The Instigator
Swordmaster
Pro (for)
Winning
28 Points
The Contender
ccedericka
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Baptism into Christ is the point of salvation, not any time before.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/13/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,017 times Debate No: 11721
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (4)

 

Swordmaster

Pro

I affirm that a person who believes that Jesus is the Christ, must be baptized into Christ in order to be saved. The baptism I am talking about is (one of water, Total immersion) Thereby no matter how much a person has emotions for God or Jesus, belief alone will not saved a person from their sins. (infant baptism is not in consideration here because a baby is not a believer, and has not sin). This debate is solely focused on adult baptism. That topic can be or another time. Also we are not talking about baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Accepted evidence in this debate, must be the Bible. Your understanding and Three quotes from three different sources per round and one of them must be from the bible.
Also at the end of rounds 2, 3, 4, 2 questions may be asked and must be answered by the opponent in the next round at the beginning.
When asking questions, They must be from the prior argument.
1st Round will be Today, the introduction given must state who you are and what you intend to prove and the beginning of your argument.

2nd round We must answer your given questions, produce any new evidence in this round, plus 3 questions may be asked of your opponent position

3rd round We must answer your given questions, produce any new evidence in this round, plus 3 questions may be asked of your opponent position

4th Round We must answer your given questions, produce any new evidence in this round, plus 3 questions may be asked of your opponent position

5th round We must answer any questions given, and produce the conclusion of our argument. (using only the evidence we produced in rounds 1-4)

My Argument begins
Hi my name is Tim, and my opponent name is Preacher Andy. I just want to thank Preacher Andy for agreeing to this debate. I am known as Sword master here. I live in Michigan, and am a father of 5 great Children. One is with Jesus and 4 are still here. I have the greatest wife in the world. I have went through a 2 years in a school of preaching, and acquired 130 credit hours. But if the foundation of knowledge I received is off, everything that I learned will be rancid to some degree. So if my opponent does not have the same level of training in the word that I have and he is factual in his beliefs, and I am not, My schooling would have done nothing for me, but make my beliefs rotten.
Therefore it is more important to look at what is being said, then to see who said it. In the same way the evidence we use (no matter the honor of the degree, or the popularity of the person we quote, if they are not factual in what they believe, they are as rotten and rancid as any false teacher.
Debates are fun, and can be healthy, if attitudes are right, but if attitudes are wrong, debates can be a weapon for Satan to use to destroy the belief of the weak in Christ. So as I approach this debate it is with an attitude of Honoring Christ, Creating belief in the non believer, and teaching the truth as God commands all Christians to do. I also want to honor my opponent Preacher Andy, for his conviction, and courage to stand up for what he believes, and honor me with this debate.
In this debate I must prove that
1. belief alone does not save.
2. What actions/obedience, saves a person from their sins must involve baptism.
3. I believe I must also prove that anything less than baptism with the correct understanding, does not make one a Christian, but a follower of the blind, who leads ignorant people to hell with himself.
Once I have proved these facts, it will be impossible for anyone who has believed otherwise to continue in that belief, and know they are a Christian. So let's get started.
John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
This is a very important verse, we have seen it at ball games and in tracks from various denominations and it is probably the most famous verse in the bible.. Yet for all its fame, it is the most abused and misunderstood verse in the bible. I want to focus on the Word "believes"
The Greek word for belief is πιστεύω pisteuō and the root word of this Greek word is πίστις.
Now πίστις is a feminine noun, which means 1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it relating to God the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
From that word comes πιστεύω pisteuō This word that is used by Jesus in John 3:16, is a verb. Not a name of a trust or emotion, but Jesus used a word that describes an action.
Vines Greek dictionary.
Moultins lexicon
When pisteuō is parse out this is what we find: Tense: Present, Voice: Active, Mood: Participle.
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.
The Participle Mood represents "-ing and can be used either like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a "verbal noun."
Blue letter bible.

Here is the question, Why did Jesus use this particular Greek word? Jesus said pisteuō, Not the feminine noun πίστις?
If Jesus did not want any wrong understandings why this word? Jesus is saying belief he want all believers to have is one of action. The Holy Spirit through the pen of James said James 1:22, But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Thus James and John are not contradictory but in line and in full agreement with each other. Jesus is saying in John to believe in action. James is talking to Jewish Christians and telling them the same thing,
IN Matthew Henry's commentary on James 1:22 he says, 3. We are taught what is to be done after hearing (v. 22): But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Observe here, (1.) Hearing is in order to doing; the most attentive and the most frequent hearing of the word of God will not avail us, unless we be also doers of it. If we were to hear a sermon every day of the week, and an angel from heaven were the preacher, yet, if we rested in bare hearing, it would never bring us to heaven. Therefore the apostle insists much upon it (and, without doubt, it is indispensably necessary) that we practice what we hear.
Jamison, Fausset, and Brown in their commentary on James 1:22." Qualification of the precept, "Be swift to hear": "Be ye doers . . . not hearers only"; not merely "Do the word," but "Be doers" systematically and continually, as if this was your regular business. James here again refers to the Sermon on the Mount ( Mat 7:21-29 )."
And finally Matt 7:21-23, 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Therefore When Jesus speaks of belief in John 3:16, he is talking about an obedient belief. One that is more the lip service. He never authorizes only lip service, So in matters of salvation, what did he authorize? Well tonight we will look at What actions/obedience, saves a person from their sins and prove it must involve baptism.
Resources used: The New King James bible, Moulton Greek lexicon, the blue letter bible, Vines Greek dictionary, and Mathews Henry's & James, Fausset, Brown commentaries on James.
Thank
ccedericka

Con

thats dont elplain anything no matter what its still lame... lol how lame can that be!!! im toatlly agaisnt that right now
Debate Round No. 1
Swordmaster

Pro

Round 2
I want to being to the attention of those who read this that ccedericka only posted an opinion, and I have serious doubts as to her ability to debate in a formal way.
In this round we have the opportunity to ask 3. questions to our opponent. So ccedericka Please answer:
1.If you were to die right now do you know for sure that you are saved?
2.Please explain your answer.
3.What authority do we follow in Christianity today?
Good evening. Tonight we will look at what saves, how it saves and when it saves a "believing individual"? So let's get started. In 1Co. 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
No matter what we no matter what we believe The Holy Spirit said through the pen of The Apostle Paul that Christ, Death, Burial, and Resurrection, is God Power to Save lost mankind from their sins. Paul would again say, in Ro. 1:16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Did you all realize that God cannot save anyone without the message of the cross, which is the Gospel of Christ?
The blue letter bible says: the glad tidings of salvation through Christ
, But Paul would give a more defined definition of what the Gospel or the message of the cross is in 1 Co. 15:1-5," Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve."
In vs. 1 we see the word Gospel and in verses 3-4 Paul explains that the gospel is Christ; death, burial and resurrection. In vs.2 we see they received and stood on it, by this gospel they were saved. Friends that is why Paul would say in 1 Cor. 1: 17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect."
I would rather myself preach the death, burial. and resurrection any day. Baptism will always come latter, and there are other Christians that can baptize. But not all can preach or teach the word. This is what Paul is saying in 1Co. 1:17 and he is not saying in this verse baptism is not important. For we will look at what he said concerning baptism in other passages,
Now let's look at what he said concerning how many gospels there are. Gal. 1:6-9, "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."
The Judizer's were trying to get these churches in the Galatians area, to be circumcised and were saying that was part of salvation. In their eyes these gentiles Christians could not be saved until that had happened. Paul gives a blanket statement to anyone who changes the gospel of Christ in the least. If an angel from God or any preacher, Priest, Rabbi, or anyone period, Preachers a different gospel then the one God had taught him, He would be accursed. That would Accursed means as a "Non Believer."
Friends in this debate, if I or my opponent preaches a different gospel, God looks at us as a non believer. We both believe with all our heart that Jesus was born of a virgin and lived a sinless life and was nailed to a cross, and died there, that a soldier pierced his side after he was dead, and blood gushed out of his side. We believe he was buried in a tomb and laid there for three days and on the third day arose in the morning from the grave, and somewhere after 40 days arose from the grave. But if we preach another gospel God will look at us as a non believer, and hell will be our fate.
But you may be saying that is the gospel, Christ death, Christ Burial, Christ Resurrection, and his ascension into Heaven. I ask you to consider some other evidence that completes Paul's teaching on the Gospel.
Turn in your bibles to
Rom 10:16, But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
2 Thess. 1:8-9,"in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
1Pet 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Obey according to vines means to harken to a command a) to obey, be obedient to, submit to.
Three verses all teaching that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is something to be obeyed. Now it is a fact that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ happened, and Paul and Peter are saying in these passages, that it is something to be obeyed. So how do we obey it? Not only that but if you do not obey it, Hell fire awaits you!!!!
If God expects you to obey a fact, then he must make a way for you to obey it. You see if we had a red rose and God said obey it, God would have to make a way to do it In the same way, God has to make a way for us to obey the fact of the gospel. Paul teaches us that he did just that.
Rom 6:3-7, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
In verse 3, in Baptism we are baptized into Christ, and we are baptized into Christ death, Right?
In verse 4, In baptism we are buried with Christ into death, and that is our death for we died to self, sin and the world.
In verse 5 In baptism we were Raised with Christ, Therefore we see in these 1st 5 verses we see the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and ours with him. Uniting the baptized believer with Christ, for God showed us how to obey the fact of the Gospel. God's power to save, is the gospel and once we obey it we are saved. Now for verse 7 teaches us that he who died has been freed from sin!!!!!. Thus a believer in Christ is forgiven of their sins, at the point of Baptism. Belief only does not save until one obeys the gospel of Christ which is being buried with Christ into his death burial and resurrection.
Ed Wharton writes in his book The Church of Christ Page 51 the last paragraph "The Mark of the true church's identity is its teachings concerning what a man must obey to be made free from sin."
Thus there is more to the gospel of Christ then mentally believing it. It is something to be obeyed, and the way you obey it is, by being baptized.
ccedericka

Con

it dont matter ok yea its a opion so wat . i want those that read this should be free to belive in anything they wannna be belive iight. ok so there u have it.
Debate Round No. 2
Swordmaster

Pro

It appears to me that you re not even a Christian. Why did you want this debate? It takes time to prepare these teachings. When you can say it does not matter, that is not what God says. in 2thess 1:8-9 teaches not only are unbelievers hell bound, But Those who do not obey the Gospel of Christ. I am sorry that you do not take your eternal destiny so lightly. I know evolution has destroyed the faith of many. The Devil produces a lot of lies. They have been aimed at people just like your self. Please don't think that because you do not understand God or you just don't believe in God that is a good excuse. Please lets talk farther about your soul Jesus Died for you, for you honey and that means you are worth saving. So Please answer me these questions.
1. If you were to die right now, do you know beyond a shadow an doubt that you wold make it to heaven?
2. If so why do you think that?
3. are you interested in farther Study?
ccedericka

Con

ccedericka forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Swordmaster

Pro

I just want you to know that being a Christian is awesome, Read what I have posted for you have a savior that died for you, and Loves you dearly.
ccedericka

Con

wait a i never forthite no damn round but i do belive in jeues christ myself
Debate Round No. 4
Swordmaster

Pro

I just want to thank my opponent for this debate, I have shown over and over again that Baptism into Christ is the Point of Salvation, and that a person is not saved before. Baptism is the point that a sinner gets into contact with the blood of Christ, I showed that we are baptized (according to the Scripture) into Christ Death Burial and Resurrection, and this is obeying the gospel of Christ, God's power to save.
According to the letter sent to the area of Galatia. The Apostle Paul Writes in 3:27, For as many of you as were baptized into Christ, have put on Christ.." We are Baptized into Christ. Notice the Importance of Location, Eph 1:7, In him we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of sins, According to the riches of His Grace." Location, Location, Location. Forgiveness of sins is only found "IN CHRIST"
you can never receive Grace, if you are outside of Christ. The only way inside Christ is found in The above scripture Galatians 3:27. Rom 6:3-4, "Into" a simple word and yet of Most powerful word.
The bible teaches that when a person is baptized into Christ,
1 that they Get into Christ where redemption and grace are.
2 that they Obey the Gospel of Christ, which is God's power to Save
3. that they Get into contact with the blood and are washed by it.
4. that they Received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
5. that they Get forgiveness of their sins
6. that theyGet clothed with Christ,
Anything less then baptism is a work salvation, for you are trying to work your way into heaven, Yes belief alone is working your way into heaven.
For if a person is saved before they are baptized they are saved before they:
1. they are saved before they get washed by the blood of Jesus.
2. they are saved before they Get into Christ.
3. they are saved before they Obey the Gospel of Christ
4. they are saved before they Received the gift of Christ.
5. they are saved before they Get their sins forgiven.
6 they are saved before they Get clothed with Christ.
Belief alone is a work a salvation, in which God Condemns in Eph. 2:8-9.
Thanks for the debate, I challenge you to become a Christian, by believing God enough to repent and Be Baptized into Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. You have cursed on this site and stand for a wrong doctrine. Please become a Christian.
In Christ
Sword master
ccedericka

Con

ccedericka forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Swordmaster 7 years ago
Swordmaster
ccedericka

It is not important who wins this date, as it is that you totally surrender your life to Jesus, by being baptized into Christ as Gal 3:27teaches. Please consider the love of Jesus and his Lordship, I want you to be my sister in Christ.
Posted by brittwaller 7 years ago
brittwaller
Why did sm not just repost a direct challenge to nick? Seems a well-researched theme.
Posted by rhyannemae 7 years ago
rhyannemae
swordmaster is so right! mark 16:16, john 3:5 and so many verses can prove it..
Posted by nickthengineer 7 years ago
nickthengineer
hellooooooo? I already told you to challenge me and i even posted two messages to your profile asking you to challenge me. go ahead and use the same thing you posted in R1 here if you want and just submit the debate challenge directly to me. do you know how to do that? just click on my name to go to my profile, then select "challenge to a debate" and go from there as usual.
Posted by Swordmaster 7 years ago
Swordmaster
Sorry guys that was a greek word that posted as numbers. My contender is a little shy isn't she. I did not think she would answer and I do not believe anyone here could defeat my arguement, and Preacher Andy is not too fast to accept my challenge. Is there anyone here have courage to debate me???????????????????????????????
Posted by Kinesis 7 years ago
Kinesis
Swordmaster: stop posting, challenge nick, get a real debate underway.
Posted by nickthengineer 7 years ago
nickthengineer
hey swordmaster i think you can tell that ccedericka is just a troll who won't offer a real debate anyway. please please please challenge me directly on this. you can use your same first round. i was just about to accept this i almost had my first round post ready!
Posted by Marauder 7 years ago
Marauder
I wonder if one could argue this debate with salvation being some time after salvation, whenever assurance comes. the resolution does reffer to before baptism but even so claiming salvation comes at a point much after baptism would still be in as much conflict the part of the resolution specifeis baptism is the point of salvation.

either way i'll pass.
Posted by Kinesis 7 years ago
Kinesis
Yikes, I wouldn't debate Preacher Andy on this. Based on his previous debates, nothing productive will come from it.
Posted by brittwaller 7 years ago
brittwaller
On a serious note, you should consider editing this and reposting. An obedient belief in "editing" would save you here.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by rd-6715 7 years ago
rd-6715
SwordmasterccederickaTied
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Vote Placed by Servant_of_God 7 years ago
Servant_of_God
SwordmasterccederickaTied
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Vote Placed by Marauder 7 years ago
Marauder
SwordmasterccederickaTied
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Vote Placed by Swordmaster 7 years ago
Swordmaster
SwordmasterccederickaTied
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