The Instigator
Swordmaster
Pro (for)
Winning
36 Points
The Contender
PreacherAndy18000
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points

Baptism is the Point at which a believer becomes a Christian,

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 8 votes the winner is...
Swordmaster
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/13/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,500 times Debate No: 11730
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (8)

 

Swordmaster

Pro

I affirm that a person who believes that Jesus is the Christ, must be baptized into Christ in order to become a Christian and thus are saved. The baptism I am talking about is (one of water, Total immersion) Thereby no matter how much a person has emotions for God or Jesus, belief alone will not saved a person from their sins. (infant baptism is not in consideration here because a baby is not a believer, and has not sin). This debate is solely focused on adult baptism.

Accepted evidence in this debate, must be the Bible. Your understanding and Three quotes from three different sources per round and one of them must be from the bible.
Also at the end of rounds 2, 3, 4, 2 questions may be asked and must be answered by the opponent in the next round at the beginning.
When asking questions, They must be from the prior argument.
1st Round will be Today, the introduction given must state who you are and what you intend to prove and the beginning of your argument.

2nd round We must answer your given questions, produce any new evidence in this round, plus 2 questions may be asked of your opponent position

3rd round We must answer your given questions, produce any new evidence in this round, plus 2 questions may be asked of your opponent position

4th Round We must answer your given questions, produce any new evidence in this round, plus 2 questions may be asked of your opponent position

5th round We must answer any questions given, and produce the conclusion of our argument. (using only the evidence we produced in rounds 1-4)

My Argument begins
Hi my name is Tim, and my opponent name is Preacher Andy. I just want to thank Preacher Andy for agreeing to this debate. I am known as Sword master here. I live in Michigan, and am a father of 5 great Children. One is with Jesus and 4 are still here. I have the greatest wife in the world. I have went through a 2 years in a school of preaching, and acquired 130 credit hours. But if the foundation of knowledge I received is off, everything that I learned will be rancid to some degree. So if my opponent does not have the same level of training in the word that I have and he is factual in his beliefs, and I am not, My schooling would have done nothing for me, but make my beliefs rotten.
Therefore it is more important to look at what is being said, then to see who said it. In the same way the evidence we use (no matter the honor of the degree, or the popularity of the person we quote, if they are not factual in what they believe, they are as rotten and rancid as any false teacher.
Debates are fun, and can be healthy, if attitudes are right, but if attitudes are wrong, debates can be a weapon for Satan to use to destroy the belief of the weak in Christ. So as I approach this debate it is with an attitude of Honoring Christ, Creating belief in the non believer, and teaching the truth as God commands all Christians to do. I also want to honor my opponent Preacher Andy, for his conviction, and courage to stand up for what he believes, and honor me with this debate.
In this debate I must prove that
1. belief alone does not save.
2. the actions that saves a person from their sins must involve baptism.
3. I must also prove that anything less than baptism with the correct understanding, does not make one a Christian, but a follower of the blind, who leads ignorant people to hell with himself.
Once I have proved these facts, it will be impossible for anyone who has believed otherwise to continue in that belief, and know they are a Christian. So let's get started.
John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
This is a very important verse, we have seen it at ball games and in tracks from various denominations and it is probably the most famous verse in the bible.. Yet for all its fame, it is the most abused and misunderstood verse in the bible. I want to focus on the Word "believes"
The Greek word for belief is πιστεύω pisteuō and the root word of this Greek word is πίστις.
Now πίστις is a feminine noun, which means 1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it relating to God the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
From that word comes ; pisteuō This word that is used by Jesus in John 3:16, is a verb. Not a name of a trust or emotion, but Jesus used a word that describes an action.
Vines Greek dictionary.
Moultins lexicon
When pisteu; is parse out this is what we find: Tense: Present, Voice: Active, Mood: Participle.
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.
The Participle Mood represents "-ing and can be used either like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a "verbal noun."
Blue letter bible.

Here is the question, Why did Jesus use this particular Greek word? Jesus said pisteu, not the total noun form.
If Jesus did not want any wrong understandings why this word? Jesus is saying belief he want all believers to have is one of action. The Holy Spirit through the pen of James said James 1:22, But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Thus James and John are not contradictory but in line and in full agreement with each other. Jesus is saying in John to believe in action. James is talking to Jewish Christians and telling them the same thing,
IN Matthew Henry's commentary on James 1:22 he says, 3. We are taught what is to be done after hearing (v. 22): But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Observe here, (1.) Hearing is in order to doing; the most attentive and the most frequent hearing of the word of God will not avail us, unless we be also doers of it. If we were to hear a sermon every day of the week, and an angel from heaven were the preacher, yet, if we rested in bare hearing, it would never bring us to heaven. Therefore the apostle insists much upon it (and, without doubt, it is indispensably necessary) that we practice what we hear.
Jamison, Fausset, and Brown in their commentary on James 1:22." Qualification of the precept, "Be swift to hear": "Be ye doers . . . not hearers only"; not merely "Do the word," but "Be doers" systematically and continually, as if this was your regular business. James here again refers to the Sermon on the Mount ( Mat 7:21-29 )."
And finally Matt 7:21-23, 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Therefore When Jesus speaks of belief in John 3:16, he is talking about an obedient belief. One that is more the lip service. He never authorizes only lip service, So in matters of salvation, what did he authorize? Well tonight we will look at What actions/obedience, saves a person from their sins and prove it must involve baptism.
Resources used: The New King James bible, Moulton Greek lexicon, the blue letter bible, Vines Greek dictionary, and Mathews Henry's & James, Fausset, Brown commentaries on James.
Thank
PreacherAndy18000

Con

I will be arguing con for this debate baptism is not the point at which a believer becomes a christian. atlhough i agree with my opponent for baptism total immersion is valid and infant baptism is not in consideration here.

My argument
Hi my name is Andy i want to thank my opponent for Challenging me to debate this topic. I have probably not had as much formal training in these matters as my opponent but i have done self bible study for three years now. One area I am probably not as Skilled at as my opponent would be the greek. I agree debates are fun if conducted with right attitudes. Its funny so far you have quoted a few of my favorite commentators. I concur were supposed to have a belief of action although 2 points 1. So far nothing you've said proves baptism is a prerequisite to salvation. 2. Does action lead to salvation or is action the fruit of salvation John 15:4NKJV??????
Debate Round No. 1
Swordmaster

Pro

Round 2
In this round we have the opportunity to ask 3. questions to the others opponent. So preacher Andy Please answer:
1.Would you agree that a saving belief is an obedient belief?
2.At what point does belief save?
3.Please explain Matt 7:21?
Good evening. Tonight we will look at what saves, how it saves and when it saves a "believing individual"? So let's get started. In 1Co. 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
The Holy Spirit said through the pen of The Apostle Paul that Christ, Death, Burial, and Resurrection, is God Power to Save lost mankind from their sins. Paul would again say, in Ro. 1:16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Did you all realize that God cannot save anyone without the message of the cross, which is the Gospel of Christ? Even if you believe, repent of your sins, even confessing Jesus as Lord and are baptized, with out the cross, it is all in vain. For God cannot forgive sins without the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
•The [blue letter bible] says: the glad tidings of salvation through Christ
Paul would give a more defined definition of what the Gospel or the message of the cross is in 1 Co. 15:1-5," Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve."
In vs. 1 we see the word Gospel and in verses 3-4 Paul explains that the gospel is Christ; death, burial and resurrection. In vs.2 we see they received and stood on it, by this gospel they were saved. Friends that is why Paul would say in 1 Cor. 1: 17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect."
I would rather myself preach the death, burial. and resurrection any day. Baptism will always come latter, and there are other Christians that can baptize. But not all can preach or teach the word. This is what Paul is saying in 1Co. 1:17 and he is not saying in this verse baptism is not important. For we will look at what he said concerning baptism in other passages,
Now let's look at what he said concerning how many gospels there are. Gal. 1:6-9, "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."
Some Jewish Christian's were trying to get these churches in the Galatians area, to be circumcised and were saying that it was part of salvation. In their eyes these gentiles Christians could not be saved until they were also Circumcised. Paul gives a blanket statement to anyone who changes the gospel of Christ in the least. If an angel from God or any preacher, Priest, Rabbi, or anyone period, Preachers a different gospel then the one God had taught him, He would be accursed. That would Accursed means as a "Non Believer."
[Barnes commenary] says: Let him be accursed. Greek, anayema, (anathema.)…. It is not improperly here rendered "accursed," or "devoted to destruction."
Friends in this debate, if "I" or my opponent preaches a different gospel, God looks at us as a non believer. We both believe with all our heart that Jesus was born of a virgin and lived a sinless life and was nailed to a cross, and died there, that a soldier pierced his side after he was dead, and blood gushed out of his side. We believe he was buried in a tomb and laid there for three days and on the third day arose in the morning from the grave, and somewhere after 40 days arose from the grave. if we preach another gospel God will look at us as a non believer, and hell will be our fate.
You may be saying that is the gospel, Christ death, Christ Burial, Christ Resurrection, and his ascension into Heaven. I ask you to consider some other evidence that completes Paul's teaching on the Gospel.
Turn in your bibles to
Rom 10:16, But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
2 Thess. 1:8-9,"in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
1Pet 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
"Obey" according to [Vines Greek dictionary] means; (to harken to a command a) to obey, be obedient to, submit to.
Now it is a fact that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ happened, and Paul and Peter are saying in these passages, that it is something to be obeyed. So how do we obey it? Not only that but if you do not obey it, Hell fire awaits you!!!!
If God expects you to obey a fact, then he must make a way for you to obey it. You see if we had a red rose and God said obey it, God would have to make a way to do it, because if indeed we had a red rose, that is only a fact. In the same way, God has to make a way for us to obey the fact of the gospel. Paul teaches us that he did just that.
Rom 6:3-7, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
In verse 3, in Baptism we are baptized into Christ, and we are baptized into Christ death, Right?
In verse 4, In baptism we are buried with Christ into death, and that is our death for we died to self, sin and the world.
I must ask a question here, When did Jesus shed his blood according to John 19:32-33? In his death. You see when a believer is baptized into Christ death they get washed in the blood of Chrst.
Now for verse 7 teaches us that: he who died has been freed from sin!!!!!. Thus a believer in Christ is forgiven of their sins, at the point of Baptism. Belief only does not save until one obeys the gospel of Christ which is being buried with Christ into his death burial and resurrection.
Ed Wharton writes in his book [The Church of Christ Page 51 the last paragraph] "The Mark of the true church's identity is its teachings concerning what a man must obey to be made free from sin."
Thus there is more to the gospel of Christ then mentally believing it. It is something to be obeyed, and the way you obey it is, by being baptized.
Credits: Ed Wharton the Church of Christ, Blue letter bible, Barnes Commentary and Vines Greek dictionary
Thanks Preacher Andy for debating me it is an honor.
Tim
PreacherAndy18000

Con

1."Would you agree that a saving belief is an obedient belief?"
Of course saving belief leads naturally to obedience. But be aware you must have saving belief in Christ 1st if you didn't have saving belief in Christ you wouldn't bother to obey anything he said belief precedes actions.
2."At what point does belief save?"
At the point of confession Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
3."Please explain Matt 7:21?"
We must do the will of the father in heaven the works we do are evidence of whose children we are if their evil were children of the devil if their good were of god merely calling god are father isn't enough everyone likes to think of themselves as gods children although their not.

Besides your quote from Ed Wharton's Church of Christ your argument can be reduced to water baptism is obedience to the gospel you rip peter out of context so i'll ignore that now time for my questions
1. Why would someone have the desire to obey if they didn't first have saving belief.
2. I agree god wouldn't give us something to obey if he didn't give us a way to obey it and baptism isn't something all can be obedient to what about the theifon the cross he didn't have that ability to obey it.
Debate Round No. 2
Swordmaster

Pro

Round 3
Sword master Response: Andy again thanks for your participation in this debate from the bottom of my heart I feel honored to have this debate. Now I would like to take what you said peace by peace and give it the honor due it.

You said
1."Would you agree that a saving belief is an obedient belief?"
Of course saving belief leads naturally to obedience. But be aware you must have saving belief in Christ 1st if you didn't have saving belief in Christ you wouldn't bother to obey anything he said belief precedes actions.

Sword master response: At the top of this debate I talked about belief and used John 3:16, showing it is a verbal noun, a participle. It reads in the Greek …."That who so ever believing in him…" believeth does not bring out what Jesus said. Saving belief is a belief that obeys. So this is one of my 3 questions I will ask you.
1.In Acts 2:37 Were these people saved at this point?
2. Did they have saving faith in verse 37?
3.And in verse 47 were these people saved at this point?
4.If you agreed that they were not saved in verse 37, and they had saving belief, at what point were they baptized?

You Said:
My question
2."At what point does belief save?"

Your Answer;
At the point of confession Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
Question How does Romans 6:7 fit into Rom 10:9-10? In order to be saved, the gospel must be obeyed. 2 Thess. 1:8-9, You have totally ignored that passage and grab Rom 10:8-9 saying this is my verse, and it defeats your verse. Now I know you did not verbalize that. But it comes across that way. So how do we harmonize them? It cannot be saying you can be saved either by belief or obedience to the gospel through baptism? That would be contradicting other passages in the same book and invalidate God's power to save. Thus the Atheist would have a leg to stand on, when they say the bible contradicts itself. So please explain to me how Rom 6:7 "For he who has died has been freed from sins." Fits into Rom 10:9-10. I will go deeper into this in my next post, I just don't have the space in this post.
Next can an unrepented sinner, be saved? Does Rom 10:9-10 command repentance verbally?
How does Rom 10:9-10 Harmonize with Luk 13:3? In the same way you harmonize the command to repent, I can harmonize baptism.

You said:
My question
3."Please explain Matt 7:21?"
Your answer:
We must do the will of the father in heaven the works we do are evidence of whose children we are if their evil were children of the devil if their good were of god merely calling god are father isn't enough everyone likes to think of themselves as gods children although their not.

My response:
Question: Were these People aware of their spiritual state in Matt 7:21

You Said
Besides your quote from Ed Wharton's Church of Christ your argument can be reduced to water baptism is obedience to the gospel you rip peter out of context so i'll ignore that now time for my questions
1. Why would someone have the desire to obey if they didn't first have saving belief.

My response:
It would be illogical to obey God if a person is not believing as John 3:16 teaches.

You asked
2. I agree god wouldn't give us something to obey if he didn't give us a way to obey it and baptism isn't something all can be obedient to what about the theifon the cross he didn't have that ability to obey it

My response:
I have heard the theif on the cross argument all my life, and it is rather Simple I will answer this in 2 ways that harmonize.
1.Heb 9:16-17, For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Note which covenant was the thief on the cross under? The answer is simple, the covenant of Moses. When did the Covenant of Christ come into effect? According to the Hebrew writer, After Christ resurrection. Well then was the thief under the new testament of Christ? The bible teaches he was dead, therefore the thief on the cross was not a qualified candidate for Christian baptism, sense he was he died before the Christian era.
2.I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that when a person today is baptized into Christ, that he is baptized into his death, It would have been impossible for the thief to be baptized into the death of Christ, sense Christ has not yet died, or been buried or resurrected.
Not Lets Get More proofs that a person must be baptized into Christ in order to be d=saved. I want you all to turn your bible to Rom. 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." I want everybody to notice the Location, IN CHRIST!!!" ἐν this is the Greek characters, In English is looks like this en, It means IN, which indicates Location of the individual.
Strongs dictionary means "location. inside"
Where must one be located in order to be freed from the law of sin and death? Inside Christ, In Christ which say the same thing. 1Cor 1:30,But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- Now the same word in, which indicates Location of the individual is used here. The Point is Only those who are IN CHRIST JESUS our Lord are in a saved state. So How does one get into Christ to be in this saved state? Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. & Rom 6:3-4 "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life teach us how one gets into Christ."
The word Into, means the process of moving from one point into another, With a view towards, and to enter into. In both places baptism is what puts one into Christ, which teaches beyond a shadow of an doubt, that one enters Christ. If baptism puts one into Christ, (which it does) Than baptism of a believer in Christ is the point of their salvation."
Consider the Apostle Paul. (Please read verses 1-18) Correct my points if they are not facts.
1.Saul wanted to arrest Christians and got the authority to do so. Vs 1-3
2.Jesus appears to him on the road to Damascus, and identifies Himself as the person Paul is persecuting. Vs 4-5
3.Saul is terrified and asked Jesus what Jesus would have him do? Vs 6
4.Saul was three days without food or site. Vs 8-9
5.Jesus instructs Ananias and says Saul is Praying. Vs 11-12
6.Ananias went his way and did what God instructed him to. Vs 13-17
7.Paul is baptized for the remission of his sins according Acts 22:16, Paul fasted and prayed in his blind state and the guilt of his sin still remained until he was baptized.
Only one baptism Eph. 4:5, and that baptism is how one obeys the gospel of Christ, which is God's power to save, and how one gets into Christ, and Saul who became the Apostle Paul, had to be baptized, (even though he fasted and Prayed), He still needed to be baptized in order to get his sins forgiven, in order to get into Christ, and his saving belief, could not do it alone, but propelled him into obedience to the gospel that did save him.
The definations I have given were from Strongs and vines greek dictionary. These are the only 2 sources I will use this time.
in Christ
Tim
PreacherAndy18000

Con

1st I want to make one comment I don't want to get into the greek because I am not as good at it.

? 1 In Acts 2:37 Were these people saved at this point?
No.

? 2 Did they have saving faith in verse 37?
Kind of.

? 3 And in verse 47 were these people saved at this point?
Yes.

? 4 If you agreed that they were not saved in verse 37, and they had saving belief, at what point were they baptized?
???????

"Question How does Romans 6:7 fit into Rom 10:9-10? In order to be saved, the gospel must be obeyed. 2 Thess. 1:8-9, You have totally ignored that passage and grab Rom 10:8-9 saying this is my verse, and it defeats your verse. Now I know you did not verbalize that. But it comes across that way. So how do we harmonize them? It cannot be saying you can be saved either by belief or obedience to the gospel through baptism? That would be contradicting other passages in the same book and invalidate God's power to save. Thus the Atheist would have a leg to stand on, when they say the bible contradicts itself. So please explain to me how Rom 6:7 "For he who has died has been freed from sins." Fits into Rom 10:9-10. I will go deeper into this in my next post, I just don't have the space in this post.
Next can an unrepented sinner, be saved? Does Rom 10:9-10 command repentance verbally?
How does Rom 10:9-10 Harmonize with Luk 13:3? In the same way you harmonize the command to repent, I can harmonize baptism."

??????? I never said anything about harmonizing them their in two completly different Chapters besides you asked me at what point and i told you my belief plus when you asked me this question was before you even qouted romans 6:7 you asked me a question I answered it if you don't like my answer thats not my problem

"Question: Were these People aware of their spiritual state in Matt 7:21"
I don't know what does it matter???????

"It would be illogical to obey God if a person is not believing as John 3:16 teaches."
Exactly my point.

"I have heard the theif on the cross argument all my life, and it is rather Simple I will answer this in 2 ways that harmonize.
1.Heb 9:16-17, For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Note which covenant was the thief on the cross under? The answer is simple, the covenant of Moses. When did the Covenant of Christ come into effect? According to the Hebrew writer, After Christ resurrection. Well then was the thief under the new testament of Christ? The bible teaches he was dead, therefore the thief on the cross was not a qualified candidate for Christian baptism, sense he was he died before the Christian era.
2.I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that when a person today is baptized into Christ, that he is baptized into his death, It would have been impossible for the thief to be baptized into the death of Christ, sense Christ has not yet died, or been buried or resurrected.
Not Lets Get More proofs that a person must be baptized into Christ in order to be d=saved. I want you all to turn your bible to Rom. 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." I want everybody to notice the Location, IN CHRIST!!!" ἐν this is the Greek characters, In English is looks like this en, It means IN, which indicates Location of the individual.
Strongs dictionary means "location. inside"
Where must one be located in order to be freed from the law of sin and death? Inside Christ, In Christ which say the same thing. 1Cor 1:30,But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- Now the same word in, which indicates Location of the individual is used here. The Point is Only those who are IN CHRIST JESUS our Lord are in a saved state. So How does one get into Christ to be in this saved state? Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. & Rom 6:3-4 "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life teach us how one gets into Christ."
The word Into, means the process of moving from one point into another, With a view towards, and to enter into. In both places baptism is what puts one into Christ, which teaches beyond a shadow of an doubt, that one enters Christ. If baptism puts one into Christ, (which it does) Than baptism of a believer in Christ is the point of their salvation."
Consider the Apostle Paul. (Please read verses 1-18) Correct my points if they are not facts.
1.Saul wanted to arrest Christians and got the authority to do so. Vs 1-3
2.Jesus appears to him on the road to Damascus, and identifies Himself as the person Paul is persecuting. Vs 4-5
3.Saul is terrified and asked Jesus what Jesus would have him do? Vs 6
4.Saul was three days without food or site. Vs 8-9
5.Jesus instructs Ananias and says Saul is Praying. Vs 11-12
6.Ananias went his way and did what God instructed him to. Vs 13-17
7.Paul is baptized for the remission of his sins according Acts 22:16, Paul fasted and prayed in his blind state and the guilt of his sin still remained until he was baptized.
Only one baptism Eph. 4:5, and that baptism is how one obeys the gospel of Christ, which is God's power to save, and how one gets into Christ, and Saul who became the Apostle Paul, had to be baptized, (even though he fasted and Prayed), He still needed to be baptized in order to get his sins forgiven, in order to get into Christ , and his saving belief, could not do it alone, but propelled him into obedience to the gospel that did save him."

Response 1 Ha even worse if he's under the mosaic law then he would have to go through all the sacrifices and rituals for atonement thats even harder then baptism but thats not what he did so what did he do believe with his heart and confess with his mouth "9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved."Romans 10:9-10 (New Revised Standard)
Response 2 Ok lets take it one step at a time "34 "So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today." Matthew 6 (New Revised Standard) lets compare agreed we must obey the gospel "8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (New Revised Standard) the question is how do we obey the gospel?????? you said "3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For whoever has died is freed from sin." Romans 6:3-7 (New Revised Standard) I said "9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved." Romans 10:9-10 (New Revised Standard)
Debate Round No. 3
Swordmaster

Pro

You said:
1st I want to make one comment I don't want to get into the Greek because I am not as good at it.
My response: Andy Jesus said in John 17 twice Father I do not pray for these alone, but for all those who would believe in me through their word, that they may be one as I am in you and you are in me, that they may be one in us that the world may believe that you sent me. Debates are not about us, as to who won or lost, but what did we learn? Is our belief correct in the sight? Are we contributing to division or unity? Unity creates belief. This is why I debate, If what I believe is wrong, a good debater will bring that out. I would change, and the reason why is because Like those who thought they were saved in Matthew 7:21, and were not, I do not want to find out on that day, for it will be too late.
Now concerning using the Greek, In a debate if ones opponent is more skilled in one aspect and he uses that to bring out truth, That is as fair as can be. Look at round one, "Accepted evidence in this debate, must be the Bible. Your understanding and Three quotes from three different sources per round and one of them must be from the bible.
Also at the end of rounds 2, 3, 4, 2 questions may be asked and must be answered by the opponent in the next round at the beginning.
Now it does not matter if you like or agree with my sources, or if you like my questions or not, them are the rules that were agreed to. I have not figured out why you have not given your sources, and asked questions. So I am just complying to the established rules.
And finally I would think if you are wrong and I prove myself right that you would want to change and obey the truth of God. So if You are proved wrong would you change?
In my last questions I had asked you I made a mistake.
I asked
1 In Acts 2:37 Were these people saved at this point? You said "No."
I asked
2 Did they have saving faith in verse 37? You Said: "Kind of"
I asked
3 And in verse 47 were these people saved at this point? You Said Yes.
Here is my mistake, So I rewrote it, and this is what I should have said:
4 If you agreed that they were not saved in verse 37, and were saved in verse 47, what did they do that got them saved, between those verses?

I asked
"Question How does Romans 6:7 fit into Rom 10:9-10? In order to be saved, the gospel must be obeyed. 2 Thess. 1:8-9, You have totally ignored that passage and grab Rom. 10:8-9 saying this is my verse, and it defeats your verse. Now I know you did not verbalize that. But it comes across that way. So how do we harmonize them? It cannot be saying you can be saved either by belief or obedience to the gospel through baptism? That would be contradicting other passages in the same book and invalidate God's power to save. Thus the Atheist would have a leg to stand on, when they say the bible contradicts itself. So please explain to me how Rom 6:7 "For he who has died has been freed from sins." Fits into Rom 10:9-10. I will go deeper into this in my next post, I just don't have the space in this post.
Next can an unrepentant sinner, be saved? Does Rom 10:9-10 command repentance verbally?
How does Rom 10:9-10 Harmonize with Luke 13:3? In the same way you harmonize the command to repent, I can harmonize baptism."

You responded to the above by saying:
" I never said anything about harmonizing them their in two completely different Chapters besides you asked me at what point and I told you my belief plus when you asked me this question was before you even quoted Romans 6:7 you asked me a question I answered it if you don't like my answer that is not my problem"
Sword master response: We have the privilege of asking each other questions, I asked you to harmonize these passages. I never said that you said anything about harmonizing them. Now you are totally misunderstanding these passages and the theme to this book. This was a letter and just because Chapters were added to it, does not mean that each chapter has a beginning and an conclusion to the thoughts presented. In this book You produced a defense using Rom 10:9-10 as being what a person must do to be saved. What I was asking is Rom 6:7 and Luke 13:3 also have a lot to say about what one must do to become a Christian, and they must harmonize with Rom. 10:9-10. So if you understand how to harmonize them I am asking you to do so.
Question: IN Romans 6:7 when according to this Previous verses, is Paul saying they died?
Question: did these People Die with Christ when they were Baptism?
Question: Would you agree that In Rom 6:1-7, these People were believers and they were baptized into Christ Death, burial, and resurrection , At that Point they were forgive of their sins, and not before, For he who has died has been freed from their sins Rom 6:7?
Question: If not why Not?
Sword master asked:
"Question: Were these People aware of their spiritual state in Matt 7:21" You Answered: I don't know what does it matter???????
Sword master's response: Lets read Matthew 7:21-23, 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
1.Confession alone is not enough to save. Vs. 21
2.Obedience to the will of the father is a must. Vs 21
3.Many think they are saved because they Cast out demons and Prophesied.22
b.Think they done wonders in the sight of God.22
c.We can assume they confessed and believed in Jesus by the context.23
4.But even though they think they did all these thing or even if they did all these things, they are hell bound.
5.Yet Romans 10:9-10 " that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"
6.So what does it matter? Both verses teach a united principle, Believing is always ongoing in the truth of God's word. If one believes he will confess, he will repent, and he will be baptized into Christ into the forgiveness of his or her sins.
It matters Preacher Andy because many people are hell bound because they are preaching a gospel other then the Holy Spirit authorized in the scriptures, and Jesus said in Matthew "the blind lead the blind and they all fall off into the ditch together." Paul says in Gal. 1:8-9 that if you preach another gospel, you are hell bound. Son there are those who have a Zeal for God but not according to knowledge, that's bible. I have showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that Baptism saves a believer who confesses Christ and repents of his or her sins. How because it bring those who have been baptized into Christ in contact with the blood of Jesus. And we are washed in his blood Rev. 1:5
Now friends if I had time I could show that there are 25 things that happen to a person after they have been baptized and not before.
May God get the praise and glory for this debate.
In Christ
Sword master-
PreacherAndy18000

Con

"My response: Andy Jesus said in John 17 twice Father I do not pray for these alone, but for all those who would believe in me through their word, that they may be one as I am in you and you are in me, that they may be one in us that the world may believe that you sent me. Debates are not about us, as to who won or lost, but what did we learn? Is our belief correct in the sight? Are we contributing to division or unity? Unity creates belief. This is why I debate, If what I believe is wrong, a good debater will bring that out. I would change, and the reason why is because Like those who thought they were saved in Matthew 7:21, and were not, I do not want to find out on that day, for it will be too late.
Now concerning using the Greek, In a debate if ones opponent is more skilled in one aspect and he uses that to bring out truth, That is as fair as can be. Look at round one, "Accepted evidence in this debate, must be the Bible. Your understanding and Three quotes from three different sources per round and one of them must be from the bible.
Also at the end of rounds 2, 3, 4, 2 questions may be asked and must be answered by the opponent in the next round at the beginning.
Now it does not matter if you like or agree with my sources, or if you like my questions or not, them are the rules that were agreed to. I have not figured out why you have not given your sources, and asked questions. So I am just complying to the established rules.
And finally I would think if you are wrong and I prove myself right that you would want to change and obey the truth of God. So if You are proved wrong would you change?"

That may be but you have way to many rules. We should just go with the flow more thats all I am saying. Just have fun and not be so technical about it. And thats fine with the greek all I am saying is I am choosing not to get into that aspect of it. I would have posted my sources last time but I ran out of space.

"4 If you agreed that they were not saved in verse 37, and were saved in verse 47, what did they do that got them saved, between those verses?"
Their repentance and confession.

"We have the privilege of asking each other questions, I asked you to harmonize these passages. I never said that you said anything about harmonizing them. Now you are totally misunderstanding these passages and the theme to this book. This was a letter and just because Chapters were added to it, does not mean that each chapter has a beginning and an conclusion to the thoughts presented. In this book You produced a defense using Rom 10:9-10 as being what a person must do to be saved. What I was asking is Rom 6:7 and Luke 13:3 also have a lot to say about what one must do to become a Christian, and they must harmonize with Rom. 10:9-10. So if you understand how to harmonize them I am asking you to do so.
Question: IN Romans 6:7 when according to this Previous verses, is Paul saying they died?
Question: did these People Die with Christ when they were Baptism?
Question: Would you agree that In Rom 6:1-7, these People were believers and they were baptized into Christ Death, burial, and resurrection , At that Point they were forgive of their sins, and not before, For he who has died has been freed from their sins Rom 6:7?
Question: If not why Not?"

I understand but all I am saying is don't give me an argument then a bunch of questions about that argument let me respond to the argument 1st. its fine if you want to ask questions once in a while but not in every round after every point you sound more like your teaching a class then having a debate.

1. Romans 6:6-7 is describing what happens when a person gets saved not how one gets saved.
2. Luke 13:3 although you've ripped both of these verses out of context id say it means you must repent in order to be saved.

"Question: IN Romans 6:7 when according to this Previous verses, is Paul saying they died?
Question: did these People Die with Christ when they were Baptism?
Question: Would you agree that In Rom 6:1-7, these People were believers and they were baptized into Christ Death, burial, and resurrection , At that Point they were forgive of their sins, and not before, For he who has died has been freed from their sins Rom 6:7?
Question: If not why Not?"
1. Question is this talking about water baptism???????
2. Question is this talking about water baptism???????
3. aha read a few verses down "7 For whoever has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Romans 6 (New Revised Standard) We die to sin not by baptism but by considering ourselves dead to sin and using our bodies for god not for sin. Read further down still "23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6 (New Revised Standard)
Question can we work for a gift???????
Question Isn't baptism a work???????

"1.Confession alone is not enough to save. Vs. 21
2.Obedience to the will of the father is a must. Vs 21
3.Many think they are saved because they Cast out demons and Prophesied.22
b.Think they done wonders in the sight of God.22
c.We can assume they confessed and believed in Jesus by the context.23
4.But even though they think they did all these thing or even if they did all these things, they are hell bound.
5.Yet Romans 10:9-10 " that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"
6.So what does it matter? Both verses teach a united principle, Believing is always ongoing in the truth of God's word. If one believes he will confess, he will repent, and he will be baptized into Christ into the forgiveness of his or her sins.
It matters Preacher Andy because many people are hell bound because they are preaching a gospel other then the Holy Spirit authorized in the scriptures, and Jesus said in Matthew "the blind lead the blind and they all fall off into the ditch together." Paul says in Gal. 1:8-9 that if you preach another gospel, you are hell bound. Son there are those who have a Zeal for God but not according to knowledge, that's bible. I have showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that Baptism saves a believer who confesses Christ and repents of his or her sins. How because it bring those who have been baptized into Christ in contact with the blood of Jesus. And we are washed in his blood Rev. 1:5
Now friends if I had time I could show that there are 25 things that happen to a person after they have been baptized and not before."

1 Confessing Christ is the point at which one is saved.
2. Is it possible because this was judgement day Christ was talking about this was the first time they had confessed Christ many do work in the lords name and go to church although is that the same as "9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved." Romans 10 (New Revised Standard)

Sources
1.NKJV
2NRSV
3. WWW.BibleStudyTools.Com
Debate Round No. 4
Swordmaster

Pro

I want to thank Preacher Andy. It has been an honor to discuss this very important topic with you. It is so very important that we get this right. Souls hang in the balance as to what they accept as what one must do to become a Christian. We know that God warned us through the pen of Paul, and Luke, and Matthew, and John, over and over and over again that false teachers would come into the Church and outside teaching as doctrine the commandments of men, leading many to hell with them. Jesus Himself said, let the Blind lead the Blind and they both fall into the ditch together. The Blind that are leading are people who profess to be from God and yet are ignorant of his word, and the people who follow the blind are ignorant themselves .
I affirm that a person who believes that Jesus is the Christ, must be baptized into Christ in order to be saved. The baptism I am talking about is (one of water, Total immersion) Thereby no matter how much a person has emotions for God or Jesus, belief alone will not saved a person from their sins.
I have Proved beyond a shadow of an doubt that to be true. Consider the evidence I have provided. John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
My opponent agreed that saving belief was an action as he said: "I concur were supposed to have a belief of action" He went on to say: "2. Does action lead to salvation or is action the fruit of salvation John 15:4NKJV. But I set out in my opening argument to prove that saving belief was an action and I proved that Point.

In answering the second question above, If saving belief is an action, then he answered his own question, actions leads to salvation!!! If this is not true, then Belief of could not happen at any point, not before or after salvation. Belief would simple be a Noun. But the facts are far different then that.
I produced the evidence that the Greek word was pisteu; is parse out this is what we find: Tense: Present, Voice: Active, Mood: Participle.
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.
The Participle Mood represents "-ing and can be used either like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a "verbal noun."
Therefore John 3:16 should read, "For God so Loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believing in him should not perish, but have ever lasting life." I have a verse That calls belief a work but according to the rules I cannot bring up any new evidence at this point.
This agrees with other words of Jesus that I pointed out. Matt 7:21-23, 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
I had asked my opponent in round 2,"Would you agree that a saving belief is an obedient belief?"
He said: "Of course saving belief leads naturally to obedience. But be aware you must have saving belief in Christ 1st if you didn't have saving belief in Christ you wouldn't bother to obey anything he said belief precedes actions."
My response in this closing phase: Here he seems confused and a fence straddle, For he admits that saving belief is one of action, but not before salvation. HMMM, John Calvin is the author of this line of thinking.
One rule of biblical hermeneutics is; the bible does not contradict itself, and a second rule is we must take all verses that pertain to a subject and draw our conclusion from them. For example, His pet verse is Romans 10:9-10, "At what point does belief save?" I ask him, He responded in round 2, "At the point of confession Romans 10:9-10." Preacher Andy does not understand his pet verse, for this is not saying all you have to do is believe and confess period. Jesus said himself in Luke 13:3, except you repent you will all like wise perish." Where is that in the above passage? The only way you can harmonize this passage with the other is to keep it in context, This verse is not saying belief only? And it is not saying one must not repent of their sins before they are saved. It is not saying that is a verbal confession. But what it is saying is, the biggest barrier the Jews had was having a zeal for God but not according to knowledge, vs 2, and that they had to realize that the Law had ended and that righteousness is to everyone who believe "believing" same word as that of John 3:16, and we already agreed that this was an action word. So by the time we get to vs 9-10 it is talking about action of belief and confession.
What action of Belief and confession must we do? Well the answer is given in a question I perposed to Preacher Andy. Let me set up the question, I had asked him if the Jews in were saved in Acts 2:37, and he said NO, and I ask him if they were saved in verse 47 and he said Yes, so then I ask him what did they do between verses 37 and 47, and he said confess. I must agree, in verse 38 it tell us what that confession was. Vs. 38 "Then Peter said to them, Repent and let every one of you be baptized upon, (by the authority of) the name of Jesus Christ, into the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." That is the great confession that Paul is talking about in Rom 10:9-10. Notice Peter in Acts 2 quotes from Joel, and in verse 21, "and it shall come to pass that all who call on the name of the Lord Shall be saved."
Now why did Peter not say Call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved? Because when a believer who has repented of his sins and is baptized is calling on the name of the Lord. Don't believe me, read Acts 22:16, "and now why are you waiting arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, Calling on the name of the Lord." Paul's own words teach that baptism is calling on the name of the Lord.
Therefore I submit to you, Rom 10:9-10 is confirming one must be baptized in order to be saved, for baptism into Christ is the great confession, calling on the name of the Lord. This make sense when you consider what Paul had previously written in the same letter, Rom 6:7, "For he who died is freed from sin", and before that he said Rom 6:3-4, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Keeping verse 7 of this chapter in context, Paul is saying that those Christian died when they were baptized and that is in keep with Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16, the reason sins are forgiven is were died to self sin and the world with Christ and it was in his death is where shed his blood. As Proof text I quoted John 19:33-34. This is the great confession, this is believing that saves, because I obeyed him in faith, not doubting but know that he has the authority and ability to do so.
I started out by saying I must prove these 3 Objectives:

1.belief alone does not save.
I have prove this to the point that my opponent agrees with me.
2. the actions that saves a person from their sins must involve baptism.
I have given numerous scriptures that have proven this point, over and over again.
3. I must also prove that anything less than baptism into Christ insures that a person is not saved.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt after proving one and two, I have proven this also.

I have done all of this and again thanks
PreacherAndy18000

Con

Conclusion

My opponent seems to imply over and over again I am some sort of false teacher

" We know that God warned us through the pen of Paul, and Luke, and Matthew, and John, over and over and over again that false teachers would come into the Church and outside teaching as doctrine the commandments of men, leading many to hell with them. Jesus Himself said, let the Blind lead the Blind and they both fall into the ditch together. The Blind that are leading are people who profess to be from God and yet are ignorant of his word, and the people who follow the blind are ignorant themselves ."

Although I disagree with him on this issue I haven't tried to imply that about him.

He asked me about my view on at what point a person becomes saved and I told him at the point of confession. When one confesses to god they need Christ. And repent of there sins adding to the work of Christ saving us by his gospel is a works. And baptism is a work I argued this in my last round and it was completly ignored.

One last question to you

"9 But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." Romans 8:9 (New Revised Standard)

Teaches if we have the holy spirit we belong to Christ were saved

"44 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said, 47 "Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they invited him to stay for several days."

???????? Were these people saved when V 44 or 48????????
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by LuvMyWings 6 years ago
LuvMyWings
PreacherAndy said"44 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said, 47 "Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they invited him to stay for several days."

???????? Were these people saved when V 44 or 48????????

Actually even though the Gentiles had received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, this was a sign for the Jews that the Gentiles were now accepted by God. The Jews would have no reason to think the Gentiles, being baptised, could be saved, because they were not God's chosen. When it was seen by their own eyes that God now accepted these people, the question was asked. "Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Then he ordered them to be baptized......This was a [roving the Gentiles were now accepted occasion and they still had to be Baptized. They were saved after baptism.
Posted by Servant_of_God 6 years ago
Servant_of_God
You still have failed to prove that the verse you just quoted said we are saved by faith alone. It just is not there.

And on top of that you have not answered the Bible examples of those who are called faith people I gave in a earlier post. True Biblical faith has always included actions. I totally believe that Jesus shed His blood in His death and God uses baptism as the way to come into contact with the blood that washes away our sins.

And if baptism is commanded and always comes before the saving action then why are you arguing with the Word of God? I understand what my job is as a messenger of God. I am to go and preach the gospel. That is my job. When I preach the gospel I preach Jesus. When I preach Jesus I must preach baptism as well. If not then why did the eunuch insist to be baptized when they came to a lot of water while they were traveling? Notice what Philip did in verse 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.

So Philip preached Jesus and in the very next verse we read, As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

What a great question. Now notice what happened. "And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him."

This was a proper question to ask when Jesus is being preached. You see this includes baptism because our baptism into Christ is the connection to be added to the body of Christ and have our sins washed away. Acts 2:47, Acts 22:16 and Galatians 3:27. By the way, Galatians 3:27 is the ONLY verse in the entire New Testament that uses the words INTO and tells us exactly how to get into Christ. I admit that nothing matters without belief, but never belief alone. We must also repent, confess, and after our immersion into Christ we must remain faithful until death.
Posted by nickthengineer 6 years ago
nickthengineer
James 2 stresses the importance of living the Christian life instead of just claiming to believe, but it says nothing of these actions directly resulting in being saved as you have claimed. Lastrequest is correct, the Bible is extremely clear that we are saved by faith alone, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; that not of yourself, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Posted by Servant_of_God 6 years ago
Servant_of_God
I need to correct my last post. I said, "These are enough to prove that all faith people did more then believe, they also acted upon that belief. You can not show me one example of someone considered a faith person who just had faith alone with no belief."

I ment to say You can not show me one example of someone considered a faith person who just had faith alone with no works.

Thanks
Posted by Servant_of_God 6 years ago
Servant_of_God
lastrequest

You do realize that what you said you can not prove according to the word of God? There is only one place that uses the two words together side by side and that is James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

All through the Bible we find what true biblical faith really is. It is not what you purport it to be. Hebrews 11 is a great place to learn what true biblical faith really is.

7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark ...
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed ...
9 By faith he lived as an alien....
11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive...
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac...
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau...
21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph...
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden ...
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,...
27 By faith he left Egypt,...
29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea....

These are enough to prove that all faith people did more then believe, they also acted upon that belief. You can not show me one example of someone considered a faith person who just had faith alone with no belief.

Therefore your argument is a false one.
Posted by lastrequest691 6 years ago
lastrequest691
Faith in Christ alone saves You

Rest of them are just formalities
Posted by Servant_of_God 6 years ago
Servant_of_God
I really enjoyed this debate. I would like to add to this argument about baptism being a work. I find it somewhat amazing that while I agree that baptism is a work I would like to add belief is a work as well. When Jesus' apostles asked "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" This was in John 6:28. This is from Jesus' own mouth. Notice verse 29, Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

So I agree both, belief and baptism is a work. But the question then becomes, are they a work of man or a work of God. I submit that the difference between the two, a work of man and work of God, is a work of man is not found in the word of God and the work of God is found in the word of God as approved by God.

I submit that belief, repentance, confession, baptism and continuing to live a faithful Christian life are all works of God. God, in eternity planned them for us to do. This way not one of us can take credit for saving ourselves. Notice Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

So to take anything that God said for us to do and credit them to man or as a work of man is sinful. Just ask a question, is belief a command of God? Yes it is for John 3:16 says so. Is repentance a command from God? Yes it is for Luke 13:3 says so. Is confession a command from God? Yes it is for Matthew 10:32-33 says so. Is baptism a command of God? Yes it is for Acts 2:38 says so. Is remaining faithful a command of God? Yes it is for Revelation 2:10b says so. God planed these good works before hand so that we should walk or do them?

To me it is so very simple. God said it and I'll obey it because I believe Him.
Posted by nickthengineer 6 years ago
nickthengineer
I guess you're already busy with two of these. Let me know if you want a third.
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