The Instigator
easternhitman-90
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Jerry947
Pro (for)
Winning
10 Points

Atonement of sin(Christianity)

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Jerry947
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 254 times Debate No: 91689
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (4)

 

easternhitman-90

Con

I want to debate any christian regarding the atonement of sin according to christianity(it's logical explanation), also if Jesus was really crucified(a subtopic)
Jerry947

Pro

The Existence of Jesus:

Almost all scholars in our age believe that Jesus was a real person (http://www.is-there-a-god.info...). There are many ancient historians (http://www.gotquestions.org...) that have written about him and we even have writings from the people that knew Jesus (The New Testament). You should have no doubt that Jesus was a real person. The famous historian Josephus for example stated that "Jesus was a wise teacher who was crucified by Pontius Pilate" In other words, we also have proof that Jesus was crucified. The Bible affirms all of this and even explains why Jesus' body went missing from the empty tomb. More on that later...

Jesus claimed to be God and his friends and his brothers claimed that he was God. Josephus tells us that Jesus was a good teacher. But it is a mistake to believe that Jesus was only a good teacher. C.S. Lewis stated that "is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg; or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God: or else a madman or something worse." People of the time period indicate that Jesus was a good person and a good teacher...but you can't be these things if you are insane.

Lets go back to the empty tomb. The historian Luke states (chapter 24) that the tomb was found empty by women. How did this happen? The best explanation (http://www.reasonablefaith.org...) is that Jesus was who he said he was and did in fact rise from the dead. People might claim that Jesus never died but this is silly considering that we know he was crucified and that he was buried. No one could survive that process. Others claim that the body never went missing which is ridiculous considering the Romans and the Jews could have merely shown Christians the body and then their faith would be destroyed. And on top of that, there are people such as the New Testament writers that claim they along with 500 other people saw Jesus after his death. Even the brothers of Jesus (who previously disbelieved in the deity of their brother) came to believe that Jesus was God. Think about that for a moment...what would it take for you to believe that your brother (if you have one) was God? Would it take a resurrection? Nevertheless they became Christians.
Sources: http://www.gotquestions.org...
Also used the Bible.

Here are the specific sources that mention Jesus outside of the Bible...

Tacitus wrote that "Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome...."

Pliny wrote that "They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food " but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

The Babylonian Talmud says "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald ... cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Lucian wrote that "The Christians ... worship a man to this day " the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws."

Source: http://www.bethinking.org...

And again, the eye witnesses who wrote the four gospels (written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) also wrote that Jesus was killed on the cross and was missing three days later.

How do we know the Bible recorded History right?

People that the Bible mentioned have been proven to have existed: http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...

Events in the Bible have been confirmed to have happened: http://www.christiananswers.net...

And the Bible has been supported by archaeological findings: https://carm.org...

So the Bible is a reliable source. The gospel writer Luke has around 80 confirmed facts proven in the book of Acts and I just could go on and on (John has 59).

As for the atonement of sin...my opponent is going to need to fully explain what their issue is with this doctrine before I can respond.

I thank my opponent for this debate and I look forward to hear what they have to say.
Debate Round No. 1
easternhitman-90

Con

I have few points to express with you , but first of all ,consider these verses:-
1 Corinthians 15:13-14 KJV
"But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: [14] And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain,YOUR FAITH IS ALSO IN VAIN."

Are Judah and the Jews who killed Jesus going to hell ,as they contributed to the (so called)killing of Jesus(as you claim)? Shouldn't you thank Judah and the Jews as they crucified Jesus for the atonement of sin? And if you say it was already planned by God or Jesus predicted before that he'll be betrayed and the Jews will kill him, then do you think the God of the bible is just that he planned that Judah would be a betrayer and he also planned that the Jews will kill Jesus? Then aren't Judah and the Jews innocent if it was part of a plan of God? So ,are Judah and the Jews who contributed to the death of Jesus guilty for what they've done?

Also if Jesus really was crucified and resurrected ,then why was he in disguise as a Gardener?(John 20:15), in fact he was in dusguise as a Gardner in order the Jews wouldn't see him( imagine someone is dead and still afraid to be killed again, or why would a spirit wear as a gardener?). And you christians claim Jesus is God in flesh ,then when he died ,and when he appeared to Mary(as in John 20:15) ,and to his disciples ,what form was he in ,was he still in a form of Jesus (flesh), or as God himself? In fact he Jesus himself said that the spirit has no bones nor flesh ,yet he had both of them after his crucifixion(as you claim) as seen in Luke 24:39.

I'd like to conclude with:-

"And because of their saying: We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they killed him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! And those who differ theirin are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; for surely ,they killed him not." Qur'an 4:157

"Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will)." Qur'an 3:64
Jerry947

Pro

1 Corinthians 15:13-14 was just saying that if Jesus wasn't resurrected, then the whole Christian faith would be pointless. But Paul literally writes in 1 Corinthians 15:20 "But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep."

A few verses earlier he wrote "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve."

So my opponent has no chance of getting the Bible to somehow invalidate the Resurrection.

In response to what my opponent wrote, God knew that if he were to send his son, that he would be murdered. The Jews were not made to do what they did but God used immoral behavior to do something good. Although they sinned by murdering Jesus, God used this event to save humanity. So the Jews are guilty for murdering Jesus and we should thank God for consistently making good out of the bad things we do.

In John 20:15, Jesus was not dressed up as a Gardener. He was walking in the garden when he appeared to Mary and she simply mistook him for a gardener (since that is where they work). As for who Jesus was, he was in his resurrected body which Paul also talks above in 1 Corinthians 15. So he is both man and God.

People thought that Jesus was some kind of ghost and they couldn't believe that a body actually raised from the dead. So Paul goes on to lay the argument down for the Resurrection of Jesus. Some Christians believe that Jesus didn't have any blood after the resurrection. I think that is weird so I believe that it is more logical that he was just saying that his body isn't the same as it was before his death. His body was now perfect and it wasn't just flesh and bones like it once was. That isn't to say that he didn't still have flesh and bones, but that he is now in a perfect body.

As for the Qur'an, the claims made aren't accurate. The evidence for the crucifixion is supplied by the gospel writers who lived during that time period. And those claims are further back up by the non-Biblical sources I mentioned earlier.

The Qur'an on the the other hand was written 400 years later. So I choose to go with the gospel accounts (written before 70 AD).

Which do you honestly think is more accurate?
Debate Round No. 2
easternhitman-90

Con

easternhitman-90 forfeited this round.
Jerry947

Pro

I will extend my arguments so that things will be fair.
Debate Round No. 3
easternhitman-90

Con

easternhitman-90 forfeited this round.
Jerry947

Pro

Anyone there?
Debate Round No. 4
easternhitman-90

Con

easternhitman-90 forfeited this round.
Jerry947

Pro

Sorry to see that my opponent couldn't find the time to post. This is a pretty interesting subject...
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by DiEgO123100 9 months ago
DiEgO123100
because it's a debate. why else?
Posted by ViceRegent 9 months ago
ViceRegent
And why should we care what you think?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Udel 8 months ago
Udel
easternhitman-90Jerry947Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro says most scholars believe Jesus was real. He says we should accept Jesus word and that Jesus rose from the dead. He then showed people mentioned Jesus outside the bible. None of this has anything to do with sin, but ok. Con says Jesus was in disguise as a gardener and did not really rise from the dead to deal with sin. Pro proves the bible does not invalidate the resurrection when you consider additional verses. Pro explained that Jesus did not dress as a gardener, but was confused for being a gardener. Pro also claims the bible is more accurate than the Quran based on dates. Con does not refute any of Pro's arguments, so Pro wins arguments, and pro wins conduct as well for Con's multiple forfeits.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 8 months ago
dsjpk5
easternhitman-90Jerry947Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Con ff many times, so conduct to Pro.
Vote Placed by David_Debates 8 months ago
David_Debates
easternhitman-90Jerry947Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit in more rounds than not means loss in both convincing arguments and conduct.
Vote Placed by AribtraryMoniker 8 months ago
AribtraryMoniker
easternhitman-90Jerry947Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit