The Instigator
2-D
Pro (for)
Winning
11 Points
The Contender
imabench
Con (against)
Losing
4 Points

Atheists enjoy at least the same quality of life as Christians.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
2-D
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/9/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,425 times Debate No: 40245
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (15)
Votes (4)

 

2-D

Pro

It's a common assumption that Christian's are happier, more moral, enjoy more successful marriages etc but I disagree. I'm also considering employment, the built environment, physical/mental health and other issues that can be demonstrated to have a large effect on well being. First round is for acceptance only.
imabench

Con

I accept and will argue that Atheists do not enjoy the same quality of life as Christians..... Since Atheists have to put up with Christians and all of their combined retardation.
Debate Round No. 1
2-D

Pro

Ok, I’ll try to anticipate Con’s argument and post half my canned argument from last time I tried this one. That took me an entire afternoon for a forfeit!

There are plenty of Christian retards, don’t get me wrong, but they’re balanced by smug atheist jerks that exist mostly to aggravate Christians. The rise of fundies in the United States caused a violent reaction in the irritating outspoken atheists that offer their sneered, elitist advice anytime no one asks for it.

Your average sensible Christian suffers devastating blows to life quality in the middle of this crazy-off having to deal with pressure from both sides. The fundie plague is still mainly contained in the United States so generally atheists don’t have to deal with them.

Minding your own business? Great, let me explain why your ideas are Stupid.

Unfortunately, atheists spend a lot of the time antagonizing Christians having a depressing impact on their lives.

Say you’re an average every day Christian just minding your own business hoping for an afterlife and after a rough week just want to enjoy your favorite ice cream flavor, Jesus. Here comes the atheist bully to slap to the cone out of your hand and explain why you’re an idiot for enjoying it.

God cure your headache or save your life in a devastating accident? Well keep it to yourself; instead of a friendly congrats from an atheist you’ll get a smug comment like, “what about the hundreds who died?” or, “Seriously, you know headaches go away don’t you?”

Enjoying the Internets, how could we spoil that for you?

Wanna post a video of your favorite apologist? Just be ready to defend yourself against the atheist Internet army that obsesses 24/7 to ruin your day. Thanks for link to your well-crafted fundie meme and the thirty-page Reddit response, I’ll totally read that.

How about that Life changing miracle story you can’t wait to share with your Christian friends 1^

Get ready for an enlightening discussion from atheists, “There was absolutely no healing from the fraud of the bible. You are delusional. Drink some blood for zombie Jezeus and dream on.” –San Mcnellis,

“Riiight..because no one has EVER missed when shooting at somebody, before this twats story?! He went from a rational thinker to a delusional jesus freak? What a terrible story. I was not moved at all. Religion is poison” –Turd Merger

Try spreading the good news while standing in front of a God Hates F#gs sign

Thanks for representing Christians Westboro! The crazy Christian flavors splash all over the normal Christians and are more harmful to them. At least we can laugh and add it to the anti-Christian meme database we all share. It’s humiliating to be associated to groups like this and there’s always an obnoxious atheist there to shove it in your face.

You haven’t been threatening abortion clinics, claiming Gays cause Hurricanes or demanding Intelligent Design be taught as science but you’re getting blamed for it. Now the targets on your profile, thanks for representing Christians Bachmann 2^

The Fundamentalist epidemic is for the most part contained

There are exceptions but for the most part there are no Ted Haggards or Ray Comforts in the general population raining down odd accusations and threats of hell for Jesus in the rest of the world. Just like many other issues like obesity, or prison population, we’re number one!

In Europe you can enjoy a cheap laugh at Pat Roberson’s expense but don’t have to deal with his brand of idiocy in your everyday 3^

Looking forward to your response.

-

Here’s my previous argument. Notice I frame this like I just want to be equal while I condescendingly explain why we’re better than Christians. Such an atheist dick move, we can’t help it.

Unbelievers are often high achieving trustworthy people and yet we are one of the least trusted groups in America. I am by no means a strong anti-theist but if there were less ignorance on some of this information people wouldn’t have such a bad impression of atheists.

Atheists are equally moral

It’s difficult to claim that atheists are immoral given the following facts. States in the US with lower levels of religiosity also have lower levels of property crime [3] and teen pregnancy rates due to irresponsible sexual practices [2]. Atheists are also less likely to rob a bank and commit murder or sexual assault and there is a lower percentage in prison than the general population [8].

A study comparing religiosity in developed democracies with societal health found a strong correlation between secularization and improved social health. The more secular these countries were the lower the homicide, teen pregnancy and abortion rates [4]. Secular countries also tend to have lower contracted sexually transmitted diseases due to responsible sexual practices [5].

Equally Happy

I’ll concede that there is mixed findings on religiosity and happiness in the US and when looking at religious countries in a vacuum. It looks like being an ideological minority in your country may affect your happiness. Atheists in the Bible belt may feel isolated and alienated from their peers. This is particularly true in the US where polls indicate we are among the most disliked and distrusted groups [6]. The study indicated that in some areas we are the most distrusted group, which is an appalling example of groundless prejudice.

This is balanced by the fact that the world’s most secular countries are also the world’s happiest countries according to the 2010 Gallup data. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands are the world’s happiest countries and are some of the least religious countries in the world.

This is confirmed by the world database of happiness, an organization that compiles survey and research data on happiness in various countries. People who reject their religion report feeling happier and more liberated in there secular lives [9]. Non-theists are also less likely to experience significant bouts of depression [11].

Atheists have successful marriages

In the US Atheists have lower divorce rates when compared with religious groups. While 27% of adult born again Christians and 29% of Baptists have had at least one divorce only 21% of atheists have had a divorce and they tie with catholic’s having the lowest rate [1]. This is especially compelling considering that atheists have no outside reason to stay together and that Christians are commanded not to divorce in 1 Corinthians 7:12-13 and a few other scriptures.

Atheists are often high achieving

Surveys have shown that atheists are better educated and are in a higher income bracket when compared to believers [8]. Atheists have better sex lives according surveys and psychological research and those who reconvert from religion report an improved sex life (this isn’t about sexual promiscuity, atheists also have a higher success rate in marriage as seen above). More secular prosperous countries tend to have better access to health care, job security and education. Atheists tend to score high on measures of intelligence especially verbal ability and scientific literacy [9] and even score better than believers on tests of religious knowledge [8].


[1] http://atheism.about.com......

[2] http://secularist10.hubpages.com......

[3] http://secularist10.hubpages.com......

[4] http://www.skeptic.com......

[5] http://ffrf.org......

[6] http://reason.com......

[7] http://www.psychologytoday.com......

[8] http://www.atheistscholar.org......

[9] http://www.washingtonpost.com......

[10] http://en.wikipedia.org......

[11] http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...

imabench

Con

"There are plenty of Christian retards, don’t get me wrong, but they’re balanced by smug atheist jerks that exist mostly to aggravate Christians."

I call bullsh** on that one..... The US is roughly 75% Christian, which means there are more Christians in the US then any other country in the world..... 75% of the US population comes out to about 240 MILLION people. Compare that to the measly 7% of Americans who dont believe in God, which comes out to about 22 million people....

So Christians literally outnumber Atheists 10 to 1 in this country, which means it is outlandish to claim that the combined retardation and douchbaggery of ALL those christians somehow is equal to what Atheists throw back....

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...




"Your average sensible Christian suffers devastating blows to life quality in the middle of this crazy-off having to deal with pressure from both sides"

Oh please, the average Christian is a financially well off middle class person whose life is almost not impacted at all by the idiotic actions of religious extremists, and the barely audible counter-protests of Atheists.....






"Say you’re an average every day Christian just minding your own business hoping for an afterlife and after a rough week just want to enjoy your favorite ice cream flavor, Jesus. Here comes the atheist bully to slap to the cone out of your hand and explain why you’re an idiot for enjoying it."

We can safely say that such a thing has never ever happened...... ever

"instead of a friendly congrats from an atheist you’ll get a smug comment like, “what about the hundreds who died?” or, “Seriously, you know headaches go away don’t you?”"

And Christians do the same thing to anyone who they feel isnt religious enough..... Ever run into an idiot who ended a conversation by saying something along the lines of 'Ill Pray for you'? thats just christian talk for 'go f*ck yourself'.....

So dont act like this only happens one way.... Its a two way street, and given the massive number of christians compared to atheists, logistically christians are douchier to the not very religious then atheists are.





"In Europe you can enjoy a cheap laugh at Pat Roberson’s expense but don’t have to deal with his brand of idiocy in your everyday"

But if you live in Europe, then chances are you pay an a**load of your income in taxes then the uber-religious Christians in the US.....




"Atheists are equally moral"

Not arguing that they arent.





" Atheists in the Bible belt may feel isolated and alienated from their peers. This is particularly true in the US where polls indicate we are among the most disliked and distrusted groups [6]. The study indicated that in some areas we are the most distrusted group, which is an appalling example of groundless prejudice."

I thought I was the one who was to make the argument for why Atheists have it worse?


"Denmark, Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands are the world’s happiest countries and are some of the least religious countries in the world."

Yes but even those countries have way more Christians then Atheists in them.... The country with the highest proportion of Atheists in Europe is France, and we all know that France is in sh*t's creek when it comes to quality of life due to inhumanely high taxes and snails being their main source of food.

http://en.wikipedia.org...





"While 27% of adult born again Christians and 29% of Baptists have had at least one divorce only 21% of atheists have had a divorce and they tie with catholic’s having the lowest rate"

28% and 21% isnt that big of a difference though......



============================================================================================

Pro makes some solid points in arguing that Atheists have it reasonably well in Europe, but last I checked there are 5 other populated continents you also have to take into account..... Let me get down to the basic roots of why Atheists are on average worse off then Christians in quality of life.

1) Atheists have been persecuted by societies WAAAAAAAAY more then christians have.

Throughout the middle ages, if you were irreligious or an atheist, you were put to death on the spot if not tortured first.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

2) Persecution of Atheists continued well into the 20th century when in WWII, Hitler sent atheists to concentration camps primarily because they were atheists

http://en.wikipedia.org...

3) In Western countries, studies have found that Atheists are distrusted just as much as rapists

http://en.wikipedia.org...

4) In Brazil, Atheists are the most hated demographic out of all of them

http://en.wikipedia.org...

5) There are 7 states in the US that ban Atheists from holding public office. (Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, both Carolinas, Tennessee, and Texas)

http://en.wikipedia.org...

6) There are numerous states in the Middle East have A DEATH PENALTY for atheists.... They are Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, Somalia, the UAE, Qatar, Yemen, Sudan, Mauritania, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.

7) Some Atheists dont have any legal status at all in Iran, Jordan, and Indonesia

8) Countries go bat sh** crazy when celebrating religious holidays that Atheists cant do anything but just ignore.... If you think Christmas commercials are annoying in November, imagine how much it pisses off Atheists.....

9) In many countries such as Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Kuwait and Jordan - publication of atheist or humanist views on religion are totally banned or strictly limited under laws prohibiting "blasphemy".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

10) In some cases, soldiers in the US military are forced to attend evangelical Christian events.

http://rt.com...

11) Americans disrust Atheists even more then MUSLIMS

http://www.thejuryexpert.com...

12) President George HW Bush literally went on record saying that Atheists cant be considered patriots ""I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God"

13) Reagan routinely shat on Atheism while in term and well before and after he was president.... He said stuff like "“If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be one nation gone under.”............. "“Within the covers of the Bible are the answers for all the problems men face.”........... "“Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged.”

http://www.goodreads.com...



So yeah, while Atheists may have it reasonably well in Europe, they still can be put to death in countries throughout the Middle East for being Atheist, banned from holding office because they are Atheist, are vastly outnumbered by those who are religious, taxed almost to death in countries that do have a lot of Atheists, are more distrusted then rapists and Muslims, they are not subtly and openly prejudiced against, and they have been the enemy or looked down upon by just about every President the United States ever had......... Which is way worse then Christians have it.
Debate Round No. 2
2-D

Pro

Huh, well now I wish I hadn’t all but wasted the first half of round one straw manning myself. I thought Con might try to derail the conversation referencing Christian retards so I tried to humor that a bit proving that I don’t get trolling at all unless it’s self inflicted. The point of my original debate on this topic was that discrimination of Atheists is ridiculous and unjustified and Con has done a great job representing the problem.


Atheist Jerks, Westboro style Christians and a sarcasm fail

Yeah, the atheist jerk argument is ridiculous, even presented sarcastically, so I am not seriously going to try to defend it. I didn’t see how you could say who annoys the other more but the ten to one ratio is a good start. I don’t see that either side is hurting the other much. See my section on Atheist discrimination in the U.S.

Where Atheist persecution is potentially high there are few Atheists to abuse

Where effective religious indoctrination is high leading to potential atheist persecution there are very few Atheists. The population is virtually non-existent in the Middle East, Africa and South America where Con’s persecution figures are located [16].

I’ll address Con’s discrimination arguments in clumps:

Atheists in the United States

3) I couldn’t find a reference to Western countries in the original source and it looks like the distrust of atheist survey was in the United States:

http://www2.psych.ubc.ca...

5) ,10), 11), 12), 13)

Con has cited many clear examples of discrimination but has not shown that this has a high impact on Atheist lives. He has not refuted that Atheists in the United States are moral committing less violent crime, have more successful marriages than Christians as a whole and are high achieving. Further, that happiness data is for the most part mixed and that those losing their religion report to leading happier more fulfilling lives reporting less instances of long term depression. That this is true in spite of the many instances of blatant prejudice and distrust is surprising.

The United States then is a good example that not only are atheists enjoying life but they are resilient to the discrimination that they have to deal with.

Atheists in the past

1) & 2) I don’t see that my resolution implies atheists throughout time since I was speaking in present tense arguably about the last couple generations and prospects for the near future. If Con can dispute this I’ll expand on these points.

Christian persecution around the world is more severe

Around the world 100 million Christians are being threatened or persecuted [12]. Pope Benedict pointed out that Christians are subject to the worst persecution compared to any other group [15]. Around 100,000 Christians every year are violently murdered because of their faith and 200,000 are denied basic human rights. The Majority of countries that persecute atheists come down much harder or equally torment Christians.

6) All of the countries you mentioned carry a death penalty for apostasy, anyone who renounces or criticizes Islam including Christians are subject to execution [13].

7) Yes this is common and often means you cannot out yourself as an atheist on an official form avoiding persecution.

In Iran if you convert to Christianity you receive the death penalty. Evangelism is illegal and one pastor was held for 3 years for apostasy [14]. Many Christians are forced to leave their homes and the country.

In the Jordan converts to Christianity can have their marriages invalidated and their children taken by the state.

In Indonesia Muslim groups are growing more violent to Christians with minimal government intervention.

8) Christmas is pretty tame and atheists only tend to act out only when nativity and not secular displays are allowed on public property. As holidays go there is nothing worse than the morning till dusk fast from food and water imposed on mainly on Christians and a few Atheists by Muslims in the Middle East for the entire month of Ramadan.

9) I won’t cover these countries individually but I agree that there are often free speech violations that Christians also have to deal with in these countries. Anti blasphemy laws usually mean you cannot spread Christianity to Muslims.

Atheists in Brazil

4) As we saw in America, strong discrimination does not have a major impact on general well being. When atheists admit their unbelief it’s their choice, Brazilian Atheists have enough confidence to have their own organization and to post billboards: http://www.patheos.com...

Atheist populations are centered in the better areas on earth while Christian populations are waning in these areas

The Majority of the roughly 500-750 million Atheists live in Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan and Israel [16]. These are areas that also have high rates of societal health like industrialization, a high standard of living, equality, housing and health care. These are also some of the happiest countries in the world [17].

The United States actually is the major exception where there are high levels of Christianity along with good standards of living.

last I checked there are 5 other populated continents you also have to take into account

I think I have shown that there is no reason to suspect that atheism itself is the cause of a worse life, which was my intended point.


It was my intention to connect quality of life with two causes, Christianity and Atheism. In similar circumstances atheists have fairly high quality of life when compared to Christians. I did not see that some may take my point as a comparison of the sum total of atheists have a high quality life compared to Christians but I have been able to show that Atheists live in the best areas and that trends point to a high quality life for atheists.

-

Atheist persecution is not a major problem since they do not live in the areas where it could be an issue and Christians get it far worse. We’re resilient to discrimination in the United States and are a smaller minority here anyway then the areas where we represent a larger portion of the population anyway. Atheist populations are centered in the happiest areas with high levels of societal health and tolerance.

My source links

Anyone checking on my sources please use the links below and not last round. Apparently you can’t cut sources from an old debate and paste to a word doc.

[1] http://atheism.about.com...

[2] http://secularist10.hubpages.com...

[3] http://secularist10.hubpages.com...

[4] http://www.skeptic.com...

[5] http://ffrf.org...

[6] http://reason.com...

[7] http://www.psychologytoday.com...

[8] http://www.atheistscholar.org...

[9] http://www.washingtonpost.com...

[10] http://en.wikipedia.org...

[11] http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...

[12] http://abcnews.go.com...

[13] http://www.secularism.org.uk...

[14] http://www.worldwatchlist.us...

[15] http://en.wikipedia.org...

[16] http://www.investigatingatheism.info...

[17] http://www.happyplanetindex.org...

imabench

Con

"I thought Con might try to derail the conversation referencing Christian retards so I tried to humor that a bit proving that I don’t get trolling at all unless it’s self inflicted."

To be fair I am kinda known for trolling so youre not really at fault for preparing for me to give trollish arguments. If you wish to redo this debate then Id understand and would comply.



"Where effective religious indoctrination is high leading to potential atheist persecution there are very few Atheists. The population is virtually non-existent in the Middle East, Africa and South America where Con’s persecution figures are located"

The reason there appears to be a low number of Atheists is because there are government that do not let atheists have an option of registering as an atheist. In many countries, Atheists are often forced to choose to identify with one of the major religions. Nations like Iran, Jordan, and Thailand all make it impossible to label yourself as an Atheist, and in many other equally insane countries, Atheists do not identify as atheists out of fear of being put to death by the government

http://en.wikipedia.org...




"Con has cited many clear examples of discrimination but has not shown that this has a high impact on Atheist lives."

Being banned from holding public office, being forced to attend evangelical services, being distrusted in America more then Muslims, and being percieved as the Bane of America and nationalism by President after President certainly does have an impact on Atheist lives.....

"The United States then is a good example that not only are atheists enjoying life but they are resilient to the discrimination that they have to deal with."

But they are being discriminated against, which is what I am getting at here. Christians just about own this country and every aspect of it while Atheists in your own admission are subjected to discrimination, that clearly implies that the two do not enjoy the same quality of life.




"round 100,000 Christians every year are violently murdered because of their faith and 200,000 are denied basic human rights. The Majority of countries that persecute atheists come down much harder or equally torment Christians."

Muslim countries do come down on Christians just as hard as Atheists, I shall not deny that both are discriminated against in the Middle East. However Atheists face discrimination in more countries then Christians do since both are discriminated against in the Middle East, but only one of them (Atheists) are discriminated against in America, while both of them are just about equal in European countries.




"Christmas is pretty tame and atheists only tend to act out only when nativity and not secular displays are allowed on public property"

Which lets face it is just about everywhere.





"As we saw in America, strong discrimination does not have a major impact on general well being"

It kind of does though.... Especially in America. The Jim Crow laws and segregation that discriminated against blacks had a MASSIVE impact on their well being in America, and while Atheists arent subjected to that same level of discrimination, its erroneous to claim that strong discrimination =/= a major impact on general well being.





"The Majority of the roughly 500-750 million Atheists live in Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan and Israel [16]. These are areas that also have high rates of societal health like industrialization, a high standard of living, equality, housing and health care."

And Christians outnumber Atheists in just about each and every one of those countries too.





"Atheist persecution is not a major problem since they do not live in the areas where it could be an issue"

Except that they do, they are denied the basic right to label themselves as an Atheist and those that do can face the death penalty in a dozen countries.

"and Christians get it far worse."

Christians get it equally as bad, its an unsubstantiated opinion to claim they get it far worse and to simply ignore everything posted about how Atheists are persecuted.




"Anyone checking on my sources please use the links below and not last round. Apparently you can’t cut sources from an old debate and paste to a word doc."

Oh yeah i made that mistake a couple times. The reason that happens is that source websites are curtailed in the official debate with a '......' at the end of it, meaning if you copy paste the link then youre not actually copying the entire link itself, just an obstructed and abridged version of it.
Debate Round No. 3
2-D

Pro

Points of agreement:

-Atheists are equally moral
Often one of the first questions from a believer in the U.S., stunned that I exist, is a question about why I don’t go around stealing and murdering for the fun of it. I hope they stay believers since that’s even a question… I’m glad, for once, I didn’t have to explain why I don’t want to kill people.

-I want to strongly concede a point.

“And Christians do the same thing to anyone who they feel isn’t religious enough..... Ever run into an idiot who ended a conversation by saying something along the lines of 'Ill Pray for you'? That’s just Christian talk for 'go f*ck yourself'.....”

I laugh every time I read that. It can be a little condescending or just awkward opening a conversation by saying you’ll pray for an atheist. Close an argument like that and it looks like you’re trying to be cheap and insulting.

If you wish to redo this debate then I’d understand and would comply.”

No this turned into one of my better debates. Feel free to ‘troll’ me anytime. If you can make my arguments look ridiculous that is just a more entertaining way to prove me wrong. I had a good time making fun of Atheists/Christians R1 I just forgot to make legitimate points too.


“Atheists are often forced to choose to identify with one of the major religions.”

This is a problem for Atheist activists who would like to take a stand and risk death/imprisonment in the process. There are definitely examples of atheists risking their life to spread secularism in these countries to their credit.

This is also what makes it difficult to say anything or determine how significant Atheist populations are in these areas. However, the figures we have indicate that there are very few Atheists in these countries [16].

While Atheists in the Middle East are often underground there are still likely very few as the data suggests.

There is a reason that secularism has grown in certain areas and is linked to specific causes. Atheism grows where there are high levels of modernism, individualism, multiculturalism, high levels of education: particularly in science, Human Rights and Internet access [18]. While some of these issues are improving in these countries they have a very poor track record in areas that both improve life quality and fuel secularization.

Atheist resilience v.s. Discrimination and life quality

I won’t deny that high levels of discrimination, particularly in the U.S., likely have an impact on atheist lives. I have conceded that this has an impact on one area, happiness, especially in the U.S. South. I have been able to show that they are doing great in spite of discrimination and concede that we are a small 7% minority here in the U.S. and tend to live in areas with minimal discrimination.

“Atheists face discrimination in more countries then Christians do”

I agree and Christians often enjoy a majority status. Don’t forget about India where the 31 million Christians are often harassed or intimidated… by Muslims. Wait, what? “Hinduism as a religion could well be one of the most accommodating in the world. Rather than confront and destroy, it has a tendency to welcome and assimilate [15].” I’m converting.

Moving on, this is really about relative percentages of Christian/Atheist populations in persecuted areas. Atheists are subject to persecution in more countries but as a whole there is a smaller percentage of an atheists under persecution. Religious indoctrination works so there just are not a lot of atheists in persecuted areas as I have shown.


Atheist v.s. Christian population centers

I definitely do not think Christianity is the cause but unfortunately Christianity/religiosity tends to correlate with poor indicators of societal health [4]. This includes violent crime, low life expectancy, STD infection, Child mortality rates and teen pregnancy. The trend is reversed for atheists, as I pointed out first round, leading to better lives for Atheists overall.

This is partly because the slim majority of Christians, 1.3 billion, live in the disadvantaged Global South with 50% living in either sub sub-Saharan Africa
24%, South America & Mexico 21% and 5% in the Middle East [18,19,20]. This means nearly half of the Christian population is centered in impoverished areas of the third world and a significant minority are subject to violent persecution in the Middle East.

The Global South, with three fourths of the World population, controls just 20% of the world revenue and only owns only 10% of manufacturing industries [21].

Atheist discrimination when compared to racial minorities

I don’t think this is a fair comparison given that atheists have the option to keep there minority views to themselves and enjoy a distinct advantage in many areas including education, high income locations etc.

I agree that it’s intuitive to assume that strong discrimination does have an impact on life quality but my point stands that Atheists are still doing great in the U.S.

Atheists are outnumbered everywhere

I agree Athesists are outnumbered in virtually any country we live in and certainly globally (I think we’re now 13% of global population). Just being outnumbered does not cause problems in and of itself.

Christian V.S. Atheist persecution the Middle East


I’ll concede that hatred and intolerance is equal for both Atheists and Christians. The problem is that Atheists can always pretend to follow the Islamic faith, avoiding persecution, and it looks Atheists in these areas are often closeted. There is often no option to out themselves on an official form so they often avoid State and Muslim extremist persecution.

Christians are commanded not to deny Jesus in Matt. 10:33 and to not worship other Gods in the first commandment. This and other scriptures make it very difficult for Christians to blend in by pretending to be Muslim. They are commanded to group together in Hebrews 10:25 and to worship, pray etc making them an easy, obvious target in areas where there is persecution.

While there are many examples of Christian persecution it is difficult to find them for Atheists. In the Sudan 1.5 million Christians have been murdered since 1984 [15]. After five Christian Churches were bombed in 2004 tens of thousands of Christians fled Iraq. In Indonesia in 1999 tens of thousands of Christians were murdered by various Muslim gunman. Groups trying to impose Sharia law in Indonesia have destroyed 600 churches.

I don’t doubt that Atheists would be treated in a similar way but they have the option to keep their mouths shut. Christians are just easier targets in these countries leading to the 100,000 annual Christian martyrs.

It Gets Better

We already are trying to steal the LGBT ‘out campaign’ so I’ll try to capitalize on another. I pointed out earlier that this debate was about the current situation and prospects for the near future that affect moral.

We’re growing everywhere and as seen in Europe and other areas discrimination is greatly reduced when Atheists are a significant portion of the population. Many Atheists alive can look forward to a vindication of their view in their lifetime. Some project that Atheists will be the global majority by 2041 [22]. At the very least Atheism is more and more becoming an acceptable position.

-

Good debate, as I have pointed out, statistics show that Atheists enjoy high quality lives in spite of discrimination. They live in the best areas on earth and many causes of secularization improve societies as well. Unfortunately Christian persecution causes a lot of problems around the world and they do not have the option to keep quiet as atheists do.

[18] http://www.humanreligions.info...

[19] http://www.pewforum.org...

[20] http://en.wikipedia.org...

[21] http://en.wikipedia.org...

[22] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

imabench

Con

"I had a good time making fun of Atheists/Christians R1 I just forgot to make legitimate points too."

lol I did that every time I end up in a serious debate the first few times I actually got in them. The reason I lost them so often is because I spent too much time f***ing around rather then give strong arguments, so I know what youre experiencing.

Lets bring this to a close then shall we?


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"This is also what makes it difficult to say anything or determine how significant Atheist populations are in these areas. However, the figures we have indicate that there are very few Atheists in these countries"

If there are indeed very few atheists in the Middle East, then the fact that they are so heavily outnumbered to both Christians and Muslims on top of still being persecuted for being Atheists still doesnt take away much of the plight they endure compared to the other option...... That there are a significant number of atheists who may rival the populations of religious believers, yet still end up being put to death or denied rights because of their religious affiliations.

Either way, they still have it pretty sh*tty




" I have been able to show that they (Atheists) are doing great in spite of discrimination and concede that we (atheists) are a small 7% minority here in the U.S. and tend to live in areas with minimal discrimination"

But for every atheist that lives relatively free of discrimination in a more tolerant part of the US though there is also an atheist living somewhere in the Bible Belt or the deep south who if he/she were to come out to his family about being an atheist, he/she would probably be disowned by them, and the community, and be subjected to pure hell that you can only find in a religious crazy hell-hole like the South.




"Religious indoctrination works so there just are not a lot of atheists in persecuted areas as I have shown."

But religious indoctrination is used a hell fo a lot more on Atheists then on Christians in those parts of the world since even in countries where Christians are persecuted, they still mostly have the right and opportunity to label themselves as Christians, live as Christians, and still have certain rights whereas Atheists do NOT enjoy that luxury to the same extent that Christians in those areas since many of those nations make it flat out illegal to be an Atheist.




"This means nearly half of the Christian population is centered in impoverished areas of the third world and a significant minority are subject to violent persecution in the Middle East"

This is true, but that still doesnt negate the fact that the OTHER half of the Christian population are living in AND running the most powerful and well-off nations and economies in the world.





"I agree that it’s intuitive to assume that strong discrimination does have an impact on life quality but my point stands that Atheists are still doing great in the U.S."

They are doing pretty decent in the US compared to the Middle East, just not nearly as good as Christians are




"In the Sudan 1.5 million Christians have been murdered since 1984"

Well most of those were due to the outbreak and ills of the Sudan civil war, which just happened to last from 1983 to about 2005
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The war itself only caused 2 million deaths, but it triggered a famine and so much political instability and infighting that the country literally split in two about a year ago.

So its not like Sudan has a policy of putting Christians to death, they just happened to be civilian casualties as a result of being plunged into of one of the worst Civil Wars in modern history.




"We (Atheists) are growing everywhere and as seen in Europe and other areas discrimination is greatly reduced when Atheists are a significant portion of the population. Many Atheists alive can look forward to a vindication of their view in their lifetime"

Last time I checked, Atheists are still viewed as less trustworthy then Muslms and pedophiles in this country, the odds of Atheists having their views vindicated within their own lifetimes doesnt stand a snowball's chance in hell. Maybe one day it will happen, but in our lifetimes? I wouldnt bet on it.



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Heres the basic scoreboard for those of you who just kinda skimmed this debate and just want to see the final arguments.

1) Christians and Atheists both have it absolutely horrible in the Middle East. On a scale of 1 to 10 of being well off, both of them start at a -5, thats a negative 5, due to how wretched they have it. The fact that there are more Christians in the Middle East then Atheists being subjected to pure hell over there pushes their score down even lower to negative -8, whereas Atheists not even being able to call themselves Atheists and it being way more illegal to be an Atheist then to be a Christian maybe pushed them down to a negative 6

Current Score:
Christians = -8, Atheists = -6

2) Europe on the other hand is the exact opposite story. Both of them are doing fantastic over there, they are almost even equal in number in certain countries, literally nobody gives a sh** if youre a Christian or an Atheist, and being one instead of the other llterally has no effect on your rights or freedoms. Both score a +10 in Europe

That puts the tally for Christians at +2, Atheists at +4

3) THEN we come to the United States..... Which really changes the score here. Christians basically own this country and have owned it for the past 250 years now. Atheists are banned from holding office in many states, Atheists dont have as many rights either, literally every president in US history has shat on Atheists as if they arent even real people, Atheists are despised in the US even more then Muslims, pedophiles, polygamists, and even scientologists, many of them cannot openly be an Atheist without being discriminated against while no Christian ever has to worry about that............ And on top of ALL of that, they also happened to be outnumber by Christians 10-1 in one of the most religious countries in the world: The United States

http://www.outofur.com...

The fact is that Atheists have it kinda iffy in the US. Certainly better then they would in the Middle East, but not nearly as good as they have it in Europe. Christians on the other hand have it so much more amazingly well off in the United States then Atheists since they dominate this country in population, and arent subjected to the kind of discrimination and deep distrust that Atheists are faced with.

Atheists get a +4, which is just slightly above neutral, and Christians get a +10 since Christians in the US literally have it just about as good as Atheists in Europe. The only difference between Christians in Europe and Christians in the US is that Christians in Europe dont constitute a massive majority of the population like Christians in the US. Thats literally the only difference.

That brings our final score roughly to:

Christians: +12
Atheists: +8

Feel free to tinker with how many points you would give to each side per region, but most of the time Christians will usually have a higher score then Atheists in terms of how well of they are in the end...... This is simply because both are treated almost equally sh*tty in the Middle East, and both have it equally great in Europe, yet Christians absolutely have it better off in the US compared to Atheists, and they do so by a wide amount, which means that Atheists overall in this world enjoy a slightly lesser quality of life then christians do
Debate Round No. 4
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
@SONOFGOD No, no one has done this yet. Being associated with a group that is occasionally idiotic is human. Do you agree with everything Protestants in the United States do?
Posted by SONOFGOD2013 3 years ago
SONOFGOD2013
Your calling yourself retartded. Did you even notice that?
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
Janet- Yes, this is a single scripture referenced to exhaustion out of several dozen scriptures that describe alternate steps to salvation. The bible indicates many alternate ways to be saved. There are slippery apologetics to funnel all of them through this one scripture and I don't want to get into that mental torture with you.

Consider this, some Christians see this as a mere technicality and believe that atheists can be saved through Jesus without a belief. There are many liberal denominations today that do not take the bible literally and do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven. The Catholic Pope (they are the slim majority of Christians 50+%), recently commented that atheists could be saved in no way indicating that we would have to believe. This was quickly corrected by an official statement but many Christians do not agree with that statement.

There are other Christian documents that contradict this statement and Christians should be aware of them. Before the New Testament cannon there were around 20 gospels 4 of which were accepted by a show of hands in the cannon meeting. The divinity of Jesus was not initially the take of the early church, there was a major split over Jesus' divinity and both sides referred to the other as heretics. There were many religious writings/accounts published on both sides of the debate. There are a lot of writings that refer to Jesus as just a prophet. If you want me to source this I'll do it in a debate.
Posted by janetsanders733 3 years ago
janetsanders733
@2D, Well if Jesus made the claim "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." Are you saying that statement is dependent on someone's interpretation?
Posted by Greematthew 3 years ago
Greematthew
Imabench, I didn't know you thought all Christians were like that.
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
@ Bench btw if you concede that, for the most part, quality of life is at least equal for my original argument (second half) we can stick to the more important issue of how Christian retards and Atheist jerks or whatever else effect quality of life. Just didn't want to lose over some BoP issue.
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
@bench looking forward to your response to my wall of text, it's my strategy bore opponents into a forfeit.

@SCHUMAN8R Sure, I mean, I'll challenge you to respond to my canned debate on this topic seeing as you're interested.

@janetsanders733 look my point is that Christian world views vary quite a bit. I'm open to the idea that the major distinctions can be boiled down to a few hundred denominations but doesn't that prove my point that the bible is ambiguous and open to broad interpretation like any secular world view?

The study was from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity endorsed by the Pew foundation. It's legitimate and not a lie. There are likely 41,000+ denominations of Christianity: http://www.pewforum.org...
Posted by janetsanders733 3 years ago
janetsanders733
@2-D" You stated your opinion but that's all. Many flavors of Christianity say different things, I probably would have said the most important thing is a personal relationship with Jesus. There are more than 40 thousand denominations, your answer does not represent the more than 2 billion Christians or the bible in any way."

Well first off 2-D, The "40,000" denominations thing is a lie. Second it doesn't matter what denominations say. It matters what God's word says. I am not a christian because I go to church. I am a christian because of what Christ did for me and for you, that is not based on the world, but on Christ.
Posted by SCHUMAN8R 3 years ago
SCHUMAN8R
If I give you my word that I will not forfeit would you lift the minimum 10 debate requirement please?
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
@Godchooseslife You stated your opinion but that's all. Many flavors of Christianity say different things, I probably would have said the most important thing is a personal relationship with Jesus. There are more than 40 thousand denominations, your answer does not represent the more than 2 billion Christians or the bible in any way.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by dtaylor971 3 years ago
dtaylor971
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Reasons for voting decision: I'm going with con, barely on this one.
Vote Placed by HostileBelief 3 years ago
HostileBelief
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Reasons for voting decision: What we see from Imabench is a totally unprofessional and an unfair look at the Atheist Community. Instead of countering pro's arguments, Con resorts to ad hominem, ad populum and pretty much very fallacy in the arguments you shouldn't bring up book. While I congratulate Pro for his hard work in this debate and a lot of research put into his arguments, I condemn Con the most part using Wikipedia not that Wikipedia is bad but more effort could have been put in. This entire debate was worthless. Even Con admitted in the end that he spent more time "trolling" than he did with actually making a statement. VOTES GO TO PRO!
Vote Placed by Bullish 3 years ago
Bullish
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Reasons for voting decision: On conduct, I feel that imabench used more vulgar terms and is trolling the debate. But he's imabench so the point is tied. On arguments, I feel that Pro was anticipating a debate about the inherent happiness that religiosity and non-religiosity causes, and was simply not prepared to argue that atheists have to deal with significantly more people who are different from them; Pro cites one important statistic (that most Christians live in poorer counties), but drops and concedes other parts of the resolution such as population ration and discrimination from Christians. Pro had more and better sources (22 total) while Con pretty much used one Wikipedia page all the way through.
Vote Placed by TheAntidoter 3 years ago
TheAntidoter
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Reasons for voting decision: Placeholder vote until I come up witha winner.