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Atheists, can you prove that God doesn't exists?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/11/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 666 times Debate No: 69813
Debate Rounds (5)
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1. Hesham bin Hakam narrates:
Abu Shakir told me that he had a question and he asked me to arrange a meeting with my teacher, Imam Ja'far Sadiq (sixth leader of Muslims) because he had a question which he had asked many scholars but he had not got a convincing answer.
Hesham asked Abu Shakir if he did not want him to know about his question. He said that might perhaps have an answer to his question which he might probably like but Abu Shakir insisted that he wanted to meet Imam Sadiq and ask him his question as well.
Hesham says that he arranged a meeting for him and he asked his question:
Abu Shakir said to the Imam: "Would you allow me to say something and ask some questions?"
Imam Sadiq said: "What is your question?"
Abu Shakir al-Daysani asked Imam al-Sadiq: "How can you prove that you have a Creator?"
Consequently, he responded: "I found myself not free from one of the two possibilities: either I have created myself, or someone else has created me. If I have created myself, then I am not free from one of two meanings: either I created myself while I was already existent, or I created myself while I was nonexistent. Hence, if I created myself, and I already existed, then I was self-sufficient of giving existence to myself. And if I was nonexistent, then you know that the nonexistent cannot bring about a thing. Therefore, the third meaning is proven that I have a Creator and that is Allah, the Lord of the Universe."

2. One day Abu Shakir came to the Imam and said, "Prove to me the existence of God." The Imam told him to be seated. At that time a boy passed by holding a hen's egg. Imam called him, and taking the egg from him kept it on his palm. Then he told Abu Shakir, "See, it is such a strong fort that has no doors. On its outside is a hard skin and below it is a thin membrane, inside which flow two seas of gold and silver. But neither can the yellow mix with the white nor the white can merge with the yellow. Neither can a repairer enter it nor a destroyer comes out of it. No one can even know whether the newborn would be a male or a female. Then all of a sudden it cracks and a beautiful chick emerges from it. Can your reason agree that all this happened without a designer or a maker?" Hearing this Abu Shakir bowed down his head and said, "I repent for my beliefs today and accept the religion of Islam."

Atheist, you always ask monotheists to prove God. But now, I want you to prove that God doesn't exist. Can you prove no one has created egg? Can you prove no one has created the universe? Look at the universe. Look at the rotation of the earth and the moon and their order. Can you prove the universe has been made all of a sudden?


The universe is overwhelmingly a hostile, bleak, utterly insane place. The pocket we live in of relative safety and rationality is infinitely small compared to the totality of existence. If it was designed, it was designed by a lunatic.

Consider that leaving our planet means certain death unless you use advanced equipment that still might fail. Consider that the universe is mostly nothingness. Consider that there's points (The singularities of black holes) that are so utterly bizarre that the laws of physics as we know them don't apply to them. Consider that virtual particles are constantly popping in and out of existence for no discernible reason.

The universe clearly isn't designed for humanity. We aren't the center of it, we're a byproduct of it. We don't exist because of the universe, we exist in spite of it. Rather than submit to a god that I'm fairly sure doesn't exist, I'm going to use my existence the way I want to so I can enjoy life in its totality.
Debate Round No. 1


Hi and thanks for accepting my challenge. I wish you like.

- The Ways of Knowing God
God says in the Quran:" We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning" your" Lord" that He is, over all things, a Witness?" (43:51)
According to above verse, we can know God through two ways:

1. Thinking about the horizons; the events which are happening in this universe, looking at the creatures and the oraganization of the universe.

2. Thinking about ourselves, our fitrah, our pure nature and disposition.

About the first way of knowing God, I gave an example in my previous argument. If you want, I can tell you more.

But about the second way, we should know what fitrah means. The term "fitrah" means start and the beginning of something. We can also say that fitrah means creation. Because creation is the beginning of everything. Fitrah (pure nature) has three qualities:

1. It exists in eveything and everybody. However, the nature and fitrah of people can be different in weakness and strength. I mean, some have a strong nature and some have a weak one.

2. It is always unchangable. Nothing can change our fitrah, as God says in Quran:
"So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in" the creation of God." (30:30)

3. Our fitrah is free from being taught and trained. But if we want to remeber our fitrah, strengthen or improve, we need to reason and be logical.

God has created the fitrah in each and every human being. If we go deep within ourselves and touch our souls, we hear the message of God. History and anthropology has shown that if man is left alone and is not indoctrinated by any school of thought, then, sooner or later, his inner voice will lead him to believe in a power as the Creator and Maintainer of this world. [2]
Our fitrah believes in God. However, some people like you and other atheists have forgot their fitrah. That's way God sent the Messengers. They came to remind us of our fitrah and nature. They didn't come to say:" God exists." Rather, they have came to say:" You are aware of God's existence."
As God says in Quran, Prophets came to remind us of our fitrah:" So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder." (88:21)

All humans have a God-seeking fitrah:"So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of God upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know." (The Quran 30:30)

- The ways of remembering our nature
1. When man loses hope, he will turn his face to God unwanted.
However, at times this fitrah is subdued by external means. But it re-emerges when that person finds himself in difficulties, he naturally prays to a Power whom he believes to be above all powers. This is very well portrayed in the talk which Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a.s.) had with an atheist.
Knowing that the atheist had gone on sea voyages several times, the Imam asked: "Have you ever been caught in a fierce storm in the middle of nowhere, your rudder gone, your sails torn away, trying desperately to keep your boat afloat?"
The Atheist: "Yes."
The Imam: "And sometimes perhaps even that leaking boat went down leaving you exhausted and helpless at the mercy of the raging waves?"
The Atheist: "Yes."
The Imam: "Was not there, in all that despair, a glimmer of hope in your heart that some unnamed and unknown power could still save you?"
When the atheist agreed, the Imam said, "That power is God."
That atheist was intelligent. He knew the truth when he saw it.
The "inner way," in spite of being the natural and closest way of knowing God, is also a very personal way. It is only sufficient for the person who has seen the light within himself. [3]

God says in the Quran:" And when adversity touches you at sea, lost are [all] those you invoke except for Him. But when He delivers you to the land, you turn away [from Him]. And ever is man ungrateful." (17:67)

2. Looking at the universe and other creatures
God says in the Quran:"Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created? And at the sky - how it is raised? And at the mountains - how they are erected? And at the earth -" how it is spread out? So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder." (88:17-21)

- Humans have a God-Seeking Nature
Human has been created in a way that he seeks and wants God. You can't say "I do not believe in God.". Because you do! You have only forgot your fitrah. All humans need too worship a Power who is higher than themselves. Some people worship other than God and the rest are submitted to the Only God.
God has enjoined on us to worship Him. Worshipping God is a kind of being God-seeking:
"Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - [for] indeed, he is to you a clear enemy - And" that you worship [only] Me? This is a straight path." (the Quran 36:60-61)

He also says that all creatures prostrate to Him. And prostration is a kind of being God-seeking
"And to Allah prostrates whoever is within the heavens and the earth, willingly or by compulsion, and their shadows [as well] in the mornings and the afternoons." (13:15)

It is possible that this God-seeking nature gets weaker by the external means. But it will never be destroyed.
God says:"And when they board a ship, they supplicate God," sincere to Him in religion." But when He delivers them to the land, at once they associate others with Him." (29:65)

We can understand from above verse that in difficulties, all humans supplicate to God. But when God removes their grief, they will forget Him or associate others with Him. When humans get disappointed, when they completely lose hope, they will turn their face to God.

For getting more information about our nature, read the following article:

In this argument, I just wanted to tell you that all people, even atheists, believe in God. All you have to do is looking at your heart and being logical. If you have any question, you can ask me and If you disagree with me, please tell me.
I know you don't believe in the Quran, but I have to use it to prove my sayings. You said the universe had not been creatwd for us. But God says something else:
"It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things." (2:29)

God created this universe for us and created us for Himself. God wants us to worship Him. But it doesn't mean He needs our worship. Because the worship of angels is enough for Him:
" And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" God said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."" (2:30)

Indeed, we need our worship. We need it to reach the perfection. Man is created greedy. He always wants more. But due to his short life, he cannot get infinite wealth and power. He cannot reach perfection. What about the hereafter? It is eternal. Man can live forever. So he can have whatever he wants. If we worship God, we can reach perfection in the hereafter. Whatever God orders us to do is for own benefit. And what He has prohibited can harm us.

"But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And God Knows, while you know not." (2:216)

At the end, I want to share some signs of God with you.

"Indeed, God is the cleaver of grain and date seeds. He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living. That is God; so how are you deluded? [He is] the cleaver of daybreak and has made the night for rest and the sun and moon for calculation. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing. And it is He who placed for you the stars that you may be guided by them through the darknesses of the land and sea. We have detailed the signs for a people who know. And it is He who produced you from one soul and [gave you] a place of dwelling and of storage." We have detailed the signs for a people who understand. And" it is He who sends down rain from the sky, and We produce thereby the growth of all things. We produce from it greenery from which We produce grains arranged in layers. And from the palm trees - of its emerging fruit are clusters hanging" low." And [We produce]" gardens" of grapevines" and olives and pomegranates, similar yet varied. Look at [each of] its fruit when it yields" and [at] its" ripening. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe." (6:95-98)

"[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth." (6:96)

"And He"is,"of all things, Knowing. That is Allah,"your Lord;" there" is"no"deity except Him,"the Creator"of"all things, so worship Him. And"He is Disposer of all things. Vision perceives Him not"but He perceives" [all]" vision;and He is"the"Subtle,"the Acquainted." (The Quran 6:101-103)

"And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness. And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing. And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk. It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming." (36:37-40)

[1] The most reliable source, The Word of God, The Noble Quran.




You claim that utter despair will universally make man turn to god. This is easily disproven. Find men like Richard Pyror, a comedian who mocked religion as well as such things as his own cocaine fueled suicide attempt by self immolation. Doubtlessly Pryor was miserable for much of his life, but he continued to use it in his comedy and continually poked fun at religion. There are indeed some that react by finding comfort in religion, but it's certainly not universal.

You claim that such mysteries as mountains, the sky, and camels are evidence of god. Modern understanding of geology, physics, and evolution explain all of those without once involving a deity.

You claim that I must believe in god deep within my psyche; I can't help but wonder when you gained the ability read minds and how I haven't noticed this myself considering the fact that I don't have a single faithful bone in my body.

Your argument boils down to appeals to the Quran and the cosmological argument. This doesn't work. The Quran is the claim, you can't support a claim with itself. Try using evidence from outside of the Quran, such as science, logic, direct observations anyone can make, etc.

The cosmological argument is incoherent. It claims that all is designed because all appears to be designed. But if there's nothing that wasn't designed, how can we know what an undesigned thing looks like to compare it to design? The argument is meaningless if the idea of an appearance of design is meaningless, but the only way for the argument to be a meaningful statement is for it to be wrong.

Furthermore, it fails to take into account the fact that evolution explains why life works- Because everything that didn't work got filtered out of the gene pool.

Life can have meaning without god. The universe is awful and cold but we can create a wonderful and warm place in this little pocket we have. I don't need a god.
Debate Round No. 2


Do you think I have read your mind when I said your nature believes in God? Ok, I want to ask you some questions. When I say you can walk, did I read your mind? When I say you can speak, did I read your mind? The nature (fitrah) of all creatures believes in God. But when some people like you forget themselves and deny it, that doesn't mean it's not true.

Do you know what your problem is? You do not think at all. Or I should say, You don't want to think. If you think carefully about the creation, you will see how an egg, how a camel or any other creatures can guide you. If you think about them, you will realize they couldn't be created all of a sudden and Someone has created them. In Quran, God asks us to look at the camel. Why don't you do so? Please read the following article. It tells you how camel can prove the existence of God.

My friend, if I say no one has written your favorite book, you will ridicule me. If I say no one has built your house, you will ridicule me. You believe someone wrote your fav book ant it wasn't written all of a sudden. So why you answer "no one", when I ask you who has created the universe? Why? Why do you not believe in God? Because you can't see Him?
We can see God through our hearts and insights which are more reliable than eyes. Eyes cannot see air, nor microbes nor virus, nor Laser no x-rays, nor invisible ultra violet and infra red-rays which are beyond the visible spectrum (violet to red). Eyes are deceived by mirage. Truly, God cannot be described except the way the Almighty described it. How can God be described when the senses are unable to imagine or understand the Supreme Being that cannot be seen? The Divine Being despite the complete and full presence is remote and yet is near with all the remoteness; has created circumstance and personality but has no circumstance or personality; has created the place but has no place. God has no place or circumstance, the Almighty is a single unique being.

Have you ever decided to do something? Have you ever acheived whatever you want? Sometimes we plan and decide to do something. When we look at the situation, we are sure that we can acheive what we want and we try hard for it. But suddenly, an unexpected even happens which ruins our plan, which doesn't let us reach success. Have you ever expreinced such a thing? If we controlled our life by our own, we could prevent that unexpected even from happening. What is your excuse for that? You may say it is our chance, but I call it the Will of God. Due to His wisdom, God sometimes doesn't want us get what we want. We try hard for our acheivment, but at the end, whatever God wants will happen. Sometimes God helps us and sonetimes He won't for some reasons.

You asked me to prove God's existence by science. But I want to tell you something. Can the scientists prove everything? Do you know what happened in 685 A.D? Have you ever heard anything about the blood rain in 685? Can scientists prove why the sky shed blood in that year? No. They cannit. But Muslims know. In 685, the grandson of Muhammad was beheaded bitterly by the enemies. And the sky shed blood for that tragedy.
Do the scientists know about everything? No. They do not even know everything about our own body. They don't know many things about animals and the space. Although everyday they discover new things, they know a few things about the secrets of this universe. They do not even know what the soul and spirit is. Science can only prove God through studying the creatures, as I said. It can peove God through cosmological argument. God is beyond our imagination and intellect. He is greater than what we describe. For believing in God, you do not need any scientific reason. You must believe in your heart. Please tell me in your argument that what will happen to you, if you believe in God? What will happen if you worship Him?

You said you didn't need God. But my friend, science says something different!

A group of scientists from the British University of Columbia emphasize, through a chain of scientific researches, that there is no life on earth without the existence of religion. Religion was and is still a must for man's existence within regulated societies. They have reached this conclusion after careful examining of the conditions of a group of atheists and comparing them with the conditions of a group of believers. They have discovered that believing in the existence of "A Creator "for this universe helps man to live a better social life. Former studies have stressed that theism facilitates the curing of some chronic diseases as well as some psychiatric illnesses such as depression and despair. Likewise, this study shows that belief makes man generous and ready to help other people and sacrifice for them. The study is purely scientific ,objective and unconnected with religious motivations. The study has taken about 30 years, where hundreds of cases have been examined .Researchers have discovered that practising believers are of more aptitudes to respond to their communities in comparison with non-believers. Professor Norenzayan , a specialist in Psychology Department, Columbia University, says:" we try to reach to the scientific proof of the religious influence on the humans behavior; religion has enabled people to live in groups . To a great deal, religion may have prevented man's extinction in some age of the past ages ". Researchers show that religion increases confidence in other people, reduces worry and prevents man from being a deceiver. Religion has played a major role in the evolution of the human communities overcoming all the obstacles threatening their continuity. Faith makes man happier, more optimistic and not afraid of death unlike non-believers who live in misery and pessimism. The Quran includes and emphasizes these facts: "God, the only creator of everything, promises every truthful believer to have true happy life. God says:"Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do. 16:97"
As a result for believing in God, believers live with much more relief and security than the disbelievers . There are great differences between two groups of believers and disbelievers, where they both have been asked to fill in a detailed questionnaire. Atheists always suffer worrying and instability that are manifested in their reactions , excitements and even in their way of responding to my questions , while believers haven't any kind of worry or frustration thanking God in all situations whether good or bad. Also, whenever man's belief, certitude and trust in God increase, his happiness increases and he becomes immune to depression. [1]

Do you know that turning away from God (Allah) leads to suicide? Science can prove it! Read the following article:

In your next argument, just simply tell me why don't you believe in God. And please prove that no one has created you and the universe. Can you do so?


Religion makes people helpful and generous -- under certain conditions


The doctrine of fitrah comes from Islam. You're citing Islam as evidence for Islam. That isn't how reasoning works.

I do think, as evidenced by the fact that I don't blindly accept dogma. You have failed to address the holes I pointed out in the teleological argument. Restating your assertion that the world is designed is not a valid substitute for actually arguing, address the flaws I pointed out in that argument or else this conversation will no longer be worth my time and effort.

You go on several paragraph long tangents about believing in my heart. That isn't argumentation either. Those are empty buzzwords that have no relationship to reality. Stop trying to write poetry about the power of belief and use empiricism.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if believing in God increases happiness, that doesn't make it more true. Heroin also increases happiness and we likely both agree that heroin is a bad idea.

If I told you dragons existed, you'd ask me to prove it. You'd bring up that there'd be some pretty obvious evidence of this, with scorch marks on the grass from the fire breathing, dragons being from the sky, dead dragons being found. None of that evidence exists though, so you'd think I'm full of it.

You think that your God isn't subject to these rules. The evidence does not exist. We now understand that life has evolved. The egg and camel aren't evidence for god because they're completely mundane and came to exist through mundane means. Everything that worked reproduced and everything that didn't died. There is no reason to believe in a god, and therefore I don't.

So if there's a god there, I challenge him to strike me dead. I'll let you know how that goes when I respond next.

Finally, to address your feelings on suicide and atheism: Have you considered that there may be more explanations? For example, depressed people tend to be more realistic. Maybe the depressed are just less likely to engage in the cognitive dissonance and self deception required to stay in a religion? Because I think that life is just fine without a god. I'm free from cosmic tyranny. I can make my own meaning of life.
Debate Round No. 3


Ok, I want to talk about the relation between atheism and suicide. You may be right. There may be more explaination for committing such immortality. People commit suicide due to depression. But why are they depressed? Have you ever thought about it? Let's read what science has to say:
A research at Oxford University has found believers can rely on their religion to endure suffering with greater fortitude.The academics at The Oxford Centre for Science of The Mind built the study on 24 participants, 12 of them are Roman Catholics and the other 12 are"atheists. The volunteers were not told the true purpose of the experiment, only that it was designed to judge how people felt pain while contemplating pictures of different things.
The researchers found Catholics seemed able to block out much of the pain when they saw a religious pictures but there was no such brain activity among the atheists, whose pain and anxiety levels stayed roughly the same throughout the experiment when the researchers showed them an ordinary photo.
Participants spent half an hour inside an MRI scanner, receiving a series of 20 electric shocks in four separate sessions while looking at either religious or non-religious picture
The researchers added that the front right-hand side of the brain of the believers lit up on the scanner, indicating that the neural mechanisms of pain modulation had been engaged but there was no such brain activity among the atheists.
Scientists claim to have discovered that faith in God really can relieve pain
Writing in the scientific journal Pain, the researchers concluded that at least some religious believers can moderate their pain by thinking about it more positively.
As long as, there is a direct effect of watching religious pictures on reducing pain so we can understand why the remembrance of God make hearts feel rest. God says:
" Those who have believed and whose hearts are assured by" the remembrance of God. Unquestionably, by the remembrance of Allah hearts. are assured.". (13:28)
Western scientists discovered this fact only these days but the question is who told our illiterate prophet peace be upon him that fact in a place full of illiteracy and underdevelopment?
The answer is God who says about Himself:" Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, the Exalted in Might," the Wise." (64:18)

You said you could make the meaning of your life. I am sorry but it is the funniest thing I have ever heard. How can an atheist live with aim and purpose? Can you say what life means to you? It is rare to find someone who has not asked himself or others the question: "What is the purpose of our creation?" A group of people continuously come into this world while another group leave it, becoming extinguished for ever - what is the idea behind this coming and going?
If we humans had not been living on this planet, what difference would it have made? Is it necessary for us to know why we have come and why we shall go? If we discover the reason, do we have the ability to acquire this objective? Subsequent to this question, numerous other questions loom, plaguing man's mind and thoughts.
Whenever the materialists ask themselves this question, they apparently cannot answer it since matter does not possess perception and intellect for it to pursue an objective. Hence, they have put themselves at ease in this regard by convincing themselves of the insignificance of man's creation!
Is it not strange that these people envision precise aims and plan systematic programs for the minute details of life such as education, job, work, treatment, medication and sports, but, when they view life as a whole, they considers it to be aimless?
Thus, it is not astonishing that when a group from amongst such people reflect upon these issues, they become discontented by this vain and purposeless life and consequently resort to suicide.
That's why atheist commit suicide. Did you understand that?

It is worth emphasizing that among human thinkers there exists no difference of opinion on the point that this universe has a self-sustaining First Cause. At the most, materialists call it matter, while the religious philosophers call it Allah. It is essential to acknowledge the existence of the First Cause, for a sequence of causes and effects cannot go on indefinitely and we must reach a point where we should come to a cause which is not the effect of any other cause, i.e. the ultimate cause or the Unmoved Mover , which is self-existing and which has always been and shall always be."
It is this Self-Sustaining First Cause which not only makes our intellectual life possible but also quite meaningful. Suppose for a moment that there is no such First Cause. To where does this lead us? Surely this cause and effect pursuit lands us in what is known in Philosophy as a continuum ad infinitum. This brings our investigation to a blind alley. It marks the beginning of intellectual wilderness, a wild goose chase. You go on piling cause upon cause and effect upon effect only to find still another cause and effect staring you in the face. Of what earthly use is it to put zero after zero when the result is zero or to place nil after nil when the result is nil ? Such is the deception of a certain mental activity and such is its misguidance."
It will thus be seen that the only way to get out of this mire is the acknowledgement of the Self- Sustaining First Cause.
Belief in the existence of an Eternal and First Cause is the common ground between the believers in God and the materialists. The only controversial point is whether the First Cause has knowledge and intellect or not. That is the real point of difference."
The materialists deny that the First Cause has any intellect. They hold that the first cause is matter, which lacks any intellect or knowledge, whereas the believers in God maintain that the First Source of the universe has limitless knowledge, wisdom and rationality.

Let's cast an eye on the various phenomena of the universe to find out which one supports which of these two theories and to see whether the things existing in the universe indicate that the First Cause has intellect."
It will be better to begin with our own body. Doesn't the construction of the human eye and the way the lenses, retina and various layers of it have been fixed, testify that its maker is fully conversant with the physical laws concerning the reflection of light and the working of lenses and mirrors?
Doesb't the composition of human blood of plasma and various types of corpuscles with such a fixed proportion that the slightest change in it disturbs the whole biological system, clearly show that the maker of the blood knew the chemical composition and properties of all the ingredients of blood fully well?
Doesn't the construction of the living human, animal and plant cells in such a complex and mysterious and at the same time elegant and accurate way manifest that the job has been performed by a Being who had full knowledge of all the laws connected with the human, animal and plant physiology?
Doesn't the special construction of the solar system and the particular proportion between the size, distance and speed of each planet of this system prove that the maker of this machine is fully aware of all the details of the law of gravitation and the effects of the rotatory motion in producing centrifugal forces?
The special construction of all that exists in the universe from the smallest particles to the biggest galaxies and the accurate and wonderfully arranged systems of their working bear witness to the fact that the First source has full knowledge of all the connected laws and systems."
In principle all human sciences are nothing more than a partial knowledge of a minute part of the secrets and laws of the universe.
How can it ever be that we, with such a partial knowledge, should become scholars and scientists but the First Source who brought the whole universe into existence should have no knowledge and intellect? transplantation of a human heart by Dr. Bernard required millions of scientists for thousands of years to put in their efforts for the development of medicine and surgery. Is it conceivable that the very maker of the heart should have no knowledge?
The interpretation of creation of all the well-calculated and well-conceived systems, as chance events and product of unplanned and aimless causes is as illogical as to say that the transplantation of heart performed by Dr. Bernard and his team wasn't the result of any knowledge and study, and it was just by chance that grafting took place."
Such an interpretation is totally unacceptable. But to say that the entire universe has come into existence just by chance is far more illogical. Hence the materialistic interpretation of the genesis of the universe and all that exists in it, is totally unscientific.
Thus, every book of our natural sciences like physics, chemistry , physiology, anatomy, medicine, surgery etc. may be used as book of natural theology, for all these books discuss the secrets and laws of the marvelous systems of creation, whose logical and correct interpretation isn't possible without acknowledging the existence of God.
As Kepler has said:" The more we know about the creation and grandeur of heavenly bodies, the deeper should be our faith."
Thus there exists a close relationship between the progress of sciences and the firmness of faith in God. The more the scientific knowledge expands, the firmer will the faith grow in the One Source of knowledge and power.
Mr. McCombs, a biologist, who has been the head of the Academy of Sciences, Florida, says that every new discovery in the world of science increases the firmness of our faith hundreds of times, dispels the hidden doubts which more or less lurk inside our hearts, and replaces them with the nobler ideas of the acknowledgement of God and His unity.


It's only natural that the irrational belief that there's something watching out for you is going to make you endure pain more. That doesn't mean that it's true. We humans comfort ourselves with a lot of fantasies.

You should read some Camus or Sartre, maybe Nietzsche. Since Nietzsche, existentialist philosophers have been asking the question of meaning without god. When Nietzsche said "God is dead." it wasn't a declaration of victory. It was a eulogy. Nietzsche was asking the question "Now that modern enlightenment is rapidly wiping out belief in god and furthermore grand ideas of the purpose of life, what do we do now?". There's a lot of answers to that question. I'll respond with another question though.

Does a child building a sandcastle stop just because he knows the waves will wash it away? My life is no different. I'm going to die like anything else, but I aim to have a good time in the interstice.

The first cause is the sort of thing that theoretical physicists are working on. I won't pretend to know all of the details, but I do know that virtual particles are constantly popping in and out of existence with no real reason or pattern, so we know that something does in fact often come from nothing. Quantum physics are weird like that. From that, it isn't really that much of a stretch to imagine a singularity popping into existence within a void.

No matter what though, the universe pre-singularity is a meaningless area of discussion unless both of us take some advanced courses in theoretical physics and then continue this discussion, so let's not go down that path.

Look though, we've already established that the argument of "It looks designed, therefore it must be designed" isn't valid. There's a lot of space and time in the universe. That space and time allows things to happen, and a lot of things are happening. So many things are happening in fact that it's a statistical certainty that a lot of chains of those things will lead to observers of those things. From there, natural selection and evolution shape the development of life. It isn't at all surprising that life exists and that the solar system works. It'd be a lot more surprising if they didn't. This is far from the strangest thing about the universe.

Seriously though, stop citing complex life as evidence for god. We've been over this. Evolution. It's completely mundane, I'd like for you to at least acknowledge that.

If there was a god, the human body would be a lot better. We wouldn't be prone to cancer, we wouldn't have blind spots, and it'd probably be a lot easier to reach my prostate. The universe wouldn't be so unnecessarily large and quantum mechanics wouldn't be so goddamned weird. The universe has the handwriting of chaos all over it, and I find it hard to believe that anyone can seriously think this place was made for us.
Debate Round No. 4


" And if God had willed, He could have made you [of] one religion, but He causes to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills." (16:93)

"Then have those who believed l not accepted that had God willed, He would have guided the people, all of them [by force]? And those who disbelieve do not cease to be struck, for what they have done, by calamity - or it will descend near their home - until there comes the promise of God." (13:31)

I don't know why you deny God. But if God had willed, He would have guided you by force. But He wants you to believe in Him willingly.

You told me to prove God with science. But you must know that scientist cannot prove or discover anything. Read the following text:

Even with modern science and recent discoveries about the universe, scientists have confessed their limited knowledge and understanding of the great universe, and admit that they expect to remain unaware of the answers to the universe"s secrets and oddities. Despite developing science, scientists" knowledge will remain limited just as the Quran assures in God"s saying:" And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little." (17:85)
Western scientists declare their limited knowledge and admit that they still lack a lot of information regarding the universe"s secrets. The president of the central airplanes and space in"Germany, Johann Dietrich Forner, says that the world hasn"t discovered more than 5% of the incredible universe"s secrets. Moreover, scientists don"t comprehend more than 5% of the available discoveries and 95% of these discoveries remain mysterious and are considered dark materials or puzzling power. Furner also predicted the existence of aliens but that mankind won"t be able to recognize them with current technologies. [1]

We can prove God by thinking deeply about the universe. Humans and the universe could be nonexistent. But now that we exist, it means that Someone has created us. Someone who is the First Cause. Someone who must exist because He is Necessarily Existent. And He is God.

The sience says that believing in God can remove the pain and avoid being depressed. But when you can't believe this fact, it doesn't mean it is untrue. Because scientists have proved that. But there's no blame upon you. You can't understand how faith can endure pain, because you are atheist. If you believed in God, you could see how it happens. If you believed in God, you would see this world differently

Anyway, you said;" stop citing complex life as evidence for god."
This complex life proves that there is a Creator. How can a complex life be created all of a sudden without the existence of God? Can you prove you have created yourself? Please answer God's questions:

"We have created you, so why do you not believe? Have you seen that which you emit? Is it you who creates it, or are We the Creator?" (The Quran 56:58)
"And have you seen that seed which you sow? Is it you who makes it grow, or are We the grower? If We willed, We could make it dry debris, and you would remain in wonder. (56-63-65)
"And have you seen the water that you drink? Is it you who brought it down from the clouds, or is it We who bring it down? If We willed, We could make it bitter, so why are you not grateful? And have you seen the fire that you ignite? Is it you who produced its tree, or are We the producer? We have made it a reminder and provision for the travelers, So exalt the name of your Lord, the Most Great." (56:68-74)

I know you don't believe in Quran, but at least answer above questions. They can tell you how the universe can prove God.

This universe has been created for us. Believe it or not. The Quran tells us about this:
"Do you not see that God has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, both apparent and unapparent?" (31:20)
"He created the heavens and earth in truth. High is He above what they associate with Him. He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary. And the grazing livestock He has created for you; in them is warmth and [numerous] benefits, and from them you eat. And for you in them is the enjoyment of beauty when you bring them in"for the evening and when you send them out to pasture. And they carry your loads to a land you could not have reached" except with difficulty to yourselves. Indeed, your Lord is Kind and Merciful. And He created the horses, mules and donkeys for you to ride and as adornment. And He creates that which you do not know." (16:4-8)
"It is He who sends down rain from the sky; from it is drink and from it is foliage in which you pasture animals. He causes to grow for you thereby the crops, olives, palm trees, grapevines, and from all the fruits. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought. And He has subjected for you the night and day and the sun and moon, and the stars are subjected by His command. Indeed in that are signs for people who reason. And He has subjected whatever He multiplied for you on the earth of varying colors. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who remember. And it is He who subjected the sea for you to eat from it tender meat and to extract from it ornaments which" you wear. And you see the ships plowing through it, and He subjected it that you may seek of His bounty; and perhaps you will be grateful. And He has cast" into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and made rivers and roads, that you may be guided, And landmarks. And by the stars they are also guided. Then is He who creates like one who does not create? So will you not be reminded? (16:10-17)
"Do they not see that We have created for them from what Our hands have made, grazing livestock, and then they are their owners? And We have tamed them for them, so some of them they ride, and some of them they eat. And for them therein are other benefits and drinks, so will they not be grateful?" (36:71-73)

Quran and science are to unseparatable things. The following website can tell you how scientists proved the verses of Quran

You want to live a happy life and enjoy. But are you sure your life is meaningful without believing in God? Are you sure that if you believe in God, your life will turn to misery? If you think your life is meaningful now, you are deceiving yourself.
For a moment, only for a moment, imagine God exists. Read my arguments again and think deeply about them. You deny God, because you have never thought about Him. You consider the believers to be lower than you. You think you are wiser than them because you don't believe in the Unseen God. For a moment, imagine you are wrong. What will happen to you, if God and Hereafter exist? Will you not get regretful that you didn't believe in them?

"Indeed, We have warned you of a near punishment on the Day when a man will observe what his hands have put forth and the disbeliever will say, 'Oh, I wish that I were dust!'" (78:40)

If God exists, you will be among the losers.
"Indeed, the losers are the ones who will lose themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection. Unquestionably," that is the manifest loss." (39:15)

"And when regret overcame them and they saw that they had gone astray, they said, 'If our Lord does not have mercy upon us and forgive us, we will surely be among the losers.'" (7:149)

But if God doesn't exist, the believers/Muslims lose nothing.
They offer prayer five times a day which only takes 17 minutes. Their prayer is the key to heaven. Besides, prayer has many benefits for our health. If God doesn't exist, at least they have been healthy in this world. Muslims fast during one month. Fast has so benefits for health and is the best diet. If God doesn't exist, they can remain healthy in this world by fasting.
You can find the benefits of prayer and fast in the website I mentioned.

The believers lose nothing if they're wrong. But you will be among the losers if you don't believe in God. Think about it.

I just try to wake you up from the sleep of ignorance. But you'll never be guided unless you think about this universe.

- Transience of the Universe
Science tells us that in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics, all the energy available in the world is proceeding towards uniformity and neutrality, and a day will come when it, having become uniform, will be neutralized. And then a state of indifference will prevail in the whole world. This is just like the case of interconnected vessels of the liquid, we observe motion, but this state doesn't continue for ever. Sooner or later all the levels become uniform and everything becomes motionless and quiet.
According to this law, the universe must have a history. It can't be eternal. Had it always existed, it would have become uniform and neutral so long ago.
On this ground, we must admit that this material world has not always existed. It's not eternal and must have a history.
Now the big question is what is the origin of the universe. What event disturbed the first day tranquility and became the source of the creation of all the phenomena?
The first explosion or the Big Bang? Then what was the source of the explosion of the uniform atoms of primary matter? How is it possible that in a state of complete tranquility and indifference such an explosion should occur automatically?
Here it must be admitted that some outside factor was the source of the disturbance of the first indifference, emergence of a wave in the uniform of lifeless matter and the subsequent creation of the diverse phenomena of the world. We call this supernatural factor, God.

Please read my comments, too.


Throughout this argument, my opponent has continuously restated arguments from incredulousness (a logical fallacy), arguments from apparent design (which I refuted only for my opponent to repeatedly restate them without even responding to my refutation), and the god of the gaps fallacy. In short: My opponent's arguments have been disappointing and frustrating. I feel that I was ignored, as none of my criticisms were even considered.

Well, my opponent tried to address my request that he stop citing complex life as evidence for god, but they missed the point entirely. The point was that it's mundane and explained by evolution without any sort of supernatural intervention.

I'm honestly mildly insulted that this low quality evangelism was billed as an actual argument. I've received only appeals to the quran outside of the above logical fallacies. No sort of argumentation or proof.

And no, the fact that we don't know what caused the big bang is not evidence for god. That's the god of the gaps fallacy. Try again.

In conclusion: I came to disprove god. I cited several counterintuitive and strange elements of the universe that would be incredibly poor design choices and could not have been implemented by an omniscient creator, as well as pointing out that there's no proof for god or any of the signs one would expect from a universe with a god. My opponent has failed do to anything but restate a series of logical fallacies, a refuted argument, and appeals to the quran, which I'm rather irritated about.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Julia5678 2 years ago
- Atheism Does Not Exist
In view of the scientific arguments mentioned above to prove the existence of God, it may be asked why most of the scientists and founders of physical sciences still adhere to atheism. The answer to this question is simple. There is hardly any scientist who does not explicitly or implicitly profess the existence of the First Cause or the Source of Knowledge and Power. In the words of a well-known philosopher there exists no atheism. Everybody thinks of Him and acknowledges Him in his own way."
If any body, in the course of discussion on heart, states that Nature has put up a septum between the right and left chambers of the heart so that the pure and the impure blood may not be mixed, does it not mean that he concedes that Nature has aim, intention, program and intellect? In this case is it possible to say that by Nature he means factors lacking consciousness? Obviously he means God though he uses the word, Nature."
Such expressions which are an evidence of faith in the existence of a First Cause, are found in the discourses of most scientists. That shows that they all hold that Nature has aim, will, intention and program. Evidently by the word . "Nature" they do not mean factors having no consciousness or will. Hence, obviously they use this word as a name for God.

Posted by Julia5678 2 years ago
- The Quran and Acknowledgement of God
It is interesting that in the Quran, a large number of whose verses are meant to strengthen the belief in God, reliance has invariably been put on scientific arguments.
The Quran in most of its verses concerning the unity of God, refers to the first method, i.e. the study of the system of the universe. It calls upon all to study this marvelous system. Sometimes it refers to the secrets of the creation of the heavens. It says: "In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alteration of night and day, there are many signs for the people of good sense."
Sometimes it refers to other methods. It cites the Champion of Unity, Prophet Abraham as saying : "My Lord is He who gives life and causes death."
Here reference has been made to life and death for they definitely indicate the existence of the Creator. This is the another way of proving the existence of God. In the Quran there are hundreds of verses on the subject of divine unity and acknowledgement of God, in which attention has been drawn to the marvels of creation and grandeur of the universe. Study of these verses can be the subject of an independent book, in which wonders of science and secrets of Quran can be discussed side by side.
Posted by NoMagic 2 years ago
Things that don't exist can't be proven to exist. If they could be proven to exist, then they would actually exist. Is this perhaps why no god ever has been proven to exist? Because they don't. There are no gods. Get over it.
Posted by DeathsDespair15 2 years ago
Yeah I agree with Ozzyhead. We(atheists) will never actually be able to disprove a 'god' until one is truly proven to exist. Until then we can just show them the irrationality that religion has to offer... That's like saying there is a magical and invisible fairy flying around and you can't tell me i'm wrong because you can't disprove its existence, just like I can't prove it. That's why the whole "Is god real?" kind of debate doesn't really work out.
Posted by Ozzyhead 2 years ago
Atheists weren't the ones who asserted a claim. Theists did. Theists need to prove existence. Otherwise, you are saying that I can claim anything and it is up to you to disprove, not up to me to prove. If we use your logic, then I now burden you to disprove my idea that George Carlin was an incarnation of God. According to your logic, you have to prove my claim wrong and I do not have the burden of proving it true. It's the same Idea with God. Someone once asserted his existence yet never proven his existence. If nothing was ever claimed to begin with, you wouldn't be burden to prove existence
Posted by Julia5678 2 years ago
I guess you are a terrorist like ISIS. Because they Takfeer Muslims and call them disbeliever. You must be Wahhabi, aren't you? Because only ignorwnt Wahhabis think like you.
Posted by 18Karl 2 years ago
You are worse than a kafir, you thief. Produce your own arguments.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Wylted 2 years ago
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Total points awarded:20 
Reasons for voting decision: Not even a debate. I refuse to award this nonsense by awarding argument points to anyone. Pro is the only one to use sources.