The Instigator
Unstobbaple
Pro (for)
The Contender
Emilrose
Con (against)

Ayn Rand was correct that self sacrifice (and even it's idea) destroys societies.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/25/2017 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 603 times Debate No: 103678
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (16)
Votes (0)

 

Unstobbaple

Pro

No new arguments or soucing in the last round.
Emilrose

Con

Accepted. Thanks to Pro for choosing me for this debate and good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
Unstobbaple

Pro


Ayn Rand was an complete b/c.




I’m just saying this as a concession to point out that it doesn’t support my case or the Con case. Cult like, spiteful and a poor communicator in my view. That doesn’t detract from her ideas.




I don’t think I’ll really site her books (I don’t think you need to read past The Virtue of selfishness which is one of the worst titles ever and unfortunately she basically did that on purpose) since I think the ideas carry outside supportive evidence when you may not like her fiction but I’d be curious to hear if others think that I’m accurately representing her ideas.





From Webster: self–sacrifice




    1. : sacrifice of oneself or one's interest for others or for a cause or ideal




Self-sacrifice is inherently unnatural and contradictory and therefore inevitably creates hypocrisy.




Like any other being on earth we care naturally about our survival we can’t help it and we shouldn’t. Without a strong desire to live everyone like us would be dead. It’s basic evolutionary biology.




Morality is intrinsic to social animals. We naturally develop rules to follow so we can cooperate and there is a strong pressure to follow those rules. Creating a rule that is contrary to a fundamental truth and natural strong desire inevitably cause people to fail. Those who pretend to follow the rule get rewarded for it. Those who aren’t are punished so social economics pushes people to lie and become hypocrites. Hypocrisy creates a whole host of problems and only emboldens the violation of more rules.




When you know one rule is bullshti you’re naturally inclined to believe that more are. It actually encourages selfishness which I’d define as an extreme version of ‘rational self interest’. Since there is not a safe space to discuss self interest in a rational context ideas about this become morphed and deluded in isolation. Ideas like ‘I am already immoral for not being self sacrificial and lying about it so I mine as well use abuse others and violate all the other rules,’ become the natural conclusion.




The problem is that many of the rules make sense. The self sacrifice rule does not. Moral atrocities become possible because the basic moral rule is a lie.




The idea of self sacrifice is a rejection of what it is to be human.




We are what we are. We can’t actively work to corrupt our own interests. It’s just not possible or effective. We need to accept who we are in reality and work within these terms to achieve anything.




Actively rejecting our natures can only be destructive.




What’s bad for the individual naturally compounds to damage societies.




I would not tell my nephews to reject their own interests because I get that it’s actively harmful to them and I care about them and I care about their well being. That is a meme that can build and grow. Actively resisting what’s in your own interest, for any reason, is self-destructive. If I spread this meme multiple people are now trying to destroy themselves.




When you encourage others to neglect themselves the net result is collective neglect. No one is going to care more about your own desires as much as you do. If we are taught to neglect these desires we are all completely doomed to become dissatisfied.




Acts presented as altruistic are generally self-gratifying.




If I love you and take a large risk to my life to save your life it’s because you’re valuable to me. My life would be virtually null without you. You can easily establish this by tracking how long spouses survive each other (it’s not very long). It’s also why the death of a child often ends a marriage.




If you’re weak and small dying in a burning building how could I live with myself if I wouldn’t at least take a slight risk of my life to try and save you? Empathy is a natural emotion that unites all social animals. It’s not part of a self sacrifice but an understanding that together we are strong and alone we are weak.




Helping each other makes us strong so this is completely self serving for social animals. This is a major theme of the ‘War for the Planet of the Apes’: together the are strong. I’m saying this because it’s one hell of a great movie and makes it clear that in helping each other we help ourselves and that’s even clear to newly conscious Apes. It is in no way self sacrificial to work together in a group.





Altruism as manipulation




If I constantly told you that you’re being selfish it means that you’re not doing enough to help me out in the relationship. If I start telling you you need to be be self sacrificial that’s code for ‘you should be serving me.’ It’s not the start of a voluntary relationship where we could trade and cooperate with each other.




Self-sacrifice and selfishness vs cooperation




This is really the major crux of the issue for me. If I say that morality should be about self sacrifice I will get taken advantage of and if I accept internally that it’s only about me and my well being I will take advantage of others and so contribute to the destruction of society in which I am a part of.




Morality has to be about cooperation and not altruism or selfishness to be successful in building and improving societies.




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Telling someone to neglect their own interests is immoral as it’s destructive to them, is a step toward getting them to only serve your interests and ultimately leads to collective harm. We just have to be honest that a good balance has to be struck between extreme self interest and an extreme interest in others. Cooperation is the basis of morality.

Emilrose

Con

I've been wondering as to how I can approach this debate; and have just decided to write this:

I believe that self-sacfrice is a significant benefit society, and I hold it true that there's a scientific basis for this argument. As humans (and this may be controversial), we are not naturalistically inclined to be thoroughly selfish or to place our feelings and desires before others; especially those whom we form close attachments to, and feel love towards. When we do commit selfish acts, it generally hurts other people, and it distorts our sense of self--selfishness has the power to destroy not only those around us, but actually, ourselves as well.

To achieve real progression and enlightenment, self-sacrifice has to be involved. And it's usually when you think of other people (like those you are close to) that this becomes easier. They serve as inspiration; you think of them being proud and happy, and experiencing joy instead of sadness--and that guides you through. When you're struggling to study to get a good result for an exam, you have to think of your family, in addition to the place that getting a good result will eventually get you to; in studying, you are sacrificing other forms of so-called 'enjoyment'; like going out, getting intoxicated, taking drugs, and just generally doing things that other people your age might be doing.

And when your family require assistance with something (like elderly relatives), you help them--because that's the right and selfless thing to do. The truth is that every deed we do in life, usually has some kind of cyclical effect; if we do something negative, it likely will result in more negativity, but if we do something good/positive, another good thing will, in all probability, usually come out of it. Self-sacrifice is really about doing things that help others and thus (as a by-product effect) yourself in the long-term; in life, you will find that putting other people's feelings before your own (within reason, naturally) will create happiness. Where selfishness breeds disappointment, selflessness breeds contentment.

As with all the best things, it requires discipline, but when a person exercises that discipline--it becomes easier. To understand my argument in the broader context; think of people who initiate or participate in voluntary work and activities for either for their community or abroad, such people clearly aren't doing so for financial gain, as many get lose out financially themselves, rather--they are doing it because they wish to make things easier for people; they are giving their precious time and resources to aid other people, for no apparent reason, but to help them. This is a form of self-sacrifice, and is something that helps general society and the world overall a great deal.
Debate Round No. 2
Unstobbaple

Pro

I’ll agree that it’s often difficult or not natural to place our desires above others. The problem is the few that do. They can take advantage of the rest of us in an extreme way cou*Trump/Putin*gh. A strong self-focus is also natural so the goal has to be a balance between the two. We can emphasize one over the other but self sacrifice itself is not at all helpful since the goal would be some negotiation between our own interests and those of others.


Thinking about and being around other people can be a real challenge for me but it’s rewarding. That’s the real point here. When you’re drawing strength from your experiences with other people it’s just proof that together we are strong. Working together helps all of us but this is not a form of self sacrifice. It’s a form of cooperation.


I think helping the elderly creates a system where you could get some help when you’ll need it toward the end. There’s a lot of wisdom and help there for the young talking with the elderly so it’s really just cyclical as you agreed. The problem is the suggestion that you should put someone else's needs above your own. The elderly, for instance, have invested a lot in culture and environment and we’re going to be like them some day so it just makes sense to help them creating a system where we receive the same help.


The gain people can receive now is not about money. It’s about appreciating the people and the world around us. There’s not a sacrifice there it’s just an investment. People put a lot of time and energy to build something that ultimately helps them. The main problem is about putting yourself first over others which makes cooperation virtually impossible.



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Cooperation just makes sense. Self-sacrifice and selfishness do not. We just have to accept our nature and deal with it as opposed to lying to ourselves or others about it.


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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Emilrose 4 months ago
Emilrose
Yeah, well it is. You too.
Posted by Unstobbaple 4 months ago
Unstobbaple
No problem but I am counting that as a win! Nice talking to you today.
Posted by Emilrose 4 months ago
Emilrose
Sorry about the forfeit...
Posted by Unstobbaple 4 months ago
Unstobbaple
2 hours 42 mins
Posted by Unstobbaple 4 months ago
Unstobbaple
great thoughts, getting together a response.
Posted by Unstobbaple 4 months ago
Unstobbaple
All those things sound great to me. Why would it be a sacrifice to get them? All of them help me.
Posted by canis 4 months ago
canis
Without self sacrifice we would have no relations.. No children..No work..No money..Nothing..
Posted by Unstobbaple 4 months ago
Unstobbaple
Are you from Eastern Europe? I had to ask because if you made Ayn that's adding something else to the conversation.
Posted by Unstobbaple 4 months ago
Unstobbaple
got it ty.
Posted by Emilrose 4 months ago
Emilrose
1 hour and 28 mins...
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