The Instigator
Yustos
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
annanicole
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an experience and is not guaranteed by faith in Jesus for atonement.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/7/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,847 times Debate No: 24115
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

Yustos

Pro

First Position:
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a spiritual experience with external evidence not just an internal transformation.

Point 1: The two primary expressions for the giving of the Spirit have to do with the way water affects something, pointing to an experiential reality. The first is "immersion" (baptism) and was placed on the backdrop of John the baptists ministry, who was constantly dunking people fully under the water. He made it clear that just as he was physically dunking people under the water and they came up soaking wet, in the same way Jesus would dunk people in the power of the Holy Spirit, leaving them demonstrably affected (Matt. 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:33). This also points to the individual nature of the Spirit Baptism. John individually baptized each person who came to him. The same will be true of every one who comes to Jesus. The second biblical term used for the baptism of the Holy Spirit is people being "filled" with the Holy Spirit. This again uses the concept of liquid or some substance which can fill a container. Again, the language used beckons the mind towards an experience.

Point 2: The baptism of the Holy Spirit was clearly a demonstrable experience with external evidence in every Spirit Baptism account in the book of Acts. Acts 2, 4, 8, 10, and 19 all either detail the actual external evidence or point to a demonstrable experience by the reaction of the people around them.

Second Position:
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not guaranteed to take place when a person believes in the Lord Jesus for the remission of their sins.

The account of the salvation and Spirit Baptism of the Samaritan community in Acts 8 is significantly insightful to see the possibility of salvation and repentance towards the Lord without a further experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It also shows that the Apostles expected the believers there to have a spiritual and evidential experience of the Holy Spirit when they came to faith. The basic story goes like this (Acts 8:4-25):
- Persecution starts happening in Jerusalem
- Philip goes to Samaria and preaches
- people believe and are water baptized upon their confession of faith
- The Holy Spirit does not fall on them in a demonstrable way (most likely because of the corruption of Simon the magician)
- Peter and John come and lay hands on them and then the Holy Spirit falls
- Simon the magician sees (a demonstrable experience) of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and wants to buy the ability to do that.
- Peter condemns Simon's actions and corruption
- Peter and John remain in Samaria and preach to more villages

The primary point in our argument from this passage is that these believers in Samaria were true and sincere in their faith. There is nothing in the passage that points to them having an incomplete faith. In fact, the Apostles do not need to re-baptize them since their baptism was a true baptism of faith in Jesus (unlike when Paul has to baptize the disciples in Ephesus because they were baptized into John's baptism of repentance). Instead, the Apostles only need to lay their hands on them and the Holy Spirit demonstrably fell on them with evidence that attracted Simon the Magician (who was interested in "great power"). One could argue that had the Apostles not come down from Jerusalem to impart the Holy Spirit, those people would have been like many in the church today, water baptized and having a true faith in Jesus but never having experienced the experiential reality of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
annanicole

Con

I'll concede. I didn't notice that someone limited the reply to 1,000 characters. I typed a reply, and the first two paragraphs took up 1,000 characters. In fact, if you'll count up, this concession took over 200 by itself.
Debate Round No. 1
Yustos

Pro

Yustos forfeited this round.
annanicole

Con

Same as above
Debate Round No. 2
Yustos

Pro

Yustos forfeited this round.
annanicole

Con

Conceded when I noticed that I was to respond to a 3,000+ character opening statement with a 1,000 character reply. LOL! Shoulda noticed "what was up" before agreeing. Maybe will try it again on a level playing field and see how it goes.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bookwyrm 4 years ago
bookwyrm
Understandable, that's why I asked instead of just accepting. I do know what you're talking about, though. I grew up in church and didn't stop believing until I was about 23. I am curious, though, about this external evidence you mentioned, as I have never seen any such evidence.
Posted by Yustos 4 years ago
Yustos
Sorry Bookwyrm! As an athiest, you most likely have no real idea what I am talking about. I am not speaking about water baptism but a Spiritual encounter that takes place after a person comes to faith in Jesus, which is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I would only want to debate this issue with a believer. Thanks for your interest though
Posted by bookwyrm 4 years ago
bookwyrm
What external evidence is there that baptism does anything? Also, I'm willing to accept this debate, but I wanted to make sure you don't mind debating an atheist. It seems like the kind of debate that you want someone who believes in God, but just has a different opinion about baptism than you. Just so you know, I will come at the debate with evidence, not just saying there is no God so anything about Him must be false. I agree that is no kind of argument
Posted by ScottyDouglas 4 years ago
ScottyDouglas
Can argue with you. I agree.
Posted by Matthew3.14 4 years ago
Matthew3.14
I would take up this debate if the word limit is put to around 1000
Posted by bennourse 4 years ago
bennourse
Can I have a little clarification on what you're arguing?
Posted by bennourse 4 years ago
bennourse
Try changing it to an "open" debate, that'll probably do it.
Posted by bennourse 4 years ago
bennourse
No, I mean, I cannot physically start to debate against you because it says "You cannot accept this challenge because you do not match the Instigator's age and/or rank criteria". So you have to edit who can take you up on the challenge in order for me to be able to start.
Posted by Yustos 4 years ago
Yustos
Well what in particular would you want to be different? What criteria is demanding?
Posted by bennourse 4 years ago
bennourse
I'm not sure either D:
No votes have been placed for this debate.