The Instigator
FollowerofChrist1955
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
JimShady
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Atheist, are under Gods wrath, no attempts should be made to convert them.

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
JimShady
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/7/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,808 times Debate No: 99656
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (86)
Votes (1)

 

FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

I will select the person of debate, since rules appear to mean nothing here. As to believers, you do not have to be a scholar, you can even be brand new to Christianity. I ask only a desire to grow, quicker than you would normally. My sole purpose is to show you the word of God, not my word, not your word, nor that of any scholar. or preacher. I suggest highly that you go Too God and ask Him to open your mind, I can show you only the scripture and guide you into the word, I cannot and will not interpret it for you. For that you need God. Most can see it for what it is with no inference from me.
This debate is to believers, and holds that the atheist is not to be pursued for conversion. This is based on empirical evidence of the scriptures instructions. For centuries the Christians wastes countless, hours, days weeks, months and years in attempts to convert an atheist, when multiple unbelievers, might have been saved, by the same believer had they not wasted time with an atheist. As believers know time grows short and time is of the essense, must get the word out to those who "can" be saved.

It is the goal of this debate to enlighten the Christian to renew the spreading of the gospel to the seeking, and not the cursed, allowing for greater salvation to the masses. Does this mean that no sharing of the gospel is permitted to the atheist? Certainly not, however it should only come in an answer to a question of the atheist. Questions which insist upon evidence being provided should therefore be ignored completely as evidence has been readily provided by God, and God requires the atheist to First seek Him (God). Only after this will God Himself, provide the way towards salvation.

Debates therefore should be limited to acceptance by those seeking a greater knowledge of God and scriptural clarification thus the requirements that no atheist may accept your debates is crucial. All other debates should be limited to believers, who have conflicts in doctrines, secondary to immaturity, False doctrine, misleading doctrines of man, Biblical illiteracy. Examples would be nontrinitarians, traditionalists, the religious and such.

To long has the Religious boards been allowed to be hijacked by the Atheist. Please review the debates on

http://www.debate.org.........

and

http://www.debate.org.........

(For familiarization purposes only) Questions regarding the above past debates may be asked in the comments section of THIS new debate area.

This is an attempt to take back this site to the growing of the word for believers, and those who actualy are seeking God bit as yet are unsure.
Atheist are not unsure, they straddle no fences like some believers would like to think. They are not unaware, they DENY God, and it is This, that has cursed them, so don't blame me, Christians and don't hate me, I didn't do it, God did, you have a problem with that take it up with God please as I have no opinion on the matter. Thank you.
And stop using scriptures directed to unbelievers, as I have already stated, atheist are not unbelievers, they flatly deny Christ, and if your ANY kind of Christian you are fully AWARE of the punishment God has inflicted upon the Jews who HAVE rejected Christ!
JimShady

Con

Note:
(First off, I'd like to use atheism as well as paganism in this debate. Both of these options damn you to hell, so I think they can be used interchangeably. You could say "converting pagans is useless" Just the same as "converting atheists is useless" because both are unwilling to accept Jesus as God of the universe and will be punished by Hell.)

Debate:
I've read your previous debates on this topic. So there is no need to spam bible verses that have little or no pertinence to the discussion. The ones you choose are so vague to your opinion that I could probably use them for my side of the debate if I wanted to.

I will refer you to Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who do not need to repent." I barely have to explain this verse, it is so clear cut and obvious that God rejoices when sinners (atheists) convert. We must do God's will and work to convert them.

Aside from relying on scripture, we know that Roman Catholics and other Christian denominations have taken steps to evangelize those who do not believe in God. I find it very funny that your profile picture is of Saint Paul, arguably the greatest apostle ever who spread Christianity to thousands of pagans and atheists. Multiple Saints have worked to convert the masses, and one Catholic order, the Jesuits, worked viciously to spread the faith all over the world.

You say that spreading the faith is a waste of time. How, though? Christianity has been spread to the farthest reaches of the Earth. It hasn't been spread everywhere, which is a reason why we must act to convert. The benefits of working to convert atheists and pagans can be seen abundantly clear.

Also, I'm willing to bet you would be going to Hell if it were not for the spread of Christianity. What if Jesus and his apostles said "Ah, who cares about everyone else, let's keep this religion to ourselves and let everyone die." We would all be pagans or atheists if Jesus had this thought process. But Jesus was an evangelizer. And in Luke 10:37, Jesus says "Go and do likewise."

We are to follow God's lead. This means to teach those who are unable or unwanting to be taught. They might not accept it, but God gives credit for you trying to convert them. The Lord holds you accountable for those you could've helped but didn't.

James 4:17 "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
Debate Round No. 1
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

First I welcome our Brother in Christ to this exploration of Truths as set forth in the Biblical narrative. As Believers of Christ Jesus it goes without saying that our conduct, manner and behaviorisms are solely based on scripture.

My young Brother in Christ let us begin with the opening statement, for you see it is in error, and IF it is in error, might not more error be found in what you believe? I say this neither in belligerence nor as insult, rather as a cautionary statement. Let us use another also incorrect statement to reveal the error above.

I could use Angels and Demons as interchangeably as Both are going to Hell. Do you now see the inaccuracy of your statement? My statement has a “FORM” of truth, but it is NOT truth when viewed with the eyes of our creator.

1/3rd of the Angels and Demons are truly going to Hell, but that in no way implies that ALL angels are going there does it? Of course not. So how is your statement wrong? It infers pagans are NOT believers, which is patently false. Pagans believe, just on the wrong gods. They do not reject Gods existence they are simply uninformed and therefore ABLE to be brought about to the proper side …. Unless that is, they become atheists! It is all there little brother, in your scriptures; a thing I'm wondering if you USE!

Acts 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

So what IS a pagan? A god worshipper, They BELIEVE, just the wrong things. Just as there are 2 levels of angels of the heavenly host, 1/3rd of the Fallen angels (200 of which are in chains- but that’s another story), and lastly Demons.

So too are there 3 classes of people. The saved, the damned and the unsaved. Atheist are not unbelievers, Atheist DENY and Reject the existence of Christ altogether, That’s the difference!

A few atheist statements for you: from those I’ve talked to;

Yes please! All Christians everywhere please take this to heart and never try to proselytize (aka annoy me with logically flawed arguments I have heard 100 times) me again.

Birds are dinosaurs (subset of dinosaurs). Humans are classified as apes. There is no need to evolve, if there is no selective pressure for it.

HA I supplied evidence that proved the Bible contained various fallacies.

There IS no God! If only people would listen to you, your religion would finally die out.

Your rules are so restrictive.

Is that why you're a "follower of christ?" Because you like restrictions?

yeah we get this one alot, I just happen to know the God stuff, the other guy is wrong, and if you don't believe as I do, it's because your being wicked and evil.

Check it out yourself, there are literally thousands on these Boards …. Now the question, Which one of these demonstrates he is “UNSURE” of Gods existence? NONE!

Atheist do not straddle fences, they are not uncertain as unbelievers are, they KNOW what they believe and they REJECT God outright! So you see my young brother.

This is why we never challenge an Atheist to debate, or accept an atheist to our debate. They are accursed for the SAME reason the Jewish people STILL refuse to hear the New Testament. It could not BE plainer, can it?


Con: I barely have to explain this verse

Con “I Think”

Con: Multiple Saints have worked to convert the masses, and one Catholic order, the Jesuits, worked viciously to spread the faith all over the world.

Con: You say that spreading the faith is a waste of time.

Con: I'm willing to bet

Con: But Jesus was an evangelizer. And in Luke 10:37, Jesus says "Go and do likewise."

Con: We are to follow God's lead. This means to teach those who are unable or unwanting to be taught.

Con: James 4:17 "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."

So young and completely ignorant of the word. Harsh yes, but I think apropos for this occasion. That you are handicapped if not allowed to speak using YOUR OWN words, Thoughts, wrong beliefs, such a pity, yet, there IS still time!

YOU are not a disciple little one. Saved? Of course you’re saved, I do not speak of salvation. Salvation IS YOURS and Heaven is your home. But you cannot “BE” Christ disciple lest you follow Him, and YOU do not do this? Do you. Attend me unlearned one.

Behold the Word of the Lord that calls you out as a non-disciple of Christ, and hear and see what MUST BE done to change this in your Life!

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Luke 14:27 And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Matthew 10:38 and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.

Hebrews 13:13 Therefore let us go to Him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace He bore.

Proverbs 22:19 So that your trust may be in the LORD, I have taught you today, even you.

Tell us little one where is evidence of self denial in your life? In the entirety of your statement WHERE did your humbleness reveal itself? Where was the unrestrained total confidence in the word of God? You have taken scriptures and wield them like a child whose found his found his fathers gun, and damage CAN occur from such irresponsible usage.

You must not participate in debates with unbelievers as you are clearly disarmed. Forget the debate, Inquire of me that I may instruct you. That I may prepare you for the road ahead. Begin using More scripture and less you. You can mislead a younger brother and God will take issue with such impudence. Forego the lessons learned from Man and GRASP the word of God, that you may be found worthy to escape the wrath that is to come. Oh right you think it’s already come and gone don’t you? WRONG!

A Believer must stand outside the box of Human reasoning to grasp that which is of God “Why”. Because we DO NOT THINK nor UNDERSTAND the totality of the mind of our Creator. When we do not put ourselves under the complete authority of God, instruction, guidance and service, we invariably wander into the realm of “I THINK”. Where you are NOW!

Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Word picture for you? Why do you suppose God tells you to put on the Helmet of Salvation?

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

The word of “WHO” Scholars? Commentators? Pastors? Priests? Popes? Denominations?, Televangelists? The words of …… put whatever or whoever you like here I have confidence in your abilities to see truth when handed too you.

The scriptures do not say take anyone’s words BUT HIS! And it is THIS that is the result of 33,820 offshoots of Christianity. Man has corrupted what was Holy, and created a totally different gospel, than was given. Set aside the 33,820 for now I promise that all is well despite man’s ineptitude in his handling of God’s word, praise God He cannot be outdone by us. I shall explain the reason ALL 33,820 CAN be correct for Salavation purposes ONLY!

Attend me Brothers, go to your computer and type in “scriptures on I Think” after this seek through them ALL find JUST 1 that states I THINK God meant, this or that? Happy hunting, because you will never find one. Yet how many times have YOU said that very thing with regard to scriptures of God? Indeed how many times have you used this inappropriate word to an unbeliever? I think you begin to see the problems that are the center of the Church of Today.

Hear and obey the word of God or Call God a liar if you wish;

Romans 1: 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, WHO SUPRESS THE TRUTH by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For ALTHOUGH THEY KNEW God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God GAVE THEM OVER in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

This is those who REJECT God- called ATHEIST. Unbelievers remain searching, NOT REJECTING … you must learn the difference!

Matthew 13: 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

So little one …. Read the above statement and explain to us how in the world a person whose MIND has been CLOSED by God, can be converted by your rambling?

Lest we forget?

Revelation 3: “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

JimShady

Con

First of all, cut out all the nonsense. Stop calling be brother, and quit talking like you are some damn king. I'm not impressed or intimidated at all. I am here to debate and show you why your faith is flawed, not act like a Christian snob.

Your whole point is that atheist are unredeemable. You say that pagans have a chance to make it to heaven though. Here is where you're wrong. I'm a Catholic (I also wanna know your religion), and the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that all people have enough sanctifying grace in their hearts to be saved. No one is incapable of being saved. Therefore we must work to help those who are atheists, even if you think it impossible.

What's your evidence that atheists are impossible to convert? You infer pagans are redeemable, and say pagans are incomparable to atheists because atheists cannot be saved. So false, as we know there have been many conversions of atheists to Christianity. Here is a short list of some prominent ones. https://en.wikipedia.org... . You say I am in error, and therefore my argument is flawed, by I just used straightforward evidence to prove you wrong.

And what do you bring to the table? Exactly what I hoped you wouldn't. You use scripture that is entirely irrelevant to the question of this debate: Atheists are under God's wrath and no attempts should be made to convert them. While I'm quoting scripture that actually RELATES to the topic, you are spamming bible verses. As an example, you quote Matthew 16:24, "Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me." Okay, that's a nice verse. However, it has nothing to do with your point of converting atheists. Another example, Proverbs 22:19 "So that your trust may be in the LORD, I have taught you today, even you." Another good verse, but has no pertinence to the actual debate. Anyone can copy and paste the whole Bible (which is basically what you are doing). It takes true Biblical knowledge to quote the right verses, which you fail so badly at. The only good one I see you brought up was Matthew 10:38 "and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me." Good one, a point for you. To bad you hurt yourself with all the useless ones earlier.

You have a list of quotes from atheist where they outright deny the existence of God. While many atheists are very stubborn, does not mean they are unable to be converted. Refer to my list of converted atheists from earlier for proof of that.

This is what irks me the most, when you say this:

So young and completely ignorant of the word. Harsh yes, but I think apropos for this occasion. That you are handicapped if not allowed to speak using YOUR OWN words, Thoughts, wrong beliefs, such a pity, yet, there IS still time!

Apparently you think I'm ignorant of the word. That's fine if you believe that, however don't just say that, EXPLAIN WHY. You just quoted what I said, than said it is ignorant and moved on with many unrelated biblical verses. How is it ignorant?

"YOU are not a disciple little one." There are two definitions of a disciple, a personal follower of Jesus during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles (which is neither of us) and a follower or student of a teacher, leader, or philosopher. I am a follower and have studied Jesus, therefore I am classified as a disciple. Your feeble insult is easily refuted with an unbiblical definition.

This calls to mind something: you don't have to know every passage of scripture to be faithful to God's teachings. After all, even the Devil quoted scripture when he tempted Jesus in the desert, and the Devil was not exactly a good person. You claim that I wield scripture like a child with his dad's guns. Again, explain how. How were my passages childish? You need to explain yourself, not just accuse with no back-up. I have explained why you fail at scripture quoting, because most of your verses are unrelated to the topic. If anything, you are the "little one" who needs to learn how to use scripture in a religious debate. By the way, you say I am not humble, and yet you contradict yourself by saying "that I may instruct you. That I may prepare you for the road ahead." You are putting yourself before God's help. But still, thanks for trying to convert me to your side, even if you are wrong. That's what we should do, convert those who are atheistic.

I am not "clearly disarmed," and I will not "forget the debate." This IS a debate, not a scripture show-off. I will no use less me, because scripture alone explains nothing, as you have so unwisely demonstrated.

Here you say "A Believer must stand outside the box of Human reasoning to grasp that which is of God "Why". Because we DO NOT THINK nor UNDERSTAND the totality of the mind of our Creator. When we do not put ourselves under the complete authority of God, instruction, guidance and service, we invariably wander into the realm of "I THINK". Where you are NOW!" Okay, that's nice, even though it's completely unrelated to the debate at hand.

Again you go with another list of uneeded biblical passages. Please, enough already. Also, your faulty argument that my interpretation of the Bible is wrong is filled with contradictions. First, you interpreted the bible by saying that my Bible verses are ignorant. According to you, the Bible should not be interpreted, so my Bible verses should be absolutely perfect to you. The fact is that the Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is up to interpretation. You do not have to believe that God literally created the Earth in only 6 days and then rested. "God is outside of time, and 6 days could be 6 years" is a completely fine interpretation of the Bible, and not heresy. (However church doctrine and central dogma is uninterperable and undisputable. But we are talking about the Bible.) The only reason there are 33,820 denominations is because Martin Luther, the first to split decided to DELETE part of the Bible, no INTERPRET it. You need more facts, less Bible verses that are irrelevant.

By the way you keep quoting verses, it seems you think the debate is whether I believe in Gods eternal word. Well, I'll answer that really quick. Yes. Now can we get back to the whole atheism-conversion debate?

I have read Matthew 13:14. This is by far your strongest Bible verse yet, and I do have to admit I had to think about this. After close analyzation, though, I found the word "hardly" before hear and after they in verse 15. This goes to show that even though atheists are prone to reject God, humans can still influence them to conversion. Again, see my list of converts for evidence. God has the capability of healing the hearts of atheists directly, but he also can heal them through the acts of others. Much like the Sacrament of Conffession, God works in persona through the priest. What if the priest said, "Ah, forget ya'll rely on God alone."? We are called to help one another, it is what we do as Christians.

I hope in your response you can directly address my points. In your Round 2, you barely even talked about what I said, and when you did, you simply said "You're wrong." No explanation, and then you jumped into Bible verses. I answered you directly throughout by putting quotes, then explaining. Please show me the same courtesy, not a bunch of Bible verses picked from a hat at random.

I'll restate some of my points that I'd like you to address directly to make it easier:

1. Luke 15:7. Tell me why it is wrong, if you can.
2. Benefits of converting atheists/agnostics/atheists can be show, and for the fourth time, check out my listof converts, the link is above but here it is again.https://en.wikipedia.org...
3. You would not be Christian if it were not for conversion efforts. Only Jesus and his apostles would go to heaven if they believed what you believe.
4. Luke 10:37. Jesus, as we both fully agree without debate, is capable of converting an atheist. In scripture, he says "Go and do likewise."

Reread my Round 2 as well, and make sure you answer my arguments this time, don't just spam irrelevant scripture like usual.

A new I pose to you, please make sure to answer:

1.You argue that converting atheists is a waste of time. However, if you pray for one, and then you still fail at converting him/her, you still benefit from praying to God, correct? So is it really a complete waste of time?

Reading your Round 2 debate, I couldn't help but think that a Pharisee was talking to me. You might think you are fighting for the righteous cause, but really you contradict the teachings of God in a very prideful, "I know the Bible" sort of way. Take that into account before you fill Round 3 up with the entire New Testament and call me ignorant. I have displayed that I'm not.

We worship God "who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4. It could not be more clear.
Debate Round No. 2
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Now, now, now, your true colors reveal themselves? We do not curse. Don’t get your panties in a wad. If your gonna play in the adult world, BE adult? Child I say, Child you are, till you show some sense of respect for God instead of your religion.

Con-Your whole point is that atheist are unredeemable.

Do you see? You spout inaccuracy and want us to believe you know what you’re talking about. But every word shows your completely lacking in both knowledge and experience.

This is the Debate: Atheist, are under Gods wrath, no attempts should be made to convert them.

Where does it say Atheist are “unredeemable”? That’s proof you’re not even aware of the subject? So should you not “be” aware of the subject before you respond? Otherwise you fill the page with irrelevance because you’re under the wrong self-imposed delusion.

Con- You say that pagans have a chance to make it to heaven though.

I quoted Acts 17:22 and the last part of Acts 17:22 said ”So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.” Paul says they can be converted because he is about to proclaim the Lord to them.

I am not you. I use Gods word to preach Gods word, where as you use your own wordunder some delusion that unbelievers NEED YOU to explain Gods words too, them. God does not need you to explain anything, He NEEDS YOU to testify of His working in YOUR LIFE, not your interpretations of His Word. So get it right!

Con-Here is where you're wrong. I'm a Catholic (I also wanna know your religion), and the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches ….

Hmmm- I’m sorry I just went back to my scripture, and the Bibles listed in the Biblegateway.com website some 202 different translation of the gospels and … I seem to be having trouble FINDING a catechism? Can you SHOW us where the Bible provides us a … what did you call it? A catechism? We’ll wait for your response of course, patience IS a virtue.

Doesn’t the Bible expressly Forbid, the adding to or taking away from it? Is this your first encounter WITH the Bible on your own?

Con- What's your evidence that atheists are impossible to convert? You infer pagans are redeemable, and say pagans are incomparable to atheists because atheists cannot be saved.

Sigh, I hate to repeat myself but you may have missed it before so: The Debate Heading

This is the Debate: Atheist, are under Gods wrath, no attempts should be made to convert them.

Exactly where is impossible Stated, and You brought up Pagans not me! Remember this? Con- (First off, I'd like to use atheism as well as paganism in this debate.

Now you got your drawers in a wad, on a topic YOU brought up? Don’t want the truth, don’t bring them up! Besides, I quoted Acts 17, where pagans were discussed. Read it yourself, it’s not hard to understand.

Con- You use scripture that is entirely irrelevant to the question of this debate: Atheists are under God's wrath and no attempts should be made to convert them.

Ahh HA, See you DID know the topic, but promptly went off on your own tangent, your own thoughts, your own beliefs not Gods, THEN brought up pagans only to whine because I had to use scriptures on Pagans, now your crying foul. You now bring up catechism, which of course MANDATES the use of scripture which demonstrates Gods forbidding of such practices and will no doubt, burst into a fit of despondency when I show them to you, when YOU’RE THE one whose “bring them up”! Again don’t want to know the truth DON’T bring them up!

But?

Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it”

Deuteronomy 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.[a]

Psalm 119:160 All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.

Proverbs 30:6. "Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar"

Proverbs 30:5 “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.”

Revelation 22:18-19. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this Book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this Book"

Tell us child …. Exactly “where” IS the catechism” located IN the Bible?


Con- While I'm quoting scripture that actually RELATES to the topic, you are spamming bible verses.

Really? Spamming? Sigh such ignorance of scripture is being demonstrated here.

Con- As an example, you quote Matthew 16:24, "Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me." Okay, that's a nice verse. However, it has nothing to do with your point of converting atheists.

COULD YOU BE any denser! Okay I’ll will let the audience decide this: How can you ever HOPE to convert someone into something YOU are NOT! I cannot teach mechanics if I’ve no experience AS a mechanic.

God says Con is NOT A DISCIPLE, Pro makes no such assertion beyond what Scripture points out. Con has clearly NOT denied himself, Con has clearly NOT taken up his cross and followed after Jesus, therefore Christ states, not Pro, that Con cannot BE His Disciple, until he does these things.

So you audience tell me? If Con is not a disciple, how is he going to MAKE disciples? God makes disciples God used pharaoh, but Pharaoh received no blessing because he wasn’t saved. No I’m not saying Con is not saved, God knows Pro doesn’t. I shall hope he is. Point IS that Matthew 16 clearly does have to do with the subject, which is the saving of people. Not my fault Con cannot see this. There’s a lot Con doesn’t see.

Con-Another example, Proverbs 22:19 "So that your trust may be in the LORD, I have taught you today, even you." Another good verse, but has no pertinence to the actual debate.

As to believers, you do not have to be a scholar, you can even be brand new to Christianity. I ask only a desire to grow, quicker than you would normally.

This was in the opening of the debate 2nd sentence, not my fault Con doesn't READ before he talks.

Con- It takes true Biblical knowledge to quote the right verses

yeah like catechism? like Relics worship?....(2 Kings 18:4) that what you call TRUE Biblical Knowledge is it Con? Take that to God con. Ask Him to reveal to you just WHAT He thinks of YOUR Biblical Knowwledge!

Con-You have a list of quotes from atheist where they outright deny the existence of God. While many atheists are very stubborn

Another example of Dense: When the Jews denied Christ THEY were just being STUBBORN?. And God did "what" to those STUBBORN souls? But No, not to Atheist, He only did condemned to death millions of Jews over the last 2000 years for Rejecting Christ, But if the Atheist reject Christ .... smell what your shoveling Con.?

So when you REJECT Christ, your being .... stubborn is that how it works in this little shangrila of yours? To bad God does NOT see it that way!

Con-Apparently you think I'm ignorant of the word. That's fine if you believe that, however don't just say that, EXPLAIN WHY.

That YOU willfully go in defiance of the Holy Scriptures to PLAY Religion condemns you itself. Go then, continue in your violation of scripture, and profss yourself knowledgeable. You only demonstrate complete lack of Biblical understanding when you cite God, while you defy His word, and insist on performing your Religion. What difference is there between you and the Pharisee. They knew scripture better than you, they followed the commands of the Torah to the last dot, and they were as LOST as an unbeliever .... why? They never got BEYOND their Beliefs.

Tell me Con, are you so busy for the King that you demonstrate NO TIME FOR the King?


Con-"YOU are not a disciple little one." There are two definitions of a disciple, a personal follower of Jesus during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles (which is neither of us) and a follower or student of a teacher, leader, or philosopher. I am a follower and have studied Jesus, therefore I am classified as a disciple. Your feeble insult is easily refuted with an unbiblical definition.

Really? Where is that written in scripture Con? Or is it more the gospel accprding to Con.

Matthew 16:24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

There are the scripture on Followers Con and Disciples, lets see yours that says there are TWO types of Disciples? We would like to see that.

Con- This calls to mind something: you don't have to know every passage of scripture to be faithful to God's teachings.

Sooo you just gonna open up and the Bible just gonna poor right out of your disobedient self, when you've not read it, is that the plan Con?

Exactly WHAT is your definition of faithful Con, cause your statements indicate many things, but faithful is NOT one of them! Your just going around a legend in your own mind, and the scriptures do not work that way. God isn't asking, for you to serve Him, and OBEY Him He demands it, Anything else? And all you've got is a get put of Hell free card, you've no part in His inheritence, and few rewards IF any.

How sad Con, the entirety of your statements shows and extreme ignorance of the Bible, Your a Catholic, whose entire focus is on Religion, and what is really bad is that yourTraditionsstand in STARK contrast to Gods written Word. You will not be able to defend your adding to Gods word. You will not be able to defend personal interpretations of Gods word, when it expressly forbids this. No Con, your young, foolish and following in your own interpretations, which provides you excuses for failing to do the commands of God. And God is watching.


JimShady

Con

Note:

(I'm really glad you have more debate sessions to answer my questions. If you could get to them, that'd be really nice. I will admit you did better than last time, but at the end of this round, I would like you to answer a very important set of questions head on. If you do not, than you are without a doubt scared or have no response.)

Debate:

First off, the word damn is in the Bible exactly 15 times [1]. I thought you would know that, but I guess you are not as smart as you claim. You say, "your true colors are reveal themselves." You infer that I consider myself perfect and sinless, no I admit I cuss and sin, check out my rap battles. We are all sinners, me, you, everyone but Jesus and Mary.

I am aware of the subject. I find it laughable that you say I am not, as your entire Round 3 has no mention of" atheists should not be converted." Address the topic, you false prophet. That rhymes by the way. You imply that atheists are unredeemable, do you not? If that is not what you are implying, than you should be on my side and try to convert them. You say I am irrelevant but fail to explain why, this is why your debate rounds are weak and meaningless and so EASILY refuted.

I agree with you that pagans are capable of being converted. Why you brought up Acts 17:22 again puzzles me. I agree with you on that.

Here you say "I am not you. I use Gods word to preach Gods word, where as you use your own word " under some delusion that unbelievers NEED YOU to explain Gods words too, them. God does not need you to explain anything, He NEEDS YOU to testify of His working in YOUR LIFE, not your interpretations of His Word. So get it right!" I could easily say the same thing back to you. Your interpretation of the Bible is false, and thus you are working against God's will. But unlike you, I explain why you are incorrect. You only rebuke, explain none.

Again, I want to know your religion. Please tell me. From your constant use of the Bible and the Bible alone, you must be a Baptist. But please tell me your religion. If you ARE Catholic, you should know that there is an official Catechism of the Catholic Church that proves you wrong on atheists completely. If have already explained how, by the way. Here is the link [2]. It has been written by Bishops of the Catholic Church, and bishops have are descended from the Pope, who is a direct descendant of the apostle Peter, the first Pope. If that's not official, I don't know what is. And it is not an "addition" to the Bible. It is an explanation of the Catholic faith. If you are not a Catholic and deny the Catechism of the Catholic Church, know that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus right before his death and all other Christian denominations are descended from it.

You say "Sigh, I hate to repeat myself." Imagine how I feel, man.

The whole pagan-atheists thing is something I want to drop. I should have never brought it up, you are too weak minded to understand even a direct correlation. I've already explained it, do not think I'm giving up because I am beaten. I am giving up on that point because you are clueless.

I like your verses about not adding to the Bible. That is true, but I'm not doing that. I'm referring to something that is not the Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I agree with you, the Bible should remain unchanged. The catechism is not in the Bible (please answer my questions as I so graciously answer yours), by definition, the catechism is "a summary of the principles of Christian religion in the form of questions and answers, used for the instruction of Christians." It is a compliment to the Bible, not an extension.

Here you say "Really? Spamming? Sigh such ignorance of scripture is being demonstrated here." Calling me ignorant is your opinion, because, like always, you fail to explain yourself and instead demonstrate your own ignorance.

You then say "COULD YOU BE any denser! Okay I"ll will let the audience decide this: How can you ever HOPE to convert someone into something YOU are NOT! I cannot teach mechanics if I"ve no experience AS a mechanic." This applies primarily to yourself. You are going against the teachings of God in the Holy Bible by saying atheists are not to be converted.

You continue to deny that I am Jesus's disciple. Since when do you get to dictate who is Jesus's disciples? Are you his secretary? I have "picked up my cross" and followed Jesus, and it is Jesus's decision on whether I am a disciple or not, not your decision. You continue to judge me when God says "Do not judge, or you too will be judged" (Matthew 7:1). I realize I have been judging you this entire debate, and that's OK. I am willing to accept God's judgment of me (not yours), unlike you who, acting like a sinless brat.

Matthew 16:24 which you stand behind unwaveringly could just as easily be used on my side, as Jesus commands us to lead others to the faith, like the apostles. Atheists must indeed deny themselves and pick up their cross and we can help them do so. We are called to help one another, much like giving to the poor.

"As to believers, you do not have to be a scholar, you can even be brand new to Christianity. I ask only a desire to grow, quicker than you would normally." You, by your words, are obviously not a scholar. I do have a desire to grow in faith, that's why I accepted this debate. You, my friend, are the one as stubborn as an atheist. Luckily for you I am attempting to show you God's will.

Once again, I want to know your religion: either Catholic, the one true Christian religion, or Protestant. Protestants rely only on the Bible, which describes you perfectly. If you ARE Catholic, refer to this article [4] titled By the Bible Alone? It is No. 4 under the source list. It reads "Christian faith existed before the scriptures and was originally transmitted orally and through tradition." It also reads that "Scripture alone" was the battle cry of the Reformation. And yet you complain about 30,000 Christian sects. What a contradiction! Here is says "Unfortunately, Sola Scriptura or Bible alone is nowhere to be found in the Bible! If this were to be true, according to Sola Scriptura, then this statement would have to appear somewhere in the Bible in one form or another implicit or explicit. In fact it is [your belief] anti-Biblical!" Your reliance on the Bible alone is so flawed it is not even funny.

True, the Jews were constantly killed by fire in the Old Testament. You can also look at the Holocaust as there punishment. But according to you, I THOUGHT WE CAN"T COMPARE ATHEISTS AND PAGANS/JEWS. Either way, Jews and atheists are fully capable of being converted, and if there is a chance, we should do God's will and take it.

Here you say "To [sic] bad God does NOT see it that way!" God is infinitely above you in terms of intellect. You cannot know what he sees and what he knows, especially when your beliefs are wrong. That was one of the most prideful, Pharisee-like statements I have ever heard.

Here is your explanation to why I "am ignorant of the word of God": "That YOU willfully go in defiance of the Holy Scriptures to PLAY Religion condemns you itself." I am seriously, no joke, I am SERIOUSLY shaking my head in disbelief at this moment. Your "explanation" to my scripture siting is the worst thing in the history of the world. It's basically like saying "You are so stupid because you are wrong in what you say." I don't think you could be any more unclear and vague. Your debate tactics absolutely suck.

Here you go again: "Really? Where is that written in scripture Con? Or is it more the gospel according to Con." My answer to you is: find scripture that specifically states that you, Follower of Christ, are correct. Good luck finding that, because it is not there. The Bible does not answer everything, Catholics also rely on tradition and what God teaches us outside of the good book.

Right here, you say "Sooo you just gonna open up and the Bible just gonna poor right out of your disobedient self, when you've not read it, is that the plan Con?" You have no knowledge if I read the Bible or not. You do not have to believe me, but I in fact do.

You have asked for my definition of faithful, and I'll give it to you: to be obedient to God's word and to follow him and believe in him. I do all 3 of these things, You just disagree with my argument. That's fine, but like I said, you are not the judge.

Your final paragraph is about my ignorance of the Bible again. Blah blah blah.... it's all good! Whenever you say that, I laugh, because it is all just talk, you never back it up. Where does it say that the Bible is not up to interpretation in the Bible? Show me a passage, if you can. The Catholic religion says it can be interpreted, again I ask for your religion.

Question Time:

In your next round, I beg of you, answer all the questions I have listed below. I have done my best to answer all of yours, now you must do the same for me. I will reiterate it: PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS. IF YOU DO NOT, I TAKE IT THAT YOU ARE SCARED TO AND HAVE NO ANSWER.

1.What Christian religion are you?
2.Answer Luke 15:7, Luke 10:37, and 1 Timothy 2:4. They are Biblical verses that explain my debate so well compared to your verses, and so far you have completely ignored them.
3.What religion would you be if Apostles and Jesus did not convert people to Christianity?
4.Multiple atheists have been converted, how do you call this a waste of time?
5.If atheists still don't convert, then don't we at least benefit from trying to convert them by praying to God?

Please explain your answer, do not just say "You are wrong" like usual.

Sources:

1.http://ilxor.com...
2.http://www.usccb.org...
3.https://www.google.com...
4.http://www.aboutcatholics.com...
Debate Round No. 3
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

I say the following yet not I but God, because it is not JUST YOU I hope to instruct.

That you came to God by a denomination is not the problem, that you remain in a denominational mentality is counterproductive, and it is this that hinders you. To demonstrate this you need ask yourself one question and answer it honestly?

When is it okay to be disobedient to scriptures of God?

Depending on your answer you learn or fail to learn. God doesn’t speak to closed minds regardless of your denomination. You fail to grasp spiritually discerned things because you live in a denomination that purposefully violates scripture, having made excuses to relieve their conscious, but violate them nonetheless. They venerate people (wrong), they venerate objects (wrong), they speak lies (wrong). They worship the doctrines of Men (wrong).

They busy themselves quoting MEN instead of God! You have witnessed this personally, but because the Spirit of God is kept under tight reign, you never HEAR you’re being taught the words of MEN and NOT God …. You just go along in your little denomination thinking it will save you. It won’t. This is to all denominations not just yours. How many times have you heard the word of God only to have it perverted immediately by the quotes of simple wisdom of MEN?

I am of Apollos, you say, another I am of Paul, still another I am of Peter, I am of Wesley, all of you wrong ….. WE ARE OF God, there can be no other. Continue following men called saints, you will get nowhere, NONE of them paid for the remission of your sins, and none can save you except Christ and Him you dishonor by your actions.

1 Corinthians 3:4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere human beings?

Whom do you follow? What human have you tossed Christ aside for? Is it a wonder you have no spiritual discernment?

Repent or Not as you wish.

In all these things denominations fall short. Thing is, the Bible denounce all these things but with a simple excuse, denominations justify the lie and in so doing sacrifice relationship with their creator. So sad, Sad because it is all there in the scriptures, in black and white, yet just as well been written by invisible ink, as the children of God refuse to see, yet proclaim an inheritance MANY will never see. Mores the pity, yet I (not God) at times wonder, was it not Gods will? Man cannot overpower the will of God …. So is it Gods will, that only a remnant shall inherit Crowns, Kingship?

Hmm, I speak of Thrones not of reward. As I have said …. It is all there, in the scriptures but? Nope …. The largest part of Christendom appears …. Shall we say Oblivious? Take heed, Read and go to God ask for clarification of this scripture;

Revelation 3:21 ”To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”

Overcome what? Let us bear witness to what it cannot mean? Salvation! Christ paid the FULL price of salvation, so this scripture cannot mean salvation, as God Himself readily stated that those given Him He has not lost 1. Here;

John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

Okay sooo That’s pretty clear! So salvation, Check present and accounted for. So what ever does it mean … to them that overcome will I GRANT to sit with me? Soooo, there will clearly be those who will NOT sit with Him in His throne then? (are we learning yet?) …. To those who overcome what then? Denominations! Their OWN wills, Their OWN ways.

WHAT????? You mean the right to sit on Gods Throne ISN’T FREE …. GASP!!!!!!! That’s right children, be bad and your smoked salmon (1 Corinthians 3:13-15), overcome some, your rewarded …BUT to SIT on a Throne, you MUST OVERCOME like whom? Does it say like saint this or that? Does it say Like Paul, Peter, John ….. NO! LIKE Him? And Christ overcame what? THE WORLD. Sigh, so much to do, so Little time left!

Con-First off, the word damn is in the Bible exactly 15 times [1]. I thought you would know that

You know JimShady, if you would just step aside forsaking all others and turn you teaching to God alone, in 1 year you would know more than a person coming out of seminary. The only thing that’s stops your ability to understand is you?

For example … something soooo simple, you cannot even understanding. Damn is used in scripture to denote eternal punishment. Never anger and frustration. Congratulations you just told people a Lie that God cussed in scripture, a thing everyone knows is untrue? Can you begin to see “why” your thoughts are suspect?

You must never pervert the word of God, not even to save yourself!

Do you now see “why” you fail to see the truths of God? If you cannot see something that small, how could you possibly understand the greater things?

Con-I am aware of the subject. I find it laughable that you say I am not.

Sigh, from the frying pan into the fire, first you pervert Gods word now you lie.? Shame on you. Everyone noted that you said I told you Atheist were unredeemable. I showed you I said should not attempt to “be” converted, I never implied they could not be, you said that. I said they must go to God themselves asking forgiveness, THEN it would be up to God. But like the entire debate, your so filled with what you think that you can’t grasp the simplest points of scripture … like damn for example.

Con-Again, I want to know your religion. Please tell me. From your constant use of the Bible and the Bible alone, you must be a Baptist. But please tell me your religion. If you ARE Catholic, you should know that there is an official Catechism of the Catholic Church that proves you wrong on atheists completely.

This IS an indictment of the Catholic faith BY a Catholic .... there need be no further clarification required, Like the Jehovah's witness and the Mormons you go OUTSIDE the Bible for your learning. The ONLY THING that IS SAVING Catholics is that THEY BELIEVE IN Christ Jesus .... they IGNORE Him of course and His word, But God did only require your true belief in Him to BE SAVED. So Catholics, congratulations for you the fix is in .... Get out of Hell Free, "Check" But no thrones for you, at least not till , well you know.

Con- If have already explained how, by the way. Here is the link (removed) It has been written by Bishops of the Catholic Church, and bishops have are descended from the Pope, who is a direct descendant of the apostle Peter

Uhhhh and that the popes are not Jewish doesn't bother you? Cause everyone KNOWS that Peter WAS A JEW! Went to ancestry.com did they? Could you be any more gullible? Peter WAS NOT ITALIAN! He was JEWISH!

Sigh!

Con- The whole pagan-atheists thing is something I want to drop.

Consider it done but …. Hehe I’m not the one who CLAIMS the prophets were CUSSING in Bible text. Everybody knows who’s clueless here.

BUT it’s all there in the Bible a thing you Catholics appear NOT to read. You spend all your time in the Catholic version of the Watchtower.

And I am also NOT the one trying to pass off forbidden false doctrines to an unsuspecting crowd. The popes where NOT present in Gods day, Peter flatly DENIED Christ and had to be restored BECAUSE he LOST his apostleship with his rejection of Christ.

I know I know you want proof …. vcause your catechism left that out. I don’t know why you just make excuses to deny truth …. BUT okay, I suppose you deserve the truth, so;

Mark 16:7 The Resurrection

…6 But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here! See the place where they laid Him. 7 But go, TELL HIS DISCIPLES and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see Him, just as He told you.”

Peter lost his discipleship by rejecting Christ. Make whatever excuses you want, there is NO denying this but to CHOOSE blindness to the truth! Christ Himself said the disciples, deliberately LEAVING Peter out, because he was no longer an apostle …. Christ had to RESTORE Peter! Hence ……. Tell the Disciples ….. AND Peter.

Jesus Reinstates Peter

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” 16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18

Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

Con-I like your verses about not adding to the Bible. That is true, but


1.What Christian religion are you? I am not religious YOU are!

2.Answer Luke 15:7, Luke 10:37, and 1 Timothy 2:4. They are Biblical verses that explain my debate so well compared to your verses, and so far you have completely ignored them. You HAVE NO spiritual insight so you remain ignored!

because you do NOT know the difference between Atheist and unbelievers is "WHY" these scriptures are being used without your understanding and OUT of context!

3.What religion would you be if Apostles and Jesus did not convert people to Christianity? Even the Apostles would be upset with this question As the Spirit of God converts, NOT MAN! You won't understand this but oh well, your loss. By the way, neither of THEM WERE Religious ... you are! Question #4 Is awaste of time! I've explained it already, believe, don't as you wish,

I'll answer question 4 and 5 in comments as I've no more room.






JimShady

Con

To start this round off, I want to thank the Pro for answering my questions appropriately. Now, back to the debate.

You have made it clear that you are a non-denominational Christian, not a Catholic. More specifically, you state that you are not religious, so I assume you are, as your name states, a "follower of Christ." This clears up a lot of what you are trying to pass on to me, so I wish you would've stated this before hand. Unfortunately, this is a contradiction of the Merriam Webster dictionary definition of Christianity: "the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies" [1]. If you do not agree with this definition, namely, "the religion" part, than what exactly is Christianity? A cult? A club? No, it is a religion, and therefore one who follows it must be considered "religious". I also find it queer that the Pro says he is not religious, yet he put this debate under the category of "Religion."

You are non-denominational, which means you are "not restricted to any particular or specific religious denomination." [2] Therefore you can choose the Bible and the Bible alone if you want and say that anything else is false doctrine. But if you live by the Bible alone, then you should just say "read the Bible", because you defending the Bible is technically false doctrine (at least according to your definition.)

Here you say "When is it okay to be disobedient to scripture of God?" Never, but I never said it was okay. I have admitted that I have been disobedient, I didn't say it was right.

Another very humorous contradiction of yours is when you say I continue to follow Saints. I think you confuse following with worshipping. I honor them, just as I honor you for being a one of Jesus's followers. I do NOT follow you, though. But the contradiction that confuses me greatly is when you quote 1 Corinthians 3:4 saying how you shouldn't follow Paul... if that's the case, then why do you have a picture of Paul as your avatar, not Jesus? The answer is because you honor but do not worship. The same is with me, although you claim otherwise.

Right now, the argument over non-denominational and Catholicism is not the main topic of the debate. I intend to challenge you on it in a different debate, but not right now. I will say again though that the Catholic Church was founded in 33 A.D. by Jesus on the Last Supper, where he instituted the Eucharist and commanded us to do the same in remembrance of him. Catholics continue this Sacrament of Jesus, as did all twelve apostles who spread Catholicism around the world. Bishops of the Catholic Church can be traced directly back to the original 12 Apostles. Also, what church do you think Jesus speaks of in Matthew 16: 18? "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." Jesus did establish the church with Peter as its first leader (pope), and did not intend for Christians to be non-denominational, clearly stated by the Bible. But enough of that now, I need to get back to the topic at hand, that will be for later.

The Bible does denounce denominations as you proclaim. However, it supports Judaism which was founded by God the father through the Old Testament and it supports Catholicism, the "New Covenant" founded by Jesus in the New Testament.

Salvation is definitely attainable by every person whoever existed, however some will not attain it. Atheists who deny God's existence can be saved but usually decline it (But since there is still a chance, we must at least try.) However, you claim that you are saved alone just by believing in God. But I quote, and you have probably heard this many times, James 2:26, "Faith without works is dead." You claim that anyone will get into Heaven by believing in God. Yet even the Devil believes in God... but is he in Heaven? Sinners believe in God, but unless they repent and do good, they will go to Hell. You claim special privileges, a throne for those who denounce denominations. You site Revelation 3:21 as proof of this, but does is read ""To him that overcometh denominations will I grant to sit with me in my throne" or "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne?" You believe in the Bible alone, yet is does not answer your points. What the Bible means to overcome is sin, but of course, interpret it how you want! Here you say "BUT to SIT on a Throne, you MUST OVERCOME like whom? Does it say like saint this or that? Does it say Like Paul, Peter, John ".. NO! LIKE Him? And Christ overcame what? THE WORLD. Sigh, so much to do, so Little time left!" According to your standards, first of all, that's false doctrine that you are teaching and you are implying that the Bible says overcome the world. Your entire debate is a huge contradiction and is really hard to debate because of that.

"Damn is used in scripture to denote eternal punishment. Never anger and frustration" I concede defeat on this point (but this point alone, which has almost no pertinence to the debate." I realized it when I said it, but I was counting on you ignoring or skipping over it like you usually do to my points. I apologize for this statement, I know the difference in context between mine and the Bible's use of the word "damn". I should've not brought that up. It was evident to me of course, I don't know why I said it.

But you caught me ONE fault while I have caught you on multiple. Let's get back to those. Another massive, unexplainable contradiction on your part is that earlier in your last debate round, you stated "God doesn"t speak to closed minds regardless of your denomination." And yet you are arguing that the only way atheists can be saved is by God alone, no human intervention. But I have quoted you in which you state that atheists, who are close minded, can apparently not be saved in any way. Later on you state "I never implied they [atheists] could not be [converted], you said that." Yes, but I have CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED that you do in fact imply that atheists are unable to be converted! You say atheists are close minded, and then say "God doesn"t speak to closed minds"!!! It is here where you are wrong. The simple fact is that even closed minds are capable of being saved by God, and if need be by human intervention. Just a massive blunder on your part, and this one, unlike the damn error on my part, actually pertains to the debate.

You continue on that Catholics are saved, but cannot attain thrones. Refer to my Round 4 paragraph 8.

Wow, hear you state "Uhhhh and that the popes are not Jewish doesn't bother you? Cause everyone KNOWS that Peter WAS A JEW! Went to ancestry.com did they? Could you be any more gullible? Peter WAS NOT ITALIAN! He was JEWISH!"...sigh... if you were Catholic, you would know that not all popes are Italian. The pope before our current on was German. There have been African, Dutch, French, Polish, Italian (Yes, there has) but also Syrian, English, and much more races of popes. Although the first few were Jewish, race is no factor in who is pope. Here is a full list of popes, and you'll notice they descend from Peter, Jesus's apostle [3].

You say "Hehe I"m not the one who CLAIMS the prophets were CUSSING in Bible text. Everybody knows who"s clueless here." Once again, my bad, but I was not clueless, I knew it could be easily refuted and should've not brought it up.

Here you go again "And I am also NOT the one trying to pass off forbidden false doctrines to an unsuspecting crowd." According to you, yes, you are with this debate.

Another quote of yours: "The popes where NOT present in Gods day." Yet Peter was a pope and was given leadership of the Catholic Church by Jesus in Matthew 16:18.

Pro- "I don"t know why you just make excuses to deny truth." Please show me one of my excuses, if you can. All I do is give rebuttals to your supposed false doctrine, not excuses. And yes, I am fully aware of Peter's denying and then redemption. I have no idea why you even brought that up though.

Pro- "Con-I like your verses about not adding to the Bible. That is true, but" ...I am confused here.

Now rebuttals to my questions.

1. good job.
2. awful job, again you have failed to explain yourself because you CAN'T explain yourself.
3. You say "By the way, neither of THEM WERE Religious" Completely false, they were both Jews and Christians, which are religions.
4. You continue to claim that a non-believer and an Atheist are different, but by Merriam Webster definition an Atheist is "a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods" [4] Notice the word disbelief, basically the same thing as non-believers. You claim atheists are incapable of being penetrated, and yet we know this is false because, again, look at my list. You are completely blind on this subject.
5.Pro- "What I have been saying is do not spend countless hours debating those who cannot be saved with religious words. Seek those who search." I have heard what you are saying, and I disagree with it. You have dodged the question though, is the prayer not beneficial to your prayer life?

Your last paragraph is by far the strongest part of your whole debate because you have relied on the intellect God has given you and not relied on Bible verses that do nothing for your argument (with an exception for a few). While your scenario displays strong logic, it fails to comply with your point of view. I have already demonstrated that you believe atheists (the dead) are un-savable (see my tenth paragraph of this round). And-------

Since you resorted using the comment section for further use of characters, I'll finish my points on there as well.

Sources:
1. https://www.merriam-webster.com...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org...
3.https://en.wikipedia.org...
4.https://www.merriam-webster.com...
Debate Round No. 4
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

As you've done nothing but ramble about what Mankind says ABOUT the Bible and what your denominational literature tells you, YOU should think, and as you have no real questions for me that you are capabe of understanding, Our time together has come to an end I do believe.

You see the false doctrines of your denomination and denominations in general have corrupted the word of God, the only thing different is the point of salvation?

Beyond that I am content to allow you to find out from God in person. It would be moot to continue to endeaver to explain that which one has no posession of nor ability to OBTAIN possession of THe Holy Spirits leading. Don't get me wrong, I do not say you do not have Him?, as by all evidence He certainly is being held hostage BY you. but as all Believers of God know it is critical and crucial to Biblical understanding .... hence use of the word Damn ... and you complete INABILITY to UNDERSTAND it!

In any case should you ever decide to loose your captive and finally ALLOW the Spirit of God a higher position than your presently willing to extend to Him. Drop me a line.

In closing it was great talking with you. Should you have a Biblical question, rather than questions based on Mans beliefs and mans knowledge, I certainly do avail myself to you otherwise humanistic questions require humanistic answers, and those hold no interest to me whatever but certainly may be found in the fictions, myths and legends section of your local library.

I'm here for Biblical questions, otherwise?

bye I must prepare for another debate.

JimShady

Con

It is round 5, and I'm half glad because this discussion in which you show no open mindedness to will be over, but also I am sad it's over because I cannot continue to try and convince you.

Like his very first rounds, the Pro, aka Follower of Christ, suffers from the same disorder: failure to acknowledge my arguments, let alone try to explain why they are wrong. As an exception, he did well in Round 4, but in Round 5, it seems he has given up.

He completely ignores my arguments on Catholisism, the sameness of a non-believer and an Atheist, his obvious point of view that atheists are un-saveable completely. These are only 3 topics, there are many more in which he falls flat. There are two reasons why he does this: either he skips over what I say, or he has no come-back. He makes excuses my saying I'm just "ignorant". He explains nothing.

Here, Pro states "hence use of the word Damn... and you [sic] complete INABILITY to UNDERSTAND it!" I do understand, I understood right from the get-go, and I have apologized. Only reason Pro brings this up again is because it was his only success in this debate and he likes to dwell on it.

I will not have any Biblical questions, and if I do, I will definitely not go to you. You have demonstrated how badly you are at reading the scriptures (my explanations are in above rounds). I will debate you on scripture alone later, I have some real deadly debate tactics and Biblical proof that you are wrong.

As far as the debate topic, which we have strayed far from, I must point out one more of your contradictions, the finale of your grand total. You have been trying to convert me to your side this while time, but have deduced that it is "moot to continue to endeaver [sic] to explain that which one has no possession of nor ability to OBTAIN... The Holy Spirit". And yet, you have attempted to convert me to your side. The whole point of this debate is converting atheists is useless. Tell me then- why did you attempt to convert me to your side (which is wrong.)? If you truly believed what you preached, you would have forfeited immediately. Nevertheless, I think we have both benefited from this debate. It was not a waste of time, at least we have more knowledge of the scriptures.

Conclusion:

In conclusion, my opponent might have knowledge of what the scriptures say, but he can not apply them to his or others life. His debating tactics are very weak and un-courteous because he fails to acknowledge my points and questions while I have answered his. If this was quote the Bible competition, you would win. But it is not, it is a debate, and you fail to engage in debate.

Nevertheless, I will end with a Bible quote since you love them (not debate) and them alone:
"Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" -Acts 2:38, in which Peter is converting sinners, God's will.

End note:

Pro: "bye I must prepare for another debate."
You should've prepared for this one.
Debate Round No. 5
86 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
I thought you "will not be back!" Now THAT was a lie. Please don't respond further unless you answer my questions. Otherwise you are wasting my time with your feeble insults.

Also, your latest comment means nothing, as I leave the judging to the Lord. You attempt to judge souls yourself. So, according to Scripture, "you yourself will be judged."

Again, get behind me, Satan's pawn.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 9 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Let it be as YOU will.
I of course am content to let the Lord, judge us on this matter. Bye :)
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
You have failed to answer my questions, so I will count that as a cowardly concession on your part.

I've demonstrated that I am far more Biblically literate, logical, knowledgeable in English language, and faithful to God's word then you are, and I trust that the readers of this comment debate and God himself will see that.

Throughout this debate, you who have been a Pharisee, a hypocrite, claiming to know the ways of God and to be his servant, while in reality you are crucifying him with your words. Although have knowledge of the scriptures, you have no wisdom of them. You are misguided, and thus you misguide others, and thus I hope God judges you accordingly.

"I could have helped you."

Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 9 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
To bad Shady;
What you will and will "Not" accept, is why you have no truth in you. Suffice it to say, your carnality as a Christian has destroyed any hope of you learning anything at all.

As has been established at onset is that you are completely worldly, Biblically illiterate, spiritually bankrupt, and where you fall in rewards is uncertain, but inheritance is well beyond your reach, as proven by your own Words ...(also, if the only words that count are scripture,)

That a professed Christian, one who professes to Serve God, that professes that HIS denomination IS the true Faith then blantantly ADMIT to the world HIS INSISTENCE that " the SCRIPTURE of God IS NOT the ONLY THING THAT COUNTS "

Hahaha .... my goodness you ... it is clear that your corruption is beyond, me ... only God can help you at this point. Course you ARE saved so I personally see NO reason for God to do anything further. The choices were yours, they corruption is yours, the choice to remain closed minded is yours.

Let it be as you will. Continue in your violations, and recieve its consequence. I tried. Go on listening to the God of self and your self proclaimed denominational delusions.
To bad Shady my man. I could have helped you. Now I must turn my back on you ...
Pity really! I will Not be back!
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
Also, I want to challenge you to a formal debate on whether or not the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by God. We will see what people think, and you will be exposed to your misunderstandings. There is reason why your debate ratio of wins to losses is very low.

It is because you are wrong, and God has not opened your eyes.
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
Summary:

You refuse the accepted definition of a lie, deny Webster's dictionary, and thus discredit your use of English. I have responded to your verses, and you simply restate your claim without giving me a response to my argument.

Also, you backed away from my questions of whether you break the bread and drink the blood or not.

1 Kings 8:39
John 6 53-55
John 21: 15-17
Genesis 14:17

You also failed to answer these verses (the list has grown). Also, you failed to recognize that the Bible was first compiled by the Catholic Church in 397 AD at Carthage, the same Bible you read. Answer this question and verses in your response.

I will not respond to any of your comments unless you answer these, and then I will respond. No response= you are beaten.
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
"Why else would you worship relics and old bones, like some witch doctor in tanzania, when scripture expressly forbids it."

Do not speak of that which you know nothing of. We do not worship them, we honor them.

Defend your belief in light of ALL these violations of ACTUAL SCRIPTURE!

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Matt. 28:19-20)

Jesus didn"t tell the apostles to write down everything he had taught them. He simply commanded them to teach it. Much of this teaching later made its way into Sacred Scripture, but every bit of it was and still is considered Sacred Tradition.
https://www.catholic.com...

"Can"t [sic] call yourself Holy, and commit sacrilege (violate scripture with impiety) the whole time!"
So, why do you call yourself holy?

"Scriptures were translated from languages ... not rewritten."
Multiple denominations have edited the Bible to their own liking, but the Catholic Church compiled the original Bible.
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
Do you "Not" hold high relics" of the prophets and the ancient times ... things you believe belonged to prophets, all expressly forbidden, as evidenced by the destruction of the Serpent of Moses, by the prophet Hezekiah, BECAUSE believers WERE worshipping them, and or burning incense to it?

"How do you justify your relics, worship, and or burning of incense to them?" OK... we have relics of followers of God, not relics of demon worshippers and false Gods. We do not worship relics, and, again, the Israelites burned incense to God and he enjoyed it. Abel burned a calf to god and he enjoyed it. God likes it as evidenced by scripture.

Deuteronomy 33:10
"They shall teach Your ordinances to Jacob, And Your law to Israel They shall put incense before You, And whole burnt offerings on Your altar.

Numbers 4:16
"The responsibility of Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest is the oil for the light and the fragrant incense and the continual grain offering and the anointing oil--the responsibility of all the tabernacle and of all that is in it, with the sanctuary and its furnishings."

Notice the word tabernacle, the same thing Catholics have. Where is your tabernacle?

" show scripture instructing you to conduct yourself in this manner. Please. I "ll [sic] be waiting."
Ha, I just did!

"History remarks a great deal of the Catholics during the inquisition, and throught [sic]the middle ages in general. Proud of that are you?" No, as I said, the Catholic Church is not perfect. What I am proud of is how much is has spread the faith since Jesus' Ascension into heaven. The Apostles were the early bishops of the Catholic Church.

The word "Catholic" was first used by Saint Ignatius of Antioch in 101 AD:
"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of John the Apostle, who was the disciple of Jesus. As you can see, Jesus found
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
Continued:

"All lies, misinterpretation after misinterpretation. You can prove NONE of it by scripture." LOL, and you can disprove none of it by Scripture! In fact, you can disprove none of it even just by yourself! What a lame comeback, dude!

"Christ ALONE is the head and of the Church" Thanks for that concession. It's nice to see you admit Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church!

You quote: Ephesians 3:12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. You then say "We require no priest to confess too, we go straight to God Himself. Where yours even remotely correct, would you violate willfully scripture after scripture?"

Jesus speaks through the priest. When we go to confession, we are actually talking to Jesus, not the priest. Simple as that.

I love how you keep on bringing up new topics because I defeat you in other ones (you skip a lot of what I say because more than likely you cannot defend yourself). Bring up all the topics you want, you are easy.

"you pray to dead people"
I think you are mistaking our prayer with consulting mediums. We don't conjure up the spirits of the dead like Saul did, we simply pray to them. In fact, even Jesus did this.

Luke 9:29-31:
And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Surely something that Jesus does is OK, right?

"name the saint WHO CAN SAVE YOU, shady? Name the Saint who can grant your prayers, shady? Show the scripture that DIRECTS YOU to pray to Saints at ALL shady ..... not your words ... not commentaries, not priests words , Gods WORD."

We never claim that a saint can save us, and prayers granted through their intercession are from God's source. I can answer stuff like this all day. Making up false claims about are religion is very eas
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
Know your history. None of your verses saying anything about the artifacts of saints. In fact, these idols that they were burning incense to and sacrificing too were false Gods and demons. There is a clear difference. Also, they worshipped the actual idols. Christians use them as representations of God and saints, not as the actual thing. Do not diss the Catholic Church if you know little about it.

Here is my answer to relics
"People brought to [Jesus] all who were sick and begged him that they might only touch the tassel on his cloak, and as many as touched it were healed" (Mt 14:35-36; cf. Mk 6:56; Lk 8:43-44).

"because salvation is a free gift .... to all 43,000 believers"
I think you made a mistake here, there is well over 43,000 Christians... maybe you mean denominations. However, I forgive this, it is not a lie.... it is a simple, unintentional mistake, and therefore not a lie. However, in your eyes, it would be a lie. So, according to your standards, you must admit you have lied.

You say "End of subject!"

Oh, you KNOW someone is losing a debate when they say end of subject in an attempt to close out any opposition, LOLLLLLLL!!!!

1 Corinthians 3: 14. I have already offered my response to this. You plainly rejected it and just reassert it without any follow-up argument. This is not a debate, it's merely me making arguments and you rambling repetitiously.

"1 Corinthians 3: 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." This person suffers LOSS and IS ONLY saved from HELL. NO REWARD, no throne, no inheritance. Inheritence is for the Son"s of God. Tell me Shady ... show me the SCRIPTURE that grants you Sonship ... FREE?"

Your bubble with which you live in is impermeable. Consult a theologian who understands the Bible, obviously you don't. But of course- you don't accept English words, how could you understand it? (reread my response and refute it, don't just restate yourself.)
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Mharman 1 year ago
Mharman
FollowerofChrist1955JimShadyTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I vote con because con listed several Bible verses in which Jesus specifically commands us to go out and convert people to Christ. Pro misinterpreted all of the verses he used and only used selected parts of his verses, ignoring the rest of the verse.