The Instigator
shootmisslayup
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
m93samman
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

BIRT The Student Body & Faculty Members Be Able To Appoint Their Principal and Vice Principal

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/17/2010 Category: Education
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 717 times Debate No: 13696
Debate Rounds (5)
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Votes (4)

 

shootmisslayup

Pro

My class will be doing this debate in the future and considering I was the one that thought of the resolution I was curious as to how many directions this debate could go. Therefore I will try the resolution out here. So good luck to my opponent and I hope I can be some sort of challenge.
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How many times have you been unhappy (as a student/faculty member) with a decision the current principal has made? Well by having the faculty & student vote I think that the school would benefit because the students would know what the principal's plans are and how they want to run the school and they would get to decide if that's what they want as a school. Also the principal that is voted would be the best person to run the school because he/she would have the same opinions or has a message that the students agree and respect.

Also having students in a democratic setting would have the youth understand democracy fully so that as adults they would become more knowledgeable as voters. Also it may increase the number of people to vote because if they're familiar with the concept of voting it may come easier to them.

That is why I think that this resolution must and will stand.
m93samman

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate, and wish her the best of luck.

=== Content ===
o Introduction
o Con Case
o Refutation of Pro Case
o Summary
o Sources (if necessary)
============
o Introduction

In the day and age of 21st century America, we have progressed to be host to one of the most complicated and intricate school systems in the world. Although we may not be the most intelligent nation statistically speaking, our universities and private schools are of the most sought after on the planet. Whether you agree or not, our education is extremely effective methodologically in terms of providing the nourishment for the young mind that anyone needs for a bright future.

o Con Case

1. Principals and Teachers are trained professionally, and differently

Whereas they both are taught in the "education" field, a teacher cannot be "voted" into principality. Principals have the certification of educational administration [1]. A teacher would need to go the extra mile to become eligible to be a principal.

2. Students do not have the merit or credibility to determine their leaders.

This will be elaborated upon in the refutation of the Pro case.

o Refutation of Pro Case

My opponent makes a few claims; I will do the organizing for her for the sake of the debate.

1. Students and Principals get in tune.

---> First, I would argue that students wouldn't choose the right person to be principal; they would choose whosoever seems to be the most lenient and free-spirited.
---> Second, the principal won't really know what policies will be enacted until he/she gets the position, just like what happened with our president. Thus, they won't really be as in sync as my opponent claims they will be.

2. Students will be educated about democracy.

---> Consider this. Democracy is a lot more complicated than voting. If all democracy consisted of was voting, there really is no reason to be teaching our kids about government.
---> The students, as mentioned before, don't have the qualifications to vote, especially not in high-school or lower. Hence the voting age being 18.

o Summary

This debate poses the question of whether or not students should be allowed to democratically elect their principal. I contend that it doesn't make sense to do so for two reasons; the first of which being that, through my opponent's proposed system of electing teachers, we will have unqualified individuals running a school. Second, student based elections in an educational system as convoluted as ours would dumb it down and essentially ruin a generally effective educational sector.

I urge a Con vote, and thank the readers for their time. I look forward to my opponent's response.

o Sources

[1] http://education-portal.com...
Debate Round No. 1
shootmisslayup

Pro

o Introduction

I agree with my honorable opponent that our current school system is effective. Although the purpose of the resolution was to change the relationship between the principal and the student. Students are often hesitant to approach a principal regardless of how many years they have been attending the same school and student voice is lost in the voices of only the faculty. With this resolution the principal voted into the position would have thought to get to know some of the students before hand and get to know their opinions so that even before they get the position they already know what the students are like and what their opinions are.

o Pro Case

Sorry I wasn't clear and that i didn't explain the way I thought about my resolution. I was thinking of it as a the student and faculty vote on a person who has gotten the right training and education to become a principal.

1. Confidence in their principal.

Having the student and faculty choose who they feel the most comfortable leading their school would give them some sort of confidence on the principal. Although that doesn't promise that the principal wouldn't do anything that they would react negatively to but since the principal would be the one whose ideas are the same as the majority of the school the chances of negative opinions could be decreased.

o Refutation of Con Case

1. What makes a person credible?

What makes a person credible to determine their leaders or in this case principals? Since the "we" as a school are affected the most by this decision why wouldn't we be credible enough?

2. So what if they may pick the most free-spirited and lenient?

If the students pick the most lenient and free spirited how can you say it may not be the right one? Can a principal be lenient yet a good one?

3. Democracy is not just voting.

I am fully aware that democracy isn't just voting. Democracy also involves being able to identify your opinions and ethics, listen to many voices and messages and being able to make the appropriate choice by voting on the person that shares your views and values. When the time comes for students to vote for their principals they would learn all these characteristics of being an informed voter and will carry out these characteristics as they progress into adulthood.

o Summary

So the purpose of this debate is to justify that students and faculty are capable of choosing the person who is in charge of them. I agree with this resolution because I believe that to increase the number of students that vote in their adulthood by educating them starting at a young age. Also because I don't believe that this system of democratically choosing our principal would "dumb down" our educational system.

o Sources (if necessary)
http://en.wikipedia.org...
m93samman

Con

Thanks, shootmisslayup, for providing such an interesting topic. And thanks, also for your civil and high-esteem debate style; you've earned my respect.

I apologize for the brevity of my last round, I was preparing for a midterm that I completed an hour ago. I'll try and make this round more coherent.

=== Content ===
o Observations
o Rebuttal of Pro Case
o Defense of Con Case
o Summary
o Sources (if necessary)
============

o Observations

My opponent has clarified the system to be a democratic election among multiple eligible principles, voted on by faculty and students. So, we must realize that:

1. Several "candidates" will be necessary for schools; not all will win.

2. An "election" requires campaigning.

With that, I'll move on to Pro's case.

o Rebuttal of Pro Case

1. Confidence

My opponent's advocacy is that, if students got to know the principals better, they would be more comfortable with who is running the school. I disagree; most students are apathetic anyways. For those students who do care, they would go and get to know their principal, i.e. it's not that students aren't CONFIDENT, it's that they don't really have anything engaging between them and faculty. A study by the NSSE says that 62% and 47% of freshman and seniors, respectively, have never worked on anything with faculty except on coursework [1] . In other words, they don't care about faculty for anything but work.

Not only that, (looking back to my observations) the ability to actually know one's principal with transparency and total lucidity would require campaigning. As a distraction that would take away school time, I argue that this is not only counter-intuitive given our system, it is counter-productive and a squandering of time.

Furthermore, I disagree that it would be a good thing to have a principal who agrees with the students. Explained in Defense of Con Case, point 2.

The final issue, looking back at Observation 1, is that we would need to have an output of significantly more principals in order to fulfill election criteria of having a sufficient number of principals running. This would also mean that we would have a significantly higher number of principals unemployed. This is indirectly harmful to our economy; drop this point for all the above reasons.

o Defense of Con Case

1. Credibility

My opponent asks what constitutes credibility. In a more relevant context, what constitutes credibility in civic participation in politics? Adulthood, which is not available in a high school; knowledge of candidates, which is problematic for several reasons- see Refutation of Pro Case; honesty, which is hard to find in high-school voting- see Defense of Con Case, point 2.

2. High-School Voting

The students' interest in high-school are generally contrary to what is in their best interest. A survey found that the majority of students want to digitize their schools; to allow the use of cell-phones, smart phones, laptops etc. in class [2]. If students found a principal with the same advocacy, here is the pitfall that would result [3].

A) We would have the incessant distraction of ringing phones not on silent, or texting students who quit paying attention.

B) Cheating would be facilitated.

C) Students may use phones for bomb threats to the school, to get out of class or miss a test. These are becoming more and more popular, and they are extremely disruptive as one can infer. [4]

Clearly, we see that, if students were to know a principal's policy outlined the above, he would get voted in, ultimately causing the schools downfall.

3. Democratic Education

If the idea was just that students should vote, my opponent agrees that this point is moot and should be dropped. My opponent advocates a full, democratic-esque election. This would be burdensome and time-consuming, not to mention difficult to run, the way I envision it. But, so that I don't skew what my opponent was saying, I'll leave this off until my opponent provides the actual system to be set in place. A few questions I have, just for clarity.

Will there be campaigning? If so, who will fund it? If not, how will all students know the principle?
How many candidates will run for principality?
Will there be elections every year?
Do faculty votes count for more than student votes?
Does any part of this take place during the summer? How long will it take?
Are there parties, and party primaries?

o Summary

We are left to question the vague system my opponent hasn't provided. How will it work? Will it be effective, and will it be compatible with our school system? I contend that it will be problematic and won't work, for all the reasons mentioned. To recap,

1. Students wouldn't really care enough to partake in such elections.
2. Elections would take too much time, and would be a distraction from the purpose of an educational institution.
3. Students will not vote with their education in mind; just their comfort and happiness.
4. Too many principals will be demanded to partake in what is essentially a lottery; unemployment will result.
5a. Students don't have the credibility to vote on something that will determine their future prior to their adulthood.
5b. Technology (the students' interest) is counter-productive; we don't want students to vote.
6. Voting on a principal ultimately does nothing to benefit the students.

For all these reasons, I urge a con vote. Thanks for your time shootmisslayup, and the readers.

o Sources

[1] http://newsinfo.iu.edu...

[2] http://www.eschoolnews.com...

[3] http://life.familyeducation.com...

[4] http://www.popcenter.org...
Debate Round No. 2
shootmisslayup

Pro

shootmisslayup forfeited this round.
m93samman

Con

I hope my opponent can make it back in time. Meanwhile, please extend my arguments.
Debate Round No. 3
shootmisslayup

Pro

shootmisslayup forfeited this round.
m93samman

Con

I'll pass on this round with the little hope I have remaining for my opponent to return.
Debate Round No. 4
shootmisslayup

Pro

shootmisslayup forfeited this round.
m93samman

Con

It's unfortunate that my opponent left. By default, I urge the voters to vote Con. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 5
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4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by S98-SAMMAN 6 years ago
S98-SAMMAN
shootmisslayupm93sammanTied
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Vote Placed by gavin.ogden 6 years ago
gavin.ogden
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Vote Placed by bluesteel 6 years ago
bluesteel
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Vote Placed by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
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