The Instigator
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Siladheil
Con (against)
Winning
92 Points

Atheistic Military Men are Proud Brave Fools if not obedient cowardlly fools, and they can be mean.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 19 votes the winner is...
Siladheil
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/15/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 8,162 times Debate No: 58989
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (335)
Votes (19)

 

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Opening round for acceptance with or without an argument from my opponent.

Rules.......No vulgarity or sexually explicit comments. Using the word "Hell" as anything other than a noun which describes a literal place of fiery torment in this debate will be considered vulgarity. Cursing in this debate will be considered vulgarity. Violations of these rules are bad conduct and votes must agree.

This is expected to be a heated debate between manly men (unless my opponent is a coward or effeminate, which I don't think he is), and the assertion of the title calling atheists "fools" should not affect conduct points against me since it is the topic of the debate. My opponent by agreeing to accept this challenge agrees to follow these rules and is free to call me a fool without fear of loss of conduct points. He may also call me proud and brave. Name calling outside of these boundaries should be considered for bad conduct and may result in loss of conduct points. Calling my opponent corrupt or a sinner should not be considered bad conduct as long as I call myself corrupt or a sinner at the same time.
The only assertion I am arguing in this debate is that atheists are fools. I specified atheistic military men in hope of provoking my opponent to argue. My opponents military service is highly respected and appreciated, no derogatory comments against military service are allowed in this debate or in the comments. I cannot control the comments, but any derogatory comments against military service will be reported as insulting and harassing. If you love your freedom, thank a veteran. "Thus be it ever when free men shall stand, between their loved homes and the war's desolation" I respectfully issue this challenge. Psalm 14:1
Siladheil

Con

I accept your debate and the BOP on this topic eagerly. Best of luck to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 1
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Ok, thank you, sir, for accepting this challenge.

To start with, I want to say I'm sure my opponent is wise by all worldly standards. Jesus Himself referred to unbelievers as wiser than the children of light (believers) because unbelievers are adept at survival while those who believe they have eternal life can tend to take survival for granted too much. This causes them to lose their fighting edge and act lazily when time is so short and the battle for men's souls is so fierce. The topic of this debate is about one's heart-attitude toward God, implying a wise man can be a fool.
The reason the Bible calls atheists fools (Psalm 14:1) is simple......saying there is no God cannot dispel God, and God can't be happy with people who are trying to dispel them from their thoughts and lives. God will always be against people who are against Him, and it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of The Living God. If I am an enemy combatant, and I walk around in front of my opponent saying my opponent is not there and not even bothering to aim my weapon at him because I am convincing myself that he is not there, my opponent would probably laugh at me, or chuckle a few times, and then eliminate me from any further potential to harm anybody or anything he is protecting. I think it's safe to say God is not different in this. He really does not want to eliminate anybody from life, but if they don't surrender to Him, what choice does He have? The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.
Siladheil

Con

To begin, I'd like to post the definiton of fool.
"noun
1.
a silly or stupid person; a person who lacks judgment or sense.
2.
a professional jester, formerly kept by a person of royal or noble rank for amusement: the court fool.
3.
a person who has been tricked or deceived into appearing or acting silly or stupid: to make a fool of someone.
4.
an ardent enthusiast who cannot resist an opportunity to indulge an enthusiasm (usually preceded by a present participle): He's just a dancing fool.
5.
a weak-minded or idiotic person." [1]

We will ignore the second, third, and fourth definiton, as they do not pertain to the context of this debate, however the first and fifth do.

To take a little piece of the Bible Verse wouldn't do said verse justice, therefore I will post the verse in its completeness and discuss the complete verse.

"The fool[a] says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good." [2]

According to the first quote, a foolish person is one who is silly, stupid, or lacks any sort of common sense. And the second quote leads those who read it to believe that fools are immoral or evil in nature. I will discuss as to why atheists in general do not fall into either one of those categories.

According to an article written on 20130912 [3] studies began in 1921 where the scientists took a rather large test group of 1,500 children with I.Q. scores of 135 or higher and followed them throughout their lives to determine how many followed a religious path or tended to believe that there were no gods, nor religion that was true. They took the facts, laid them out for themselves and decided that religion wasn't a good choice for them.

There are many atheists who are known for amazing works of science and technology [4].

By disproving that all atheists are silly, stupid, or lack common sense, I have fulfilled my BOF for the first type of fool.

Onto the second type of fool. The type that lacks morals or is inherently evil in nature. (I'm running out of space, I'll keep this short)

Atheists are not inherently immoral or even evil. There are people all across the globe who are of all different religions or lack thereof and backgrounds who have done evil unspeakable things. To complete the BOP all I need to do is show that there are good Atheists in the world. I will show this by directing your attention to link #4 and with a short story.

When I was a child of 12 years old I found a purse on the sidewalk of my small little town. I instantly opened up the wallet and saw approximately $400. I searched the rest of the day to return the wallet.



[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...
[2] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[3] http://www.independent.co.uk...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Kudos to my opponent for a fine and civil debate.

After my opponents long list of definitions for the word "fool", and the lengthy explanations of intelligent behaviour and inventions of very smart people, and his impressive story of personal heroism simply for the principal of doing the right thing in returning a person's valuable belongings, I have to ask if my opponent read the first paragraph of my Round 2 argument. I thought I clearly recognized my opponent's wisdom as well as the wisdom of many others who do not believe in God. The debate is not about wise living or wise behaviour in the world, and I personally do not need the word "fool" defined for me. The debate is about the attitude of one's heart toward God. No matter how intelligent, wise, or well mannered and well behaved a person is, if that person says in his heart "There is no God", that person is a fool.

I guess my opponent did not understand my illustration of a fool on the battlefield, so I will use the same illustration with some slight changes which do not change the moral of the story. The slightly edited version of the Round 2 story is this:

An enemy combatant is stomping around bragging about how brave, strong, and smart he is, unaware that a Marine is fully camouflaged and invisible in the surroundings even though the marine is close enough to the enemy combatant to quickly and easily disable the enemy combatant. As the unaware man boasts of how brave, strong, and smart he is, the hidden Marine chuckles to himself seeing how foolish this man is behaving. Surely he had been warned that Marines were in the area, but he didn't see any so he felt like blowing off some steam to ease his stress. The Marine could easily take the man out and then disappear, but he chooses to wait....the guy is funny after all, completely unaware that a Marine who he is making fun of and claiming victory over is near enough to take him down in a heartbeat. This is the picture of a fool and a Marine, and it can well be applied to the atheist and God.

God really does not want to deny life from the atheist........to God, the atheist is a bit funny though it does make God angry to watch the atheist going around saying God is not there and insulting God. God knows the atheist will have to face Him soon, one way or another, and no matter how smart, wise, well mannered, or honorably behaving the atheist is, in God's sight he is a fool. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of The Living God. This is why the Bible says "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom". The combatant in the above story is clearly a fool, but he may also have been extremely intelligent and accomplished by all worldly standards. The debate is about the attitude of the heart toward God, not the degree of intelligence, skill, or accomplishment of an individual. It does not take a lot of Bible verses to show the atheist is a fool.....it only takes common sense.
Siladheil

Con

I believe my opponent failed to read that bible verse in its entirety. I will post it again for clarification.

"The fool[a] says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good."

You cannot pick and choose what you'd like from the bible to make it work for what you want. Either you follow all of it, or you follow none of it, else you're a hyprocrite.

As for me, I choose not to live in a time where if your wife cheats on you, you can take her into your front yard and stone her to death. I have fulfilled my BOP by citing examples of some non-foolish Atheists. I have also fulfilled my BOP on the bible quote by giving examples of Atheists aren't inherently evil or vile, and I've posted links to atheists who have done good things for the world and their individual countries.

Although PROs short stories are true, they do not pertain to this debate.
Debate Round No. 3
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Again, kudos to my opponent for a honorable, reasonable, respectful and civil debate.


First, I want to point out that my illustration of a proud, brave, enemy combatant parading around boastfully in front of a well camouflaged Marine is entirely relevant to this debate. My opponent seems to be trying to ignore the illustration by calling it irrelevant.

The fact that we cannot see God with our eyes does not mean He is not there. It is not wise to parade around in front of God saying how good we are and what great things we have done while we say in our hearts that God is not there only because we cannot see Him with our eyes. How long will it be before His tolerance of the unbeliever or his amusement with the unbelievers ignorance gives way to His anger when all He wants is for the unbeliever to believe and surrender to Him so He can show His mercy and let the former unbeliever have eternal life?

In this paragraph, I hinted at my opponents key objection which is his assertion that some or many atheists are not corrupt and their deeds are not vile and they have not done abominable iniquities. This is going to be a hard pill to swallow, and it probably will cost me the debate though it is true and should win the debate for God: There is none that does good, we are all corrupt, and we have all done abominable iniquities.....the best of us, the worst of us, the smartest of us and the dumbest of us......we are all guilty of breaking God's law, and any breaking of God's law is vile, corrupt, abominable, and disqualifies us from goodness because we have all gone bad and the corruption of badness is in our blood. By nature we are no good. The tiniest though of hatred toward another person is murder in God's viewpoint, the tiniest desire to have something that does not belong to us is theft in God's viewpoint, the tiniest lustful look on a woman we are not married to is adultery in God's viewpoint. These are all vile acts if even only in thought, these are all abominations in God's viewpoint, these are all born of the corruption that is in our nature which is against God. No matter how much good a person does, no matter how moral of a life that person lives, no matter how accomplished that person is, in God's judgement that person is corrupt and their record is nothing but one big black mark against their nature For a good, moral, honorable man to say in his heart "There is no God", the man, created by God, is making a fool of himself in front of God and is in danger of God's wrath which He promises to execute with fire of Hell against His adversaries.
Siladheil

Con

Although I have fulfilled my BOP, I will continue this debate thoughout the next round to speed us along to the voting round.

You're saying that no matter what we do, we're all vile, evil people? But the only way that we're going to find salvation is if we accept Jesus into our lives and hearts, we can be saved? What about the other 68.5% of the world [1]? Are they automatically doomed to the hell fire?

Christianity is extremely outnumbered as a religion.

I did not ignore the illustration, I simply wrote it off as not important. Of course an enemy combatant will shoot a complacent Marine in the face if he/she gets too close. Just like a venomous snake will bite a weary hiker as he/she walks on top of it. Those things are known that will most likely happen.

I issue a challenge to you PRO. Show me anywhere in the past, backed up with evidence, that God has smited the non believers. There is only one stipulation. You can't use a fictional piece of writing.

[1] http://www.pewforum.org...
Debate Round No. 4
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

One last thank you for outstanding good conduct and respectful disagreement.


As the following statements of my opponent are not relevant to this debate but would be the subjects of completely different debates, they will not be addressed except by allusion which may or may not be seen in my arguments:

1)"What about the other 68.5% of the world [1]? Are they automatically doomed to the hell fire?"

The topic of this debate is "Atheistic Military Men". This debate is not about the other 68.5 percent of the world population.


2) "Christianity is extremely outnumbered as a religion."

Again, though this statement is true, it is not relevant to this debate. The debate is not about popularity of any religion.


3 ")I issue a challenge to you PRO. Show me anywhere in the past, backed up with evidence, that God has smiled the non believers"

This challenge could be the topic of another debate. I would argue that God executes a death penalty against all unbelievers so all unbelievers are smitten by God, My opponent would probably argue as an atheist that nature or circumstance causes the death and God has nothing to do with it. That is not the argument of this debate, though it is addressed in the illustration I have used throughout this debate.

In the illustration, the Marine is not complacent as my opponent implied, but is confidently camouflaged, hidden, and the combatant does not believe the Marine is there because he can't see the Marine. The Marine is poised to take out the combatant at any moment, but for whatever reason chooses to watch the fool parading in front of him rather than to take him out.

Now elaborating and embellishing the illustration, let's suppose the Combatant is shouting things like "when I see a Marine, I'm going to kill him!" "I have five kids at home to feed and two elderly parents I care for, I give all I have to keep them safe and healthy and no Marine can be as good of a person as me" "I risk my life to save my friends and family, I volunteer my time caring for orphans and wounded pets, no Marine has the right to tell me what to do" "I'm better, stronger, braver, kinder, and more honorable than any fat cat American Marine who thinks he is better than me because he has big American guns behind him." "Marines are stupid, I'll kill them all". The hidden Marine chuckles to himself with his finger on the trigger and a dagger in his other hand, but then realizes....that guy is so much like me, I don't want to kill him, the poor fool......but as an enemy, he is still vile to the Marine and not innocent.....BOOM! Goodbye, fool.

You see, the Marine in this illustration is God. The enemy combatant is my debate opponent. It is not possible for the enemy combatant to shoot the Marine in the face: the Marine will take him out first. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God".
Siladheil

Con

Athough Pros stories are vivid and detailed, what pro is descibing is not foolishness, rather arrogance and complacency.

"ar·ro·gance
noun \: an insulting way of thinking or behaving that comes from believing that you are better, smarter, or more important than other people" [1]

"com·pla·cen·cy : a feeling of being satisfied with how things are and not wanting to try to make them better : a complacent feeling or condition

1 : self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies
2 : an instance of usually unaware or uninformed self-satisfaction" [2]

In Conclusion:

I have fulfilled my BOP by giving examples of how not all atheists are fools and how not all atheists are vile, evil, creatures. I have refuted all my opponents arguments. Since my opponent didn't bring anything new to the table in the final round, neither will I. Best of luck to my opponent in the voting round. "May the odds be ever in your favor!"

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com...



Debate Round No. 5
335 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
my GOD.....he only has one point in his way.
*bah-tum-tsk!
Posted by Preston 3 years ago
Preston
life god isn't angry at atheists he, is slow to anger and quick to forgive, and if you were a Christian you would realize that god is all about kindness, and he treasures those who don't believe. so atheists aren't hated by god, they're loved, in your analogy god isn't a marine able to kill the man but GOD, he is over seeing the marine and the man, he is sad fully watching us kill each other. he isn't angrily watching us and only letting us survive because we are funny.
Posted by Preston 3 years ago
Preston
so life is just a jerk than?
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
I told you we would not get along if you are potty mouthed with me.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
sounds like you have some wonderful old times there
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
ok
Posted by Siladheil 3 years ago
Siladheil
Some of them, yes. I am not one of those whiney Marines. As a matter of fact, I'm more than just a man behind a uniform. I have a "potty mouth" and I'm not even the worst of them. This is the last comment you'll ever see me post on any of your stuff LMGiG. I'm going to ignore anything else you post and encourage everyone else do the same. It'll be like old times when my older brother was annoying me and the only way I could get him to leave me alone was to ignore him until he lost interest. I suspect you'll do the same. Have a good life.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Marines can be big potty mouthed cry-babies
Posted by Siladheil 3 years ago
Siladheil
Will you guys please quit posting comments on this debate. Go find somewhere else to spread your bullsh!t.
Posted by Lightningstar 3 years ago
Lightningstar
@Sagey Do you really believe that you aren't hurting? If not consider this on a Saturday night you hard nothing better not do than atack a seventeen year old on the internet. It wasn't falase sympathy on my part your clearly searching for something. The only reason you refuse to accept the truth of Jesus's saving grace it's because it's too simple you expecting something complicated and nothings more simple than just saying I do to God's offer of forgiveness. I sincerely hope you find what it is you so desperately need to find.
19 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by WillRiley 3 years ago
WillRiley
LifeMeansGodIsGoodSiladheilTied
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Reasons for voting decision: You give Christians a bad name for doing something like this Pro. Shame on you. Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ?You fool!? will be liable to the hell of fire
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
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Reasons for voting decision: pro did...stuff? I'm not sure where he was going.
Vote Placed by Lightningstar 3 years ago
Lightningstar
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Reasons for voting decision: As a Christian I am sorry to say I am ashamed of you. How can you say someone else is a fool when Jesus Himself commanded us in Matthew 5:25b-whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. And how about how we ought not to judge others or we will be judged ourselves. If you became a Christian so that you could judge others, and think yourself better then those who think a different way then you then you need to reconsider your commitment.
Vote Placed by Preston 3 years ago
Preston
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Total points awarded:16 
Reasons for voting decision: I didn't really understand what Pro was trying to prove. it's obvious that Pro has done nothing other than tell odd stories and ramble irrelevantly about God. he doesn't fulfill his BOP. the 1 point for pro is a pitty point :(;
Vote Placed by Vere_Mendacium 3 years ago
Vere_Mendacium
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro makes no sense
Vote Placed by Martley 3 years ago
Martley
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Reasons for voting decision: The topic of Theism and how it relates to military service and combat is a very interesting, one I have a lot of interest in. I was encouraged that someone posted a debate on this topic. Unfortunately Pro did not have the debate abilities and logical POV to be able to argue the topic to the level it truly deserved. Pro engaged in wishy-washy conclusions and rambling anecdotes that had no relevance to proving the position. Pro did not do the topic true justice and I hope someone of greater debate prowess take up this topic again. Furthermore Pro has stated in the aftermath that they don't even care about winning debates, well that is rather obvious from Pro's performance here. Con satisfied the BoP for the position, and conducted a better debate and performance. Since Pro performed poorly and had no real intention of even winning the debate, I award all points to Con.
Vote Placed by Bennett91 3 years ago
Bennett91
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Reasons for voting decision: In order for Pros argument to work he had to prove god existed in the first place, he did not meet BoP.
Vote Placed by 1Historygenius 3 years ago
1Historygenius
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Reasons for voting decision: I don't even know what Pro was trying to do. Con simply had better arguments and sources while Pro seems better working a chuch than on a debate.
Vote Placed by Envisage 3 years ago
Envisage
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Reasons for voting decision: Con provided more a more objective argument and analysis of I the resolution, name gave several reasons to reject the resolution out of hand. Although Con did not directly address 'military men', Pro hardly did so either with his evidence, which was thoroughly debunked by Con.
Vote Placed by TrustmeImlying 3 years ago
TrustmeImlying
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Reasons for voting decision: PRO made 2 absolute statements that he could not provide evidence to back up. CON met his BOP handily in his opening argument.