<BI> - One can only truly grow, when Ego has been acknowledged.
Debate Rounds (5)
I would like a good old fashioned, Logical debate with someone, It does not require BoP, and Sources/Citations are not required - It just has to follow logical sense, and if requested - one must be able to extrapolate to explain further.
I am interested in Sources to show where information is learnt, however one cannot base their debate upon citations or sources.
Effectively I have read a lot of really good and long debates, where about 5000 words are used, and the rest are simply Sources, quotes or citations. My intention is for one to learn from the internet (or other sources), and debate with me using logic to put what you have learnt into a compelling argument. Sort of like Old Greek Days before the World Wide Web.
My intention with this is to show the perspectives between the two parties while they debate, rather than the web surfing and sourcing abilities of a specific individual.
TOPIC DEFINITION :
The topic I would like to debate can be boiled down to this - I believe that Ego is one of the most disruptive traits in a Human that effectively blocks growth. I would like an opponent who either disagrees with me, or has found another 'blocker' that hinders growth, to which we can debate further. (If you believe there is another 'blocker' - please provide clarifications like below, to ensure I - your other party - am on the same page as you).
Growth : The improvement of self from one point, to a future point (e.g. Future self is an improvement than the person you are right this second) - i.e. Better than Before, or Personal Growth.
This includes, but is not limited too - Emotional growth, Physical growth, Mental ability, Deductive reasoning, 'Clear' Thinking.
Clarifications (If required) :
Ego : "a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
synonyms:self-esteem, self-importance, self-worth, self-respect, self-conceit, self-image, self-confidence; amour propre
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject. Your ego is your conscious mind, the part of your identity that you consider your "self." "
This debate is open to all - And if another wishes to have a similar debate, I can very easily (And happily) open a direct debate with you.
I believe there are actually 7 other human traits that are deadly than ego when you have too much of them. In fact they are so famous they are considered the 7 deadly sins. I will the with the obvious
PRIDE - it's different from ego. It's taking the extreme satisfaction or pleasure in ones own achievements to better than everyone.
WRAITH - extreme anger
Gluttony - excess eating
Lust - very strong sexual desires
Sloth -extreme laziness
Greed - intense selfish desires
Envy - a feeling of discontent of desire to have something someone else has.
I also believe having a good ego helps people grow, but again this is in moderation, everything in moderation is good. Except for the 7 deadly din
I will start with what I have read from your response, and will then move to my side of the argument.
I would like to begin with saying that all of the traits you have listed here, are all beneficial to a humans' growth - Unless in extremes - as you say.
Pride : It is good be proud of what one achieves, for you have done it. To focus on the achievement to oblivion is no longer one being prideful, but egotistic - as in they base themselves in tasks completed, with no intention of growing - i.e. "Living in the moment".
Wrath : It is good to feel anger, It means you care. Like all negative emotions, it has its time and place, again - an overtly angry person is not a person at all, but a beast who can sometimes talk well.
Gluttony - Food is the source of life - Take too much of the source, and one will Die. Gluttony is not a trait in the fact that one does not have this 'vice' before an abundance of food is available - it is a decision someone must make to keep on eating, past respite.
Sloth - We have been drilled about not wasting a single second of life - and that any form of 'sloth' is a waste of a human, therefore this is a 'sin' - I do not hold credence to this as a vice - as it is simply someone who has chosen their activities to leisure - Any choice to do literally nothing and be a "sloth" - is that persons choice.
Greed : Greed can be boiled to both good and bad :
Good : Make one wish for more than they have, Entice for one to move forward to satisfy their greed
Bad: To hoard what has been gathered, and will not release for any reason at all (Why it is a Sin)
It has good in it, along with the bad - It is only considered a Sin, because holding onto your possessions is logical to a human society, but taking and hoarding these things so you have it, and no one else does is the gateway to negative repercussions (Someone stealing the item), or negative steps taken to stop those repercussions (Paranoia to ensure safety of ownership).
Envy - Envy is a great motivator in the fact that one may wish to have the fortunes of others - This is a great drive to improve your job, to work out, to make active contributions to gain the reward that caught your eye in the first place - it is a great initiator for motivation. If someone chooses to steal to get their rewards - that again is their choice, and is the only reason Envy is considered a Cardinal Sin.
As you can see with the above, each of them have a good point to them; However I would class these as more of a 'blocker' for society, than personal growth - A gluttonous man would certainly be growing in one aspect, for example!
I still maintain that Ego is the greatest blocker each individual must face this day - I will give you as many angles as I can fit to show you, that good, negative, and all the gray areas - Ego is the "boss-fight" one must face to complete their tasks.
The Good :
Some people use their Ego, they use it to drive themselves to a perceived greatness - Just watch any superhero movie, Action thriller, Adventure - Basically anything with a 'Bad Guy' in it.
The 'Bad Guy' usually has some great plan that they have striven to achieve - They usually must undergo intense training, figure out some equations to make their evil device, or just to defeat their 'Nemesis'. All of these things have happened due to Ego being used - Which is a good thing, they have grown personally; Either intellectually, physically - or in some shows, genetically!
However, their Ego has also blinded them, they probably know they are a bit of an egocentric, and that they have resolved this by 'using' ego to make them better, however they don't stop to look around and actually think the whole plan out. In this scenario, the 'Bad guy' usually has some outrageous plan, like to blow up the moon, or take over the world.
Each of these things are fundamentally flawed - Once this impossible task is achieved, then what?
If he takes over the world, do you honestly think Dr. Mad Scientist is the best world ruler? Will he be unopposed once he ascends to the throne? Will the earth still be inhabitable after he has destroyed the moon, because he didn't receive his "1 hundred, Million, Billion Dollars!"
Their ego to the task, has blinded them to the consequence - Inevitable they will lose one way or another - Either by the hero of the show, or by a little re-enactment of Caesar and Brutus ("Ouch, my Back!"). Ego has blinded one to obvious truth.
The Bad :
Some people have shied away from Ego, believing it to be a deplorable trait. These people are usually quiet, considerate, and will never rock the boat.
By them denying Ego, they deny their life the potential to improve, they would much rather keep things as they are, and just stay 'safe'.
This is the true travesty of the world, in my opinion. Each human should strive to be the best they can potentially be, how else as a species can we continue to improve in the leaps and bounds already apparent to us at this moment - For example, I am able to express my opinion too you from my country (Aus) - to wherever you are in this glorious world of ours. That is our potential when we aren't even trying!
Some people are driven by their perception of their ego, they walk around in a constant state of defensiveness - They never say a word on what they are thinking, act as if they are not driven by Ego - however each assertion that goes against their wish, or their own belief, are viciously and aggressively shot down (I put my hand up for this category, though I was not aggressive) - These people are usually pretty smart, and use their knowledge and experience to ensure that they are always covered, and try and spin their arguments into some logical fallacy that diverts the point of the original argument. This is another Travesty, in my opinion.
When one does not actively acknowledge their Ego, and acknowledge how beneficial it is; When one is aware of it at all times, will one be able to grow unhindered.
I have seen people grow regardless of their acknowledgement to their Ego - however this growth is always perverted, and at the slightest breath of resistance, usually falls back down to their base reaction (Good, Bad or Gray) - And I have seen this cycle countless times.
Each person must learn to accept that they are not always right - and be prepared for when that comes, so they can use the opportunity to learn - the only logical response to being wrong; cut your losses and build from what is left over - i.e. knowledge. If people stopped becoming aggressive when wrong, they could utilize the knowledge that is readily, (The person who has let them know that they were wrong), available to correct themselves and better their own understanding.
The above is why I believe Ego is the biggest 'blocker', and my position remains unchanged. I urge to you prove me wrong, not so that you are right, but so I can learn.
Wrath - as I stated is already extreme anger, as you said before a little anger is good but extreme is bad and that is what wrath is, already at the point where one cannot control their anger.
Gluttony - gluttony is in fact a human trait, the key word is EXCESS eating. Humans are one of the few species in fact possess this trait as some humans over eat they become overweight causing their health to drop, so instead of growing they are actually doing the opposite by hurting themselves.
Sloth - again extreme laziness, the extreme laziness prevents us from completing task because we just don't feel like putting in any effort. Have you ever found yourself staying home binge watching a tv show and being a glutton instead of doing something important? Maybe had that job interview but didn't want to put in the effort? Or had the study session or maybe the gym can wait? That is sloth. Also the best sloth of all, everyone understands that feeling when you first wake up in the morning but want to stay within the warm embraces of your bed.
Greed - being greedy can cause you make rash decisions, ever been gambling been up a couple hundreds and then bet everything on the next hand and loose everything? Or it can make you want to commit crimes cause you just have to have those diamonds.
Envy - it's not just jealousy but you feel ill-will towards a person as well
I admit that pride has its usefulness in small doses however it cause downfalls with too much pride. These definitely are not blockers for society however as they pertain to individuals, just because my neighbor may be a glutton or sloth will not stop me from improving and growing myself however it will stop him.
Now we get to ego.
First I want to say just like how pride is good with the right amount so too is ego, in fact everyone needs a little bit of ego to grow a little bit.
With little to no ego, someone may not she confident enough to speak up at their meeting, or step infront of a crowd to perform. some would also be a shy, and it would be difficult if you had such a little ego that you think poorly of yourself enough to keep yourself couped up at home and not improving yourself with school/gym/hobbies
With the right amount, you may have to confident to get on stage and sing the song that you've been wanting to everyone to hear. Or maybe ask that girl out who caught your attention as soon as she walked into the room.
Too much ego and you'll just look like a jack a**
Therefore just like pride, having a big ego can be disruptive however with the right amount one can grow as well as having too little can prevent growth as well. So while it might be disruptive it is not the most disruptive.
The villains in your movie is just that a villain in a fictitious film written so that they loose, and it is not their ego that are driving them to be bad, actually with your example I'm not quite sure you are understanding the concept of ego. You have great definitions but your examples could use some work
Zarium forfeited this round.
Okay, I will back-track to where we left off, as that is a good place to start off again as any.
I absolutely agree that each of those vices would hamper a person's personal growth - however you appear to be missing the point - This is not blocking people from developing.
Someone may be gluttonous, however if you discuss this with them correctly, they can be made to see a better way, and change their life habits to improve.
Wrath - Teach the person to calm themselves, and apart from the worst of cases, that will be the end of that wrathful person.
Greed, Envy, Pride, lust, Sloth - Each of these problems can be discussed openly and can be resolved with words and little else, barring difficult subjects (Which to be honest, is most of them) - however once the issue is discussed and confronted by the offending party - the issue is usually resolved.
Ego on the other hand, is much harder to keep 'under-wraps' - Tell a man he is simply being egotistic, and his predictable response is negative (either he will defend himself, or will start getting agitated).
Tell a man he is being egotistic, he MAY accede that he is guilty of this, however this will never guarantee that each time it happens, he will notice this.
Teach a man to Acknowledge his ego with his decisions and responses, and that will build them towards improving every aspect of that person's life - each facet.
*Note : For the sake of simplicity, I have referred to each example as 'He' or 'Man' - however please include 'She' and 'Woman' as well*
I can provide a personal example, I noticed that you seemed to be missing the point I am putting through to you - Which is regarding Ego itself (So I am actively thinking about it) - Still I felt irrational anger, nothing severe, over the fact that my side is not being acknowledged.
My initial response to you would have been dripped in sarcasm, and I may have made a personal 'dig' at you to try and goad you to my line of thinking (I do not do this, however when I was younger, this was my way of manipulating others to my opinion, an act that I now look back on as deplorable, but hey - I was the youngest of 3 boisterous boys , I had to take whatever I could get!). This is the poison that Ego can push one too.
Obviously I have been practicing changing this behaviour, by analyzing each of my actions before I do it (It is really now a .5 second thing now, "Will this be perceived as me being as a**?" - however it took me a long time to figure out how to think about it correctly). But the reason I used this as an example, is to show you that I - who is actively attempting to acknowledge my Ego - still encounters issues with egotism as much as the next guy; I just don't let it block me anymore.
And that is my point exactly - EGO is the biggest blocker we have for progressing forward - and not just in a single line of problems (Egotism) - but for pretty much each any decision that is made by anyone is tainted by Ego, even those that appear most pure and unaffected by such petty things as Man's Ego.
Become a world leader? That seems pretty pure, people made this to represent freedom, and to ensure future generations are better than the previous.
How many candidate vie for this position, simply to get the position now - with little regard to what it entails, what their responsibilities are, and the sacrifice required to give oneself to their people?
Churches, Institutions and Religious organisations? God seems pretty pure, and the concept is nothing short of Miraculous.
How many people have taken positions in these institutes, to abuse their power, and get whatever they can for it - Ignoring the fact that the majority of them are there for the people, to help them through traumatic times (Such as loosing loved ones). I saw a Priest marry a friend of mine, and needed the book the whole time to pronounce them married!
His entire purpose is to know the book, and to use it in practice (One of the people responsible to actually use the book and its scriptures to encapsulate what they are there for) - It felt more like he was just reading what he knows he had to read, and was waiting for the next pay-check to come through!
The above examples show not what happens when one person is full of Ego, but what happens when the poison that ego causes, seeps into previously honest and private institutions.
You talk about your own ego but that's just sounds like a personal problem to me. People don't go through fighting their own ego everyday, however people fight their anger, their gluttony, swallow their pride, etc etc. that point being is that people don't make every decision worrying about their ego
About churches, and what not, those people that have taken those position only to abuse their power? That is a result of greed, a greed for power. The priest that was reading from the book? Sloth! He was too lazy to remember the book, and was too lazy to care.
World leaders? Again power corrupts, through greed, or maybe lust? A lust for power as well. Or maybe wrath, they get angry that they were disrespected as a child so they mark a whole group of people and burn them alive. A world leader with a big ego is actually more ideal, they'll do things so that their people like them, meaning they will treat their people better. Sure everyone won't be happy but it's hard to make everyone happy.
You seem to have gotten stuck on the titles however - "GREED" - "PRIDE"-"ENVY"- etc.
What would stop a gluttonous man from realizing how deplorable his situation, and the future repercussions of their life habits?
What would stop a Wrathful man from realizing they are negative influences on their surroundings?
What stops a Prideful man from understanding there is more to life than that single accomplishment they have done?
What stops a man from realizing his Lust is destroying relationships, affecting their families and potentially ruining their life?
What would stop a greedy man from realizing that they don't need to hold onto each of their possessions?
What stops an Envious man from realizing that the 'grass is not always greener on the other side'?
The answer to all of the above questions is Hubris - Their Ego.
All of the people who refuse to listen to reason or fact, do so because they somehow believe that they are better, or somehow 'know better' than others, which is why they are "the exception to the rule."
You say it is difficult to discuss these issues with those who are currently experiencing them - You stated that I am undervaluing these problems as opposed to my definitions. I counter by saying you don't seem to grasp that I do completely understand where you are coming from - each of those vices you have listed are a serious problem - All of them affect humanity, and individuals on a daily basis. My counter-argument in Round two stated as such. I also followed to say that I do not class these as personal problems - the person who is wrathful is still physically and mentally sound - they just have a predilection that is not appreciated by society, which have in turned classed each action as a "sin" to discourage the populous from mimicking the behavior. Whilst I agree that if everyone in the world developed at least one of these traits, it would destroy us - However it isn't, it doesn't, and it will not.
However, take a look around the world (Hence the Religion and President examples) - Can you not correlate the issues that are currently happening, and find the common derivative?
I have, and my conclusion is Ego - People refuse to acknowledge what they are doing, they either believe themselves to be 'good' people - or people 'caught in the moment'. Both are flat-out lies.
When people are wrong, in the wrong - or even remotely wrong - They can either learn from what they did, or make excuses to protect themselves (Ego).
How many people accept and learn from their losses? (I don't think we have enough characters to have all the '0's' in 0.00000* to show the percentage of people that actually do this.)
Alternatively, how many people would much rather find a perfect excuse to divert all attention away from what they did, so they can learn how to do it sneakier next time? ( I don't think we have enough characters to have all the '9's' in 99.9999* to show you the percentage of people doing this.)
You say each of the Sins are horrible, because they are Sins - or they are negative to people.
I say it is not the Sins themselves that are horrible (True, they are deplorable), it is the fact that people refuse to look into their behavior to change it - Their EGO stops this!
I in no way advocate that the sins themselves are safe - they are a problem and are being dealt with over time - But the fact that each of the sins you raised to me as a problem, I can correlate to actually staying problems due to Ego - that is why Ego is much more of a threat to oneself than any of the sins combined.
If you still don't understand me, answer me this :
If a Person were to have ALL of the cardinal sins (As you have described) and had no Ego, they were completely open to their faults and were happy to change - How long do you think this person would retain the vices of each of these Sins?
(I.e. how long would he resort to Wrath to gain what he wants, would he stay Slothful, Gluttonous, Prideful, etc.?)
As it was my fault I forfeited a round, I apologise we were unable to have another Round to discuss this topic - I would like to use this time to let my opponent know of a well played Debate - I (Selfishly) thought this debate would go on another tangent, and perhaps we could clear up our difference in perspective, however I have learnt greatly on how to express what I mean regarding Ego from this debate.
For that, I thank you.
Greed - gambling addiction
Gluttony - required dietician and trainer, sometimes a therapist(some people eat to cope with loses)
Lust - sex addicts
Wrath - anger management
So you see if it was as easy as addressing people's ego, and them refusing to change, these people literally cannot change if they themselves truly want to. Addiction caused by these traits is a serious brain disorder that should not be down played by saying "it's easy to change if they wanted to" it's actually a slap in the face to people who have lost lives caused by these traits.
Also everyone in the world has a tiny bit of these traits in them, we battle that least one of them each day rather than our ego. However we do not let it consume it, our ego helps restrain us.
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