No cults of any kind may accept this debate.


Rule 5. No Religion outside Christianity may accept this debate as they have no knowledge of the God of THE BIBLE (King James Bible - those Bibles found on the website Biblegateway.com are acceptable).


Rule 6. New Testament believers only!


Rule 7. 3 rounds acceptance 1st, then arguments.



Scruggs

Con

I accept the debate. However, I would like to set an official definition for "atheist." I will use the definition in Oxford Dictionaries:
"A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods."
Debate Round No. 1
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Greetings Brother;

May our journey together be illuminated by the Spirit of God.

Colossians 1:16

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

As I am unfamiliar with the maturity level of those in attendance, let us begin with the basics of Gods command;

Galatians 2:20

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.


1 Corinthians 6:19-20

19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

Matthew 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Luke 14:27

And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.


In the above statements lies the sum total of and the beginnings of true Faith in Christ Jesus for all believers worldwide.

Disciples of Christ, are commanded to forsake themselves in all things.

Our thoughts, Our Rights, Our interpretations, Our beliefs, Our opinions about all things. It is these things or lack of these things which defines our success or our failure in our relationship with our Risen Savior.

We have “died to sin and self” and been buried with Christ and resurrected to new Life “in” Him! Written here;

Romans 6:4

“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”


Simple beginning brother, but necessary for the younger brothers with limited understanding. Onward to topic;

Atheist are not to be pursued because they cannot hear, perceive nor understand anything you tell them? They are under Gods curse, as such they have been judged, condemned and consigned to Hell, and The Lake of Fire. They cannot HEAR you anymore than those buried in your cemeteries. They must seek God themselves, only then may they possibly be forgiven and saved.

Galatians 3:22

But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Ezekiel 18:4

"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.


The Judgement upon atheist: Isaiah 6, Matthew 13, and Romans 1

God the Father said;

Isaiah's Commission (Isaiah)

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" 9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' 10 "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."…


Jesus said; (Matthew)

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]


God the Father/Jesus (Romans)

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.



So you see brothers and sisters we are to preach the gospel to mankind, we are not to argue, rationalize, attempt to convince, talk into or bribe the dead! We are commanded “not” to cast pearls before swine, and give to the dogs that which is Holy?

Jesus said

Matthew 7:6

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."


Isn’t “that” exactly what the atheist do to you when you attempt to show them the word of the God you serve? Then Brothers and Sisters, “WHY” do you continue to do it.

God, is not something one is to try on, like a shirt, or car, or couch. He IS GOD! No scripture in the entirety of the Bible demonstrates Jesus bribing, coercing, or arguing with the nonbeliever, only with the Religious, who were as lost as the unbelievers!

So you see brothers and sisters in Christ the description of an Atheist is not “found” in a secular text, but is readily found in the scripture”


Apologetics readily teaches us that an Atheist is not one who is unsure; he “knows” exactly what he believes in! He does not straddle any fence; this is “WHY” they fight you with such vigor. And it is also “WHY” you fail.

Those who turned to Christ never fought Him, they readily followed Him, some for the right reason, but the majority for the wrong reasons, but over time these departed leaving only the true followers.

We are not to debate them, fight them, bribe them …. We are to “expose them” as the fools they are!

Remember Romans? but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools


Ephesians 5

10 Test and prove what pleases the Lord. 11 Have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.…

This is a good beginning, let us reason you and I, and in the doing let us draw nearer to God, as His children.

I Thank You for your acceptance my brother, may God Bless, you and yours. I await your response.

Scruggs

Con

In this round, I will be providing my initial arguments. I will not be responding to any of my opponent’s arguments in this round.

Should Christians attempt to convert atheists? Yes. Why would we not? An atheist is no more in a state of salvation than a Hindu or a Muslim. My opponent states that the Scriptures instruct Christians to not engage with and try to convert atheists. We will have to wait and see what the citations are. My opponent has also stated that following: “For centuries the Christians [sic] wastes countless, hours, days weeks, months and years in attempts to convert an atheist, when multiple unbelievers, might have been saved, by the same believer had they not wasted time with an atheist.” There is something to be said about this. Christians should not waste time where it is obvious that someone’s heart is hardened beyond penetration. The best one can do is try to plant a seed and hope that it will grow on its own. Yet this is true not only of atheists, but also of any non-Christian.

My opponent raises another good point in saying the following:

“Questions which insist upon evidence being provided should therefore be ignored completely as evidence has been readily provided by God, and God requires the atheist to First seek Him (God). Only after this will God Himself, provide the way towards salvation.”

It is true that an atheist demanding evidence can be a sign that they are a lost cause. After all, Romans 1:19, 20 reads:

“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” (ESV)

In other words, the atheist demanding evidence already has it. That does not mean we should immediately abandon our interactions if an atheist demands evidence. Perhaps probing questions and insightful dialog can cause someone’s heart to open up. There are plenty of ministries dealing with intelligent design and creationism [1]. As one can imagine, these ministries target audience are typically naturalists/atheists. Ken Ham, while I disagree with much of his ministry, has dialoged with Bill Nye on and off in an effort to help him see God’s hand. To help open his mind and heart. Mr. Ham does not waste his time on it, as it is not a devotion. He just does this in his free time, as does Mr. Nye. There is nothing wrong with this dialog. In fact, it is fruitful not only for those involved but also those who observe.

Matthew 29:18 obviously tells us to go and make disciples. That includes the atheist. It includes anyone who is not already a disciple. Yet we are not supposed to waste our time on people who are too hardened (Matthew 10:14). Are all atheists a waste of time and too hardened? Surely not. One great examples would be C.S. Lewis. There have been many atheists who have experienced what is written in Ezekiel 36:26: “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh” (ESV).

This may seem like a rather short argument (and it is). However, there are no two ways about it. Christians are not to exclude all atheists from their efforts to make new disciples. This is not a Scriptural understanding at all.

Sources:
[1] Reasons to Believe, Answers in Genesis, Discovery Institute, etc.

Debate Round No. 2
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Excellent, an opportunity to train, presents itself. I will address my opponents’ opinions momentarily.

To the Believers it should be noted that at the present time there are Within Christianity alone approximately 33,820 denominations per World Christian Encyclopedia.

33,820! One must therefore reflect upon the obvious question? Is it a wonder that the unbelieving of the world, mock us at our Faith? Is it a miracle that atheist reject claims of a creator? Is it truly so astounding that so many fail to “FIND” God ? Tsk …. Such a pity. And to “What” do we attribute this too? What pearl of wisdom is proffered the unbelieving when asked the why of such mass volumes of differing beliefs?

As recollection of past encounters with hardcore atheist prove “they” are quite aware of these disparaging numbers! And are quick to throw them in your face?

Why then the 33,820 denominations? Pull out your Bible see for yourself “which “denomination” name is given or mentioned” in the whole of scripture? Where is your “denomination”? answer that and the problem becomes self-revealing.

I bear witness to believers everywhere that there are not 33,820 ways to salvation, there is but one! Yet which one, the unbeliever asks? How sad that even the believers appear to be at a loss to explain its cause, though the answer stands glaring them in the face, yet goes unacknowledged by the greater part of Christians?

So to what “DO” you attribute this too? Biblical illiteracy? False doctrine? immaturity? The proverbial I’m right their wrong syndrome? Or do you even know? As previously stated, the problem stares us in the face every time we look in the mirror. There can be only one problem; because there is only “one” common denominator isn’t there? US!

Attend me brothers and sisters in Christ? It cannot be the Bible, because it is and remains inerrant …. But “we” are not inerrant are we? So if it isn’t the Bible? Ahhh, you begin to see the problem at its root. “WE” are mistaken, “WE are errant, and why? The answers as always has been staring us in the face, (staring us in the face that is “IF” ) we have been faithful in the study of the word, rather than staring at the TV evangelist, the pastors, and pulpits, theologians and scholars books of the world, from which the mass population of believers go for their weekly dose of being told “WHAT” to believe, what to think, what the Bible really meant or what the prophets really “were” saying?

Let us begin to understand “OUR” problem … by seeking the answers, not in a scholars beliefs, a theologian’s opinion, nor even “OUR OWN” opinions. Let the Lord speak to us and tell us the truth of the word Himself. Indeed it has been this that has been missing all along. The problem is not you, them, me, it is us! We have been unfaithful to the word, and it is this that is the problem.

Problem #1 there “ARE” no denominations mentioned in scripture! Anywhere so quit looking! The one reason you’ve not noticed this is because you have likely been looking with the eyes of the self, instead of the eyes of Gods spirit. Perhaps it is not that and instead you’ve allowed yourself to be “TOLD” what to belief by your favorite preacher? Perhaps the answer lies in the countless scholastic books you riffle through to “FIND” your theories, your beliefs as it were?

No my fellow believers the truth “can only be found in God’s word alone”.

John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

Note it does not say, Joyce Meyers, Chuck Swindoll, Chuck Missler, Hal Lindsey, nor Billy Graham or any other preacher of the word! There is no name of scholars, theologians, philosophers’ within the Bibles pages is there? So why do you go too them for your dose of Bible?

Let me say that hearing the word from such Biblical scholars as these is NOT the problem as many are in fact true to their faith, indeed are even beloved of God. The problem lies in us because we FAIL to follow the instruction of the one whose name we are called by. It is our problem and we need to embrace that responsibility or lack of responsibility to God.

Acts 17: 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.


… searched the scriptures Daily to SEE if it was so ….. yes! It is THIS which made the beliefs of the word one, of one accord of ONE truth, there was no one to tell them what to believe “BUT Gods Spirit” and so they received the one truth, and not the 33,820 implied truths of scholars, theologians and priest and pastors, for of such things “WERE” the Pharisee’s and lest we forget?

Matthew 5: 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Quick note* READ Matthew 5:20 as a refresher and as a prompting of the seriousness of pursuing YOUR thoughts and opinions instead of Gods, BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE .... IF you have accepted Christ Jesus AS your savior, YOU ARE SAVED period!!!!! Eternal LIFE was given you AS A GIFT, Christ PAID the price IN FULL, you can add nor take away ANYTHING from it as you GAVE nothing to earn it! (just thought I needed to point that out)


Need more proof?

I did too once, and at times “STILL DO”? I am forever learning, forever searching within the scriptures for Gods truth an not my own, for I already know, I would “be” wrong if I searched for my truth, wouldn’t I?

1 John 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”


James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

So you see the problem then my brothers and sisters in Christ. We do wrong when we go to Men for the word of God, instead of God Himself. IT IS for this cause we come away with 33,820 different BELIEFS, isn’t it?

God says what he means and means what He says, until you learn THIS, you will continue to be a ship tossed in the seas described eloquently in the scriptures.

Gods word “SAYS”

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

GOD'S WORD® Translation- First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

Brothers and sisters God cannot BE more clear!

*** So why do you seek the interpretations of others including your own, when Gods word clearly forbids this?*****

In conclusion of subject- there are 33,820 “INTERPRETATIONS” being passed around as truth …. But there IS only “ONE TRUTH” and it comes from Gods word ALONE! Not from the lips of Men. Let’s us then, forego the words of mortal men as scripture admonishes us that;

Ephesians 4:14 -That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


As your Lord directs you;

Proverbs 3:12- for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.

Hebrews 5:12- For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

English Standard Version- For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,

Brothers this ought not to be so. So let us SPEAK not in “OPINIONS” as everyone “has them” all are wrong! Let us SHARE the word of God not of Men.

As to Con?

Should Christians attempt to convert atheists? Yes. Why would we not? An atheist is no more in a state of salvation than a Hindu or a Muslim.

Your absolutely wrong my brother; Hindu and Muslim are deluded, not atheist! They BELIEVE in God, just the wrong one, Atheist flatly DENY and REJECT Gods existence entirely,

I can see how you “would” think this using secular books to define your beliefs, but this ought not to be so. Scripture alone defines “Who we are, it is not a matter of what WE think is it? It is a matter of what God says! This would have been plain had you not wasted an entire block of debate responding with emotions and worldly thinking.

I am not condemning you my brother, were it possible to divulge my emotions in text, you would know this. I too sometimes react rather than “respond” just like you have in your reply of haste. Better you should have used the comments section first, then after discussions together, you could have made GOOD use of the debate block, I am sorry brother for your loss, as our time together rapidly comes to a close, I had hoped for better discussions. No problems though let us make good use of what remains between us!



Scruggs

Con

My opponent opens up his initial argument in a rather peculiar way. I believe he is attempting to lay down some groundwork/context for his actual argument. As a result, I do not feel obligated to directly respond to it. Since I have the room, I will directly quote my opponent in my responses and that should be easier on the reader. My opponent's quotations will be bolded.

Atheist are not to be pursued because they cannot hear, perceive nor understand anything you tell them? They are under Gods curse, as such they have been judged, condemned and consigned to Hell, and The Lake of Fire. They cannot HEAR you anymore than those buried in your cemeteries. They must seek God themselves, only then may they possibly be forgiven and saved. [cited passages are Galatians 3:22 and Ezekiel 18:4]

Is this true? Have atheists really been judged, condemned, and consigned to hell already? It is hard to say, really. An atheist today may not be an atheist ten years from now. It all depends on whether they are of God's elect. I, myself, was raised in a secular home and considered myself an atheist for the majority of my youth. My heart of stone was replaced with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). However, this was not based on my own effort or my own merit (Romans 9). If someone is not of God's elect (which could be an atheist, Hindu, Muslim, or even a self-proclaimed Christian) then they will justly recieve God's wrath. Unlike my opponent, I am not so quick to label a group of people as non-elect because they currently appear that way. Regarding the cited passages, I will reproduce them below and respond to each.

"Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:19-29; ESV)

Anyone can honestly see here that the context of Galatians 3:22 is not atheists. It is contrasting the Law with faith in Christ. It is not dealing with atheists, as my opponent has suggested. I would respond to Ezekiel 18:4, but it is not clear how my opponent is using it.

The Judgement upon atheist: Isaiah 6 [8-10], Matthew 13 [14, 15], and Romans 1 [18-32].

My opponent lists the supposed verses that show the “judgement upon atheists.” However, it should be noted that he is ripping these verses out of their context and giving them a new meaning. Let’s consider the passages that he provided.

"And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go forus?' Then I said, 'Here I am! Send me.' And he said, 'Go, and say to this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed'." (Isaiah 6:8-10; ESV)

Who is being discussed in this passage? It is answered by Jesus while he was on earth.

"That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. Then he told them many things in parables, saying: 'A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred,sixty or thirty times what was sown. Whoever has ears, let them hear.'

The disciples came to him and asked, 'Why do you speak to the people in parables?'

He replied, 'Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance.

Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it'." (Matthew 13:1-17; ESV)

Was Jesus speaking of atheists? No doubt. Was Jesus also speaking of Jews? No doubt. This is not an atheist's judgement specifically, but Jesus is speaking in a more general sense. He is speaking of a crowd that had gathered to listen to Him.

My opponent also cited Romans 1 as evidence of judgement against atheists. Again, Romans 1 is not specifically speaking of only atheists. Consider verses 21-24:

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them overin the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie,and worshiped and served created thingsrather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen." (ESV)

Are atheists the only ones who exchange "the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being a birds and animals and reptiles"? Of course not. Hindus do this as well as many other false religions. Are atheists the only ones who worship and serve "created things rather than the Creator"? Surely not. All false religions worship created things rather than the Creator. So I am not terribly sure why my opponent wants to limit the meaning of these passages to only atheists.

So you see brothers and sisters we are to preach the gospel to mankind, we are not to argue, rationalize, attempt to convince, talk into or bribe the dead! We are commanded "not" to cast pearls before swine, and give to the dogs that which is Holy? [cited Matthew 7:6]

The Bible does not say that we are not to argue, rationalize, attempt to convince, or talk to atheists. In fact, it says the exact opposite (1 Peter 3:15, 16). We should never bribe anyone living or dead. Though all of man is dead in their sins, not just atheists.

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work inthe sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived inthe passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodyand the mind, and were by naturechildren of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:1-10; ESV)

Regarding what is written in Matthew 7:6, I would point you toward Albert Barnes' commentary on the passage. He said: "The meaning of this proverb, then, is, do not offer your doctrine to those violent and abusive people who would growl and curse you; nor to those especially debased and profligate who would not perceive its value, would trample it down, and would abuse you." Does this only apply to atheists? No, it can even apply to fellow Christians or self-proclaimed brothers/sisters in Christ.

Conclusion

I believe I have made it rather clear that my opponent has no Scriptural leg to stand on. The Bible simply does not teach that Christians should not try to convert atheists. He has done a good job of pulling verses out of their context in order to make it seem that way, but just an elementary reading of the text disproves his position. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
58 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 9 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
I believe God is infallible,
Pope? Really? Please. Gods word of refusal to deny self applies to you as well. You should have known never to interpret Gods word. That you DIDN'T know is all required by anyone that you are off path, following the knowledge of men.
Posted by Scruggs 9 months ago
Scruggs
We get it, FollowerofChrist1955. You believe you are infallible and are the authority of Scripture. Crown yourself in Rome, dear Pope.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 9 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
PGA
Why do you come back to Him you refused instruction of before? Why do you continue in your seeking to justify your false thoughts? Your corrupted beliefs, born of Men? Your statement speaks the truth before all.

"So far you have used this same argument on Annanicole and me because we disagreed with your opinion. "

The evidence is before you. Deny as you might you cannot deny what IS plain. You statement says it all "because we disagreed "

You were informed, I HAVE no opinion save the scriptures!

Matthew 16:23-24
23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." 24Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

You clearly seek your own understanding not Gods. You clearly continue to refuse to DENY yourself, accepting only what you agree with? This IS in direct contradiction to the command that you MUST deny yourself ... this is not optional, yet you remain in defiance of it.

Christ Himself tells YOU that you CANNOT BE "His Disciple" for so long as you chose to refuse to deny yourself , take up your cross and Follow Him!

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

This scripture REQUIRES no interpretation of Men, it is plain and to the point. Perhaps in your search to alter scriptures to suit your thoughts you might perhaps find a scholar, theologian or preacher to side with you ... but it IS God that you will answer too, not a scholar. Go your way in peace, let your thoughts continue to BE YOUR THOUGHTS, till God come, then explain them to Him if you will. I am no lie nor interested in your opinions .... thank you anyway!
Posted by PGA 9 months ago
PGA
FollowerofChrist1955 :
"Scruggs;
Pity Scruggs, you have shown yourself a Liar, who knows not God. You speak in stupidity, making excuses and presenting NOTHING! Like the deluded atheist of the world you make excuses for your laziness to truly immerse yourself in scripture, and yours is the way of self destruction. I shall address you no more, for you have been tested and found to be false as required by scripture."

So far you have used this same argument on Annanicole and me because we disagreed with your opinion. We are labelled liars and unbelievers among other things. I suggest that you look at the problem as not so much his understanding of Scripture but yours. I think that some times a person can go too far one way or the other, either too Pharisaical (in that freedom in Christ is strangled), or too liberal (that any sin is justifiable).
Posted by CosmoJarvis 11 months ago
CosmoJarvis
FollowerofChrist, can you accept my debate regarding this topic?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Scruggs;
Pity Scruggs, you have shown yourself a Liar, who knows not God. You speak in stupidity, making excuses and presenting NOTHING! Like the deluded atheist of the world you make excuses for your laziness to truly immerse yourself in scripture, and yours is the way of self destruction. I shall address you no more, for you have been tested and found to be false as required by scripture.

Let all brothers and Sisters beware for this is a false man, filled with his own devices, and set on a path of judgement:

Revelation 2:2"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Posted by Scruggs 11 months ago
Scruggs
Again, there is no Scripture that tells me (or anyone else) to consult brothers and sisters for help in spiritual matters. My position is that there is no Scripture that forbids it. As a result, I take no issue with the practice. You are indeed citing passages. They are just not relevant to our discussion. You can keep quoting 2 Peter 1:20 until the Jews convert. It does not change the very plain meaning of it, which I have provided for you twice now.

I do not deny that we should seek wisdom in God and turn to Him for help. That does not mean we should not be willing to seek help from our brothers and sisters in Christ. God is not going to teach you Biblical Greek and Hebrew.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
It is my hope that you will not smell of smoke at the bema seat of Christ as discussed in 1 Corinthians 3 .
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Forgive me brother in my desperation to open your eyes and put them on a God, I have Become frustrated , I apologize publicly, but you must awaken, as time grows short and Christ return is closer than it was when you first believed!

I 'm giving advanced notice to you so you can improve your report card before hand. It is your decision.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you

Psalm 51:6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom

Proverb 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.

Daniel 2:21 "It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, accommodating, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial, and sincere.

Job 22:22 "Please receive instruction from His mouth And establish His words in your heart.

Alas my brother it could not be more clear! It is your problem that blinds you, for I cannot SEE for you, receive reproof and correction, or have it YOUR OWN. Way my brother.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Mharman 11 months ago
Mharman
FollowerofChrist1955ScruggsTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Matthew 29:18, a verse that specifically tells you to go out and convert atheists. Pro's argument was 100% destroyed with just that verse.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 11 months ago
Ragnar
FollowerofChrist1955ScruggsTied
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Reasons for voting decision: The first premise of Gods wrath was barely hinted at, certainly never proven... Can't say if there is or is not value in converting people from one religion to another (or from lack thereof), but negative value in the attempt was firmly refuted by con with such examples as the once atheist C.S. Lewis and the once Jew Jesus Christ, who as Christians certainly gave value to the world. Plus the whole giving context to defeat pro's poor interpretation and cherry picking of the bible... Pro of course made a rambling case which touched on such issues as how he doesn't like Christians other than members of his (single member?) denomination, how (apparently) all atheists are secretly deaf, and how no one should ever be told about the bible because if they were true Christians they would be born knowing it by heart (every newborn "flatly DENY and REJECT Gods existence entirely," (sic), via as stated in the accepted definition, "lack[ing] belief in the existence of God or gods").