The Instigator
Acts2-38
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
the-good-teacher
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

Baptism is a salvation issue.

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
the-good-teacher
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/5/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,146 times Debate No: 12254
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

Acts2-38

Pro

I will argue that baptism is a salvation issue according to the bible.
I will try to use the bible to prove this point.
the-good-teacher

Con

Thank you for posting this Debate, I will also use the bible (KJV 1611) to prove my point, I have no reason to expect and look forward to anything other than a clean and honest debate from my opponent.

For the interest of the reader, Pro is debating that a "physical" baptism is necessary for a persons salvation.

The English word "baptism" is not a "translation" of the Greek word "baptizo", but is a "transliteration", or bringing the "spelling" of the Greek word "baptizo" into the English language with a comparable English spelling. This means that the English word "baptize" has no meaning of its own, but we must look at the uses of the Greek word "baptizo" in the Bible and in Greek literature to find it's true meaning. What we want to know is, what did "baptizo" mean to the New Testament writers who used it in the Greek text.

The "figurative" use, to "identify with", a ceremonial use of "baptizo". In the classical Greek writing "Anabasis" written by Xenophon, Greek soldiers were said to have ceremonially "baptized", or "dipped" spears and arrow tips in blood, to "identity" them as weapons of war.

Salvation has many biblical definitions, for the purpose of this debate I propose salvation is to be defined as "saved" as translated 93 times in the KJV.

A Christian is baptized (spiritual) into identification with Christ, and may then be physically baptized as an outwardly sign to the world what God has done for them inwardly = "baptized in Christs name". - Jesus himself was baptized (physical) into identification with the will of his father which was to "fulfill all righteousness". he was also baptized (spiritual) into identification with our sins, ("he was made sin for us"). 2 Cor 5:21 = "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him". - "in him" = "we are made righteous in his name",, no man has the right to claim the power or right to physically baptize a person into the righteousness of Christ because he himself believes that we have been forgiven of our sins, it doesn't make sense, and it's non biblical. we need trust no man other than Jesus for our salvation.

the next point I would like to address Relates to the context of Acts 2:38 = "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

Peter he is saying to us to "repent" (Repent = change) and as a result of this "change" we will be baptized "FOR" the remission of sins.

"For" = "Eis" (Greek) = "because of",, so we are to repent and as a result we are baptized (spiritually) "because" we have been forgiven of our sins.
Who else knows we have been forgiven and cleansed other than God ?,, (= nobody) so who can baptize us other than God ?,,
Do the scriptures tell us how we are baptized ?, Yes !,, John the baptizer told us Jesus would baptize us by his spirit,

Mark 1:8 = "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost",,let us also look at - 1 Cor 12:13 = "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit". = no third party performing baptism.

Nothing to do with water, or trusting in anyone other than Jesus, here is a perfect biblical example of a person changing and gaining salvation without any physical baptism.

The thief on the cross, who was mocking Jesus then had a change of heart,, Jesus told him Luke, 23:43 = "....Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". where was his baptism ?,,

Jesus baptized millions of people without any of them getting wet, = "no physical baptism"

The children of Israel passing through the Red sea.

I Cor 10:1-4 = "1-Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2-And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (= "baptized into identification with Moses & Jesus")

3-And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4-And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Where was the physical baptism for these people who were at the time fleeing for their lives ? (= "non existent")

To end this round I would like to add one final point, if it is necessary to be physically baptized to go from being born of Adam ( = flesh and sin) to be born of God (= spirit and spotless) why did John tell us otherwise ?,
1 John 5:1 says = " Whosoever (presently) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is (has already been) born of God." ,, = we are born of God based on our belief , Jesus told the Pharisees that their father was the "Devil" and called them "vipers" because of their lack of belief, = they were born of Adam (physical) but not of God (spiritual)
Debate Round No. 1
Acts2-38

Pro

I would also like to thank my opponent the con for taking this challenge. Let me start by introducing myself since I'm new here. Hi everyone, my name is Isaac, but you probably know me better as Acts2-38. I am currently 14 years of age and love a good debate. BTW My denomination is apostolic. Alright lets get into the debate now. :)
I will also use the KJV bible.

You stated this.
"This means that the English word "baptize" has no meaning of its own, but we must look at the uses of the Greek word "baptizo" in the Bible and in Greek literature to find it's true meaning. What we want to know is, what did "baptizo" mean to the New Testament writers who used it in the Greek text."

My reply.
Instead of using philosophy why don't we try to use the bible to interpret what baptism means.
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
***Fact Philip preached Jesus unto the eunuch.***

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
***Fact the eunuch wanted to know why he couldn't get baptized after Phillip preached Jesus to him.***

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
***Fact the eunuch believed that Jesus was the Son of the living God.***

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
***Fact Philip baptized the eunuch by going down into the water.***

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
***Fact they Philip and the eunuch both came up out of the water.***

So here we see what baptism really is. Baptism is going down into the water and coming back up.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
***Fact Peter is talking about physical water like the days of Noah.***

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
***Fact as we see here water baptism saves us.***

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
***Fact if we are buried with Christ in baptism we also should walk in newness of life.***

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
***Fact if were buried with Christ in baptism we rise again in salvation.***

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
***Fact if we are buried with Christ in baptism we will shall live with him in heaven.***

You stated this.
The thief on the cross, who was mocking Jesus then had a change of heart,, Jesus told him Luke, 23:43 = "....Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". where was his baptism ?,,

My reply.
The church was not born yet. The church was born on the day of Pentecost in the book of acts.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
***Fact this was fulfilled in acts chapter 2***

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
***Fact it was the day of Pentecost.***

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
***Fact a mighty sound as a wind filled the house where the 120 were sitting.***

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
***Fact there appeared cloven tongues like fire that sat on the 120 heads.***

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
***Fact the church was now born here when they were filled with the holy Ghost and spoke in tongues.***

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
***Fact it would not make sense to repent if you already had the remissions of sins. That is like repenting because of the remissions of sins. This passage also states baptism is different then receiving the Holy Ghost.***

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
***Fact Ananias was telling Paul what are you waiting for be baptized for the remissions of sins.***

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Fact Jesus said water and spirit. What was the spirit? The Holy Ghost (ghost means spirit).
What was water? Baptism and a water baptism,otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said water.

To start round two I would also like to state that throughout the bible there are many verses after John said that Jesus would baptize us with the Holy Ghost that people were baptized with water and the Holy Ghost.
the-good-teacher

Con

"Instead of using philosophy why don't we try to use the bible to interpret what baptism means".
Reply
written words is a way of communicating, if we form a word from a different language, (= a transliteration) then we really have to look at that language for the meaning of the word .

Reply -
When we study all the passages in the New Testament where we find the word "baptism", we find that there are actually SEVEN "baptisms" in the New Testament; four "waterless" "figurative baptisms", and three "literal" "water baptisms" that have a symbolic meaning.

Who Got wet at the Red sea ? millions of people were baptized, the only people that got wet were "the Egyptians". (1 Cor 10:1-4)

Mat.20:22: "Baptism of the Cross", in which Christ was "identified" with our sins, called here the "Baptism of the Cup". He who knew no sin was made to be a sin offering for us. = no "water"

Matt 20:22 = "But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. = "no water"

Matt. 3:11-12, Luke 3:16: The Baptism of Fire, which will occur at the end of the Seven Year Tribulation, is the removal of all unbelievers from the earth at the end of the Tribulation, to begin the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Christ on earth with believers only. ("Wheat" in this passage refers to the people of God who physically live through the Tribulation, and "chaff", in the Scripture, always refers to unbelievers). In this "baptism", every human being that is left on the earth to live into the Millennium is "identified" with the Millennial reign of Christ, where the world is started over with believers only, just like the Great Flood of Noah's time swept away all the unbelievers..

Does "baptism of fire" = going down into the water and coming back up. ? NO!! , = my opponents definition of Baptism is not accurate.

Acts 3:7 ***Fact the eunuch believed that Jesus was the Son of the living God.***

Reply
= "the eunuch had already been born of God" = spiritually baptized, due to his belief, ..1 John 5:1 says " Whosoever (presently) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is (has already been) born of God.= born again of the spirit., = second birth. - John 3:3 = "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God".= "the eunuch was born of Water"

Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:
NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. "NOT of works" = "getting ourselves physically baptized does not save us" = "Not of yourselves", we can do nothing to save ourselves,

Our faith comes from God, (= not of yourselves) - Rom 12:3 "God has delt to every man a measure of faith"
our repentance is of Godly sorrow ( = Not of yourselves) - 2 Cor 7:10 = "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death"

So if we have faith (believe) and repent. (changed) = we are spiritually baptized, = all an act of God,
What did God tell Moses ?.

Rom 9:14-16:

14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth (wants it), nor of him that runneth (works for it), but of God that showeth mercy. ( = this includes "wants physically baptized and gets physically baptized" = "wants and works")

We are given to the Bridegroom (Jesus) as a gift from the father to his son. = we do not choose our groom, the groom's Father chooses us ! (= he baptizes us into identification with his son) "you have not chosen me, I have chosen you" (John 15:16) Jesus prayed in John 17:9 "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine".

Once we have been cleansed = "spiritually baptized" we are then promised to Jesus, and are dead in the flesh, = Eph 1:4 = "According as he (the father) hath chosen us in him (Jesus) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy ( = with the spirit) and without blame ( = sin free) before him in love":( = keeping the commandments)- "If you love me keep my commandments")

We have no input in our salvation, and nor has anyone else (= no pride, profit, or pleasure)

1 Peter 3:21 ***Fact as we see here water baptism saves us.***

Reply
Yes baptism does save us, but where in this passage or any other passage are we taught that it's a physical water baptism that saves us ? = the teaching doesn't exist, = there is no such passage ! = "Not of works" (Eph 2:9) the passage tells you what the baptism is, = "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" = washing of sin, = water baptism", but the answer of a good conscience toward God" = belief in God,= spiritual baptism, My opponent appears to be tripping over his own passages

Pro argues, - "physical water baptism is necessary for Salvation", Yet when I highlighted that the thief on the cross was indeed saved without this baptism, he wrongly persisted with his argument.

Jesus had already stated unequivocally that a man had to be "born of water and of the spirit" or he cannot "enter into the kingdom of God", Jesus provided no exception or time scale to this rule NONE!,, so this man had clearly fulfilled this requirement for Jesus to have told him that "he would be with him in Paradise" yet he received no "physical water baptism".

My opponent replied to this by stating that "the church was not born", = irrelevant, - this debate is about "physical baptism in relation to salvation" .. ,not when, if, before, or after, a particular event,
I have provided a perfect example of a man receiving salvation without a physical baptism, (Luke 23:43) which alone proves my case, !

Acts 2:38 ***Fact it would not make sense to repent if you already had the remissions of sins. That is like repenting because of the remissions of sins. This passage also states baptism is different then receiving the Holy Ghost.***

Reply
we are baptized For ( = because) the remission of sins, again who can tell if we have been forgiven, who has the right to baptize other than God himself ? = No body, who are we told to trust other than Jesus for our salvation ?,, = "no body", We are not saved by ourselves, or anyone else claiming to be able to save us, other than Jesus,

Allow me to end this post, with explaining a scenario.
according to my opponents beliefs, an Arab living this entire life in the desert alone with no water cannot get into heaven, because he cannot be physically baptized by another person in water, yet we read that this Arab can be given salvation in Rom 1:20 = "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Here Paul is teaching how the Arab can be saved, by simply looking around him and believing in the God that made the things he sees, a physical water baptism doesn't even get a mention ! = belief is the only requirement.

Only religion which is totally dependant on their followers for self survival, preach the necessity of a physical water baptism.

Christians don't need religion,water,or people, only belief in Jehovah Elohim
again I quote how we are baptized = 1 Cor 12:13 = "by one spirit we are all baptized".- "one spirit" or "one person" ?

Jn 8:24, "if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins". If you "believe not" or "if you are physically baptized not" ?
believe = we are born of God.= second birth
1 Cor 15:45 "...first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit" = two births,, physical and spiritual water and spirit.
Debate Round No. 2
Acts2-38

Pro

You stated this.
My opponent replied to this by stating that "the church was not born", = irrelevant, - this debate is about "physical baptism in relation to salvation" .. ,not when, if, before, or after, a particular event,
I have provided a perfect example of a man receiving salvation without a physical baptism, (Luke 23:43) which alone proves my case, !

My reply.
Con had asked me how the thief on the cross was saved. My reply was the church was not born yet. I then went on and gave total proof that the church was born on the day of Pentecost. Con did not like it. So he said it did not have anything to do with the debate.

What I am trying to explain to con was the church was not born until the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts. Meaning all of the baptism verses con is giving, were before the church was born. So his verses mean nothing to me.
Besides the baptism con gave me in revelation. Revelation is a symbolic book. The baptism of fire is symbolic. The writer was trying to get the point across that people going to be engulfed in flames. Just like as a water baptism.

You stated this.
Yes baptism does save us, but where in this passage or any other passage are we taught that it's a physical water baptism that saves us ? = the teaching doesn't exist, = there is no such passage ! = "Not of works" (Eph 2:9) the passage tells you what the baptism is, = "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" = washing of sin, = water baptism", but the answer of a good conscience toward God" = belief in God,= spiritual baptism, My opponent appears to be tripping over his own passages

My reply
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were SAVED BY WATER.
***Fact Peter is talking about physical water like the days of Noah.***

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
***Fact as we see here water baptism saves us.***
This is clearly a water baptism if you look at verse 20.

You stated this.
Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:
NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. "NOT of works" = "getting ourselves physically baptized does not save us" = "Not of yourselves", we can do nothing to save ourselves,

My reply.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
***Fact James says show me thy faith without thy works and I will show you my faith by my works.***

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
***Fact faith is built on works.***

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
***Fact you prove your faith by works.***

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
***Fact faith is nothing without works.***

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
***Fact your going to be judged according to your works.***

So as you can see here con did not no what he was saying when he said that the bible teaches that there is no more works based salvation. There for baptism is a work. I proved that the bible teaches that you show you faith by your works. Meaning that baptism is still necessary.

You stated this.
= "the eunuch had already been born of God" = spiritually baptized, due to his belief, ..1 John 5:1 says " Whosoever (presently) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is (has already been) born of God.= born again of the spirit., = second birth. - John 3:3 = "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God".= "the eunuch was born of Water"

My reply.
Just because he believed that Jesus was the Son of God does not make him spiritually baptized. Meaning if you cant prove that he was baptized at the point he believed, I am right.

You sated this.
we are baptized For ( = because) the remission of sins, again who can tell if we have been forgiven, who has the right to baptize other than God himself ? = No body, who are we told to trust other than Jesus for our salvation ?,, = "no body", We are not saved by ourselves, or anyone else claiming to be able to save us, other than Jesus,

My reply
Then what are we repenting for.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
***Fact baptism washes away sins.***

You stated this.
Allow me to end this post, with explaining a scenario.
according to my opponents beliefs, an Arab living this entire life in the desert alone with no water cannot get into heaven, because he cannot be physically baptized by another person in water, yet we read that this Arab can be given salvation in Rom 1:20 = "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

My reply.
False that is not what my beliefs are. Con obviously has no relationship with God. Otherwise he would trust God to provide water for that Arab to be baptized physically. Also that in no way says that Paul is teaching that a physical baptism is not necessary.
Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
***Fact all things are possible with God.***

You sated this.
Only religion which is totally dependant on their followers for self survival, preach the necessity of a physical water baptism.

My reply.
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
***Fact Peter commanded that the Gentiles to be baptized. He didn't say oh please be baptized, or you should be baptized. No. Peter said be ye baptized.We know its a physical baptism because of these other verses in Acts.***

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

As I open round three I would like to say that the con seems to be adding words to the bible by stating things that have in no way any thing to do with the verse he states.
I would also like to say that I have proven that the baptism after the church was born on the day of pentecost was with water.
the-good-teacher

Con

"how was the thief on the cross saved",? = No answer,
Pro choose to talk about a church, which has no relevance to this debate. did the Jews need physically baptized before Pentecost ? = yes, then what made this thief different ? = he believed and changed = no physical baptism, = point proven !
Here's another ! (Matt 15:28)
"Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour". = Made whole by faith = no baptism

Pro stated
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
***Fact faith is built on works.***

Reply
James doesn't tell the reader that "works" are required for salvation !
James States faith produces Good works, if faith is not producing, then it is because it's dead
The bible clearly teaches, that Jesus is the vine, and we (the believer) are the branches, the type of fruit (works) we produce is dictated by the sap (spirit) of the vine,
works outside the vine are of our own making = are as wood, hay, stubble, and will burn in the test of fire,
works of the vine = Gold Silver and precious stone, and will survive the test of fire.
This explains the "judgement of our works in the last day", (1 Cor 3:11-12) it will be divided.

Jesus tells us "Without me (the vine) ye can do nothing" (John 15:5) so unless we are receiving the sap (spirit) from the vine we can do nothing, we are not in the vine until we have been called by the father.Acts 2:39

Pro clearly contradicts = "***Fact faith is built on works.******Fact you prove your faith by works.***
Reply
If we prove we have faith by our works, then faith has to be the foundation for our works, so how can faith being the foundation for our works be built on our works ? , = beats me.

Here in this verse the father delivers us, - Col 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son": we have no input in delivering ourselves.

Does Pro feels that God is lacking something and is in need of help in delivering us to the Son ?, why else would Pro work to get HIMSELF" "baptized ? there is no commandment to be baptized NONE !

We know "we can do nothing" without Jesus,,and man in the flesh cannot please God, (Rom 8:8) so how can Pro please God by being baptized in the flesh ?

If we are saved through an act of work = includes "physical baptism", then we are clearly saved by works, yet "Eph 2:8/9" as provided in the previous round clearly tells us "not of works, but of Grace",,

We can also turn to - Rom 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work". = "if we are saved by our works, we have no Grace, if we have no Grace we are saved by works " = Rom 6:14 ".ye are not under the law, but under grace".. = we are "under Grace and our works are not required" = "point proven"

1 Cor.12:13, Gal 3:27; Baptism by the Holy Spirit. These passages teach an instantaneous, permanent, one-time "waterless baptism" of every child of God, by the Holy Spirit. This is the point in time that the child of God is "born again", 1 Pet 1:23, transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, Col. 1:13, sealed into union with Christ by the Holy Spirit, Eph. 1:13&14, and therefore permanently "identified" as "in Christ".
,
I invite my opponent to look at these verses with an open mind, which further proves my point.
Eph 1:13-14 "
13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(= "After we believe we are sealed" = Greek prefect tense cannot be reversed = salvation gained
1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" = Born again by the "word of God" which is "incorruptible Truth" = not a "physical baptism".
14 - Which is the earnest ( = Promise) of our inheritance (= everlasting life) until the redemption (= freedom) of the purchased possession, (= our bought soul) unto the praise of his glory. (= praise God for what HE has done )

= We give thanks and praise to God and God alone for our soul having been freed due to being purchased by God with his blood therefor is a possession of God, which has been promised everlasting life, not by being "physically baptized" but simply because "the Truth was believed" .. "and the Truth shall make you free" ( John 8:32) = "Jesus is the Truth" (John 14:6)

Gal 3:26-27 "For ye are all the children of God "BY FAITH" (= by belief) in Christ Jesus". (= in Truth) For as many of you as have been baptized (spiritually)into Christ have put on Christ. (spiritually) where does it say we are children of God through "physical baptism" = non existent, where does it say" by faith" (belief) ? = Gal 3:26-27 = "point proven"

= NO NEED FOR RELIGION AND THEIR FALSE TEACHINGS.= HAVING PEOPLE WRONGLY BELIEVE THAT RELIGION IS NEEDED TO BAPTIZE AND GAIN SALVATION FOR THE BELIEVER, WHEN THE TRUTH CLEARLY SHOWS IT'S RELIGION THAT IS IN NEED OF PEOPLE,

Pro states and refers to these scriptures for support for his argument.
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
***Fact Peter commanded that the Gentiles to be baptized. He didn't say oh please be baptized, or you should be baptized. No. Peter said be ye baptized.We know its a physical baptism because of these other verses in Acts.***

Reply.
Peter did not command the gentiles to be baptized, Peter commanded "them" = "the Jews" to baptize the Gentiles,
The Jews here and at that period of time did not accept the that they and they alone were no longer the only chosen people of God and rejected the Gentiles as being part of the same flock, the Gentiles here had been given the Holy Ghost, and wanted to perform an outward ritual of what God had done for them inward.

In 1 Pet 3:21, the Greek word translated "baptism" is the Greek word "baptisma", which is a NOUN, meaning the "THINGS" SIGNIFIED BY BAPTISM, it is NOT A VERB as the English reader would naturally assume! Peter is saying that "baptism doth save us (is presently saving us) ", meaning that the "things", or "Bible teachings", or "doctrines" CONCERNING baptism are now saving us. (http://www.blueletterbible.org...) What are those things, or teachings that baptism signifies? We are buried with Christ, sins washed away, raised in newness of life, the great doctrines of soteriology, or salvation, these are the "things" now saving us, not the verb, the ACT of baptism!

the natural man = "not born of God" cannot receive anything from the spirit = 1 Cor 2:14,
These believers were not "natural men", because as the scripture states clearly that they " received the Holy Ghost as well" = they had already been "born of God", so my opponent is wrongly using this scripture to bolster his cause, and as a result is providing ammunition for his own down fall. = "Point proven"

Scriptures were provided in the previous round and again in this round stating "NOT OF WORKS" why are these ignored ? a simple case of disbelief, ? = Pro has not been born of God ?, Pro clearly doesn't believe that Jesus did it all on the cross ?, Pro doesn't believe in the completed work of Jesus. ? = Pro's own works are added to the cross, = this is a fruit of religion, not the vine !

When we see the word "church" in the NT, it is taken from the Greek word "Ekklesia" = (God's) called out one's, it doesn't = "Religion", nor anything else,= we are called of God,= not call ourselves ! = God shall call. Acts 2:39
Debate Round No. 3
Acts2-38

Pro

Acts2-38 forfeited this round.
the-good-teacher

Con

Allow me again to bring you that all important winning link that Proves once and for all "baptism" as used in 1 Peter 3:21 is indeed a NOUN and not a VERB !

Here is the Verse (1 Peter 3:21)
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

Note !
"BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US"

And here is the link to prove it's not a Physical act but indeed a NOUN >
http://www.blueletterbible.org...

So please folks, if anyone tells you that a Physical baptism is required, you can tell them different, I can also tell you that if any religion includes the necessity of a physical baptism in their beliefs, then they are more often than not a "CULT", = Mormonism Catholicism and JW's. two if which were started by Freemasons, and all three have their own personal version of the bible.

I hope my opponent will now leave his false religion and goes on to seek a personal relationship with Christ, that way he will not get this reply when he meets his maker >

Matt 25:12 "But he (Jesus) answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not". ..
My name is Peter and it is my hope Jesus that will welcome me at the gates and say > Matt 16:18 "..I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter", ;-)
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Marauder 6 years ago
Marauder
Hey TGT, I know this is kind of spam to your debates comment section, but your setting dont let me send private messages to you. I have come here to ask if you would consider voting for Innomen in the DDO election? please do so quickly if you would consider doing so for time is running out to get the only theist canadite elected as DDO president.
Posted by the-good-teacher 6 years ago
the-good-teacher
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Posted by the-good-teacher 6 years ago
the-good-teacher
You're very welcome, but please, don't thank me, thank your maker !
Posted by thisoneguy 6 years ago
thisoneguy
Thank you Good Teacher !
Posted by the-good-teacher 6 years ago
the-good-teacher
Strong's concordance proves my case beyond doubt, baptism = a Noun here, not a verb, so this passage is teaching believing is saving us. ! , clearly a perfect example of a physical baptism not being required !,, I said in round one that we need to look at the Greek for understanding, and this was wrongly rebuked, we I just proved I was right on this also !
Posted by Acts2-38 6 years ago
Acts2-38
If you waiting for me to start the debate just post that you want me to start. So that we can have a debate.
Posted by Acts2-38 6 years ago
Acts2-38
the physical.
Posted by the-good-teacher 6 years ago
the-good-teacher
are you referring to the physical act of baptism ?, or the spiritual act of baptism ?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by thisoneguy 6 years ago
thisoneguy
Acts2-38the-good-teacherTied
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Total points awarded:07